A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[thyname]

Wouldn’t this switch work better for this purpose?

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&O=&Q=&ap=y&c3api=1876%2C{creative}%2C{keyword}&gclid=Cj0KCQjwg7HPBRDUARIsAMeR_0gznS13lzlxpTg7h4FJuPntedhyLwrE5_7jisdVHLF1wv5k9yb05WEaAl1YEALw_wcB&is=REG&m=Y&sku=832803

 

it has QoS, Gigabit, and metal ports 

[lmitche]

22 hours ago, lmitche said:

Thanks John, I'll check the safety ground.

Yep, ground wires on the modules ring through to safety ground on the IEC inlet.

[octaviars]

6 hours ago, thyname said:

Wouldn’t this switch work better for this purpose?

 

It all depends on how the ports magnetictransformers are aranged and coupled together to the groundplane. This will be different between different switches.

 

There is no way to tell if it will stop leakage between ports or stop leakage from the PSU without measure, it is not something you can just open up a switch and look inside as the magnetictransformers may be coupled different and the connections to ground may be done diffrently. 

 

This is one type of connectio on a 10/100 magnetictransformer but a gigabit one may be different. 

 

 

 

[charlesphoto]

On 10/21/2017 at 3:22 PM, Bruce Orr said:

 

I created 2 of John’s leakage ‘firewalls’ today. You’re right the space to insert both the solid 14 gauge and ground wires is tight. You can simply trim the ground wire strand by half or 3/4 and insert what’s left. That was the hardest part!  It was easy with John’s “how to” instructions and photos! 

Built some myself (not sure if I hear a difference but it was fun and cheap). Easiest way to get a solid 14 and a stranded 18 together is to put the stranded in the hole first and then the solid. 

 

Also, I might be wary of using one of these adapter stacks where the quality of the cable really counts - as in right before a Rendu. Any thoughts on that?

[afrancois]

14 hours ago, thyname said:

Wouldn’t this switch work better for this purpose?

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&O=&Q=&ap=y&c3api=1876%2C{creative}%2C{keyword}&gclid=Cj0KCQjwg7HPBRDUARIsAMeR_0gznS13lzlxpTg7h4FJuPntedhyLwrE5_7jisdVHLF1wv5k9yb05WEaAl1YEALw_wcB&is=REG&m=Y&sku=832803

 

it has QoS, Gigabit, and metal ports 

That's the one that is modified by AQVOX.

[thyname]

4 minutes ago, afrancois said:

That's the one that is modified by AQVOX.

 

Good! Another reason to apply JohnS' mods to this switch?

[Johnseye]

The first part of my SR7 review is here.  This provides an overview as well as some opinions of the 12v DR and 19v rail I'm using for my server.  A second post will follow after I adjust the second rail to match the LPS-1 for a more accurate comparison.

 

 

[Forehaven]

On 6/8/2017 at 6:52 PM, austinpop said:

I thought it might help to clarify the network topologies that are such an integral part of this thread. In particular, there is a lot of confusion about the role of a switch with sCLK-EX mods. Perhaps these diagrams will make this clearer.

 

The Traditional Topology

 

This is what most of us were using prior to the initial post from Roy that introduced the "direct" connection.

 

 

Traditional Switched Topology

 

This is just a variation of the traditional topology, recognizing that many of us have a switch between the endpoint and/or music server and the router. Note: this switch's role is the traditional role of a switch - to expand connectivity to more devices.

 

 

Direct (Bridged) Topology

 

This is the topology that Roy introduced in the first post of his thread, where he claimed to have discovered a significant SQ benefit. Subsequently, many readers of this thread, myself included, have validated this finding in our own setups.

 

 

Direct with reclocking switch Topology

 

Finally, this is the topology that introduces a switch in the direct path, but note: this switch's role is not to provide expanded connectivity. It merely exists to exploit a free clock tap from an sCLK-EX board, and provides another reclocking of the Ethernet stream. Roy, I, @limniscate, and possibly others were surprised by the level of SQ improvement we heard. Anyone interested should go back and search posts by our handles for more details.

 

 

I hope this brings some clarity to the topologies and terminology frequently discussed on this thread. Please note - the diagrams shown are simplified - there are many variations on each theme, but these pictures distill the ideas into as few as I could manage.

I want to try this 'bridging'.  So it's only a matter of bypassing the expansive switch and going from router to server pc?

 

Yet the instructions here:  https://m.windowscentral.com/how-set-and-manage-network-bridge-connection-windows-10

So are the two networkable bridges, one from router and one from the server pc?

Sorry, I'm a bit dense

[Johnseye]

12 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

I want to try this 'bridging'.  So it's only a matter of bypassing the expansive switch and going from router to server pc?

 

Yet the instructions here:  https://m.windowscentral.com/how-set-and-manage-network-bridge-connection-windows-10

So are the two networkable bridges, one from router and one from the server pc?

Sorry, I'm a bit dense

 

2 NICs, one bridge created from the two.  Router to NIC 1 on PC via ethernet.  NIC 2 on PC to sMS-200 via ethernet.  Configuring Windows to bridge both NICs simply allows for connectivity to pass through the two NICs as if it were one.

[Forehaven]

50 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

2 NICs, one bridge created from the two.  Router to NIC 1 on PC via ethernet.  NIC 2 on PC to sMS-200 via ethernet.  Configuring Windows to bridge both NICs simply allows for connectivity to pass through the two NICs as if it were one.

Oh, I actually need to pc's/nic's to make this work.  Ugh.  Thanks Johnseye

[Johnseye]

2 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

Oh, I actually need to pc's/nic's to make this work.  Ugh.  Thanks Johnseye

 

You would use your "Intel i7-6700 PC/Windows 10 Pro and Audiophile Optimizer" PC's NICs to create the bridge. 

[acaro]

Is it possible to bridge a laptop by using one of those usb to ethernet dongles?  Also, can you only bridge Win 10 with the Pro version?  I have the Home version.  Thanks 

[lmitche]

2 minutes ago, acaro said:

Is it possible to bridge a laptop by using one of those usb to ethernet dongles?  Also, can you only bridge Win 10 with the Pro version?  I have the Home version.  Thanks 

Yep, usb dongles will work and win10 home should work just fine.

[Forehaven]

Ah, I saw those and dismissed them.  Good to know.

 

[zephyr24069]

On 10/21/2017 at 5:57 PM, austinpop said:

Another intriguing master reference clock:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/37332-teac-10mhz-clock-cg-10m/

 

BTW - the trolls are already crawling over that thread, so suggest we discuss it here.

 

I don't know how to compare the specs "High accuracy specifications with frequency temperature characteristics within +/- 3 ppb and frequency accuracy within ± 0.1 ppm" with the phase noise specs of the Ref 10 and Cybershaft.

 

If anyone knows how to do the conversion, please educate us. @zephyr24069 , your thoughts?

Apologies for the late replies here and elsewhere on the forum!

 

Temperature variation is the enemy of quartz and other crystals when used for frequency generation.  This pervades the master clocking topic as well as other areas that utilize crystals, particularly quartz as an oscillator; this is even true in watches. The highest quality watches with quartz crystals have often included some means of temperature dissipation/stabilization so that the watch works correctly regardless of the weather/temperature, on-body/off-body, etc...

 

I am not aware of any way to specifically convert the temperature accuracy numbers above to frequency accuracy but am sure that the frequency accuracy/stability of the CXO or OCXO module in question is influenced in part by the temperature stability.  

 

[R1200CL]

On 17.10.2017 at 10:22 PM, JohnSwenson said:

It seems a lot of people are getting confused by my posts on the subject of network leakage, I will try and state things in a more concrete manor.

 

This is relating to a switch which is what your network endpoint into your audio system is connected, this may be streamer (microRendu etc) a laptop or other computer Mac mini, PC etc). We shall call this the audio endpoint (AE)

 

Leakage current can get into the AE through the switch in two ways, from the power supply powering the switch, or from the cable connected to the rest of the network. The leakage coming from the network comes from the SMPS powering THOSE devices.

 

If the switch connected to the AE is powered by an SMPS, grounding the negative of output of the SMPS will shunt the leakage from that supply, but the leakage from the NETWORK will still go through. There is one exception, see the next section.

 

IF the switch is one of FS105 and FS108, grounding the negative of the supply will get rid of BOTH the leakage from the SMPS AND the network leakage. NOTE, this ONLY happens for these two switch types. Grounding the supply to a different switch type does NOT block network leakage.

 

If you are powering a switch from a linear supply, this gets rid of the leakage going through the PS of the switch, but NOT the network leakage. The only way to get rid of the network leakage is to use one of the above switches AND ground the negative of the supply powering the switch, no matter WHAT that supply might be. (linear, SMPS, LPS-1 etc)

 

If you are using an LPS-1 to power the switch, see the above rules for ANY supply. ANY supply includes the LPS-1. Thus IF you have one of the two named switches and you are powering the switch from an LPS-1, you must ground the output of the LPS-1 in order to block the network leakage. This will only work with one of those two switches. Grounding the output of the LPS-1 will NOT block leakage if you are using some other switch. It will not help if the LPS-1 is driving some other type of device. Thus there is no reason to ground the output of an LPS-1 if it is NOT driving one of the above named switches.

 

There is one exception to the last point. IF the LPS-1 is driving an ISO REGEN there can be a situation where the whole audio system is floating with respect to earth ground and a charge can build up which can show up as clicks and pops. ONE earth ground in such a system can alleviate this. ONE way to do this is to ground the negative of the supply powering the ISO REGEN. If this supply is an LPS-1 then you can try grounding the output of the LPS-1 to see if it fixes the clicks and pops.

 

Grounding the INPUT to the LPS-1 can help in other situations by shunting the high impedance leakage.

 

I hope this makes things clear, I'm running out of ways to say this.

 

John S.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

John

 

Is both high impedance noise/leakage as well as low impedance noise/leakage blocked by this very nice tweak ? (Using the mention devices of cause).

 

I think you only mentioned high impedance noise/leakage. 

Also I hope we in this setting means the same issue by using the words leakage and/or noise. 

 

I’ve noticed the Cisco you tested did slightly better as I think you stated in another post it did a totally block. 

It would be interesting if you could test the Cisco SF110D-05 as it seems to still be widely available and cheaper than those old ones offered on eBay. and hopefully that switch obtain the same results as the already tested Cisco.  Since it’s a 10/100 only, it may even be more suitable for our use. 

 

Maybe someone can send John a sample ?

(If he accept).

 

 

I’m just adding this post under for reference for others to read if needed. 

 

 

[R1200CL]

Edit to post above. It seems John has answered here:

 

 

 

But then the question is how to get rid of the low impedance leakage currents ?

 

Will the LPS-1 maybe cover that as you at the same time shunt DC out from LPS-1 to ground. (On that FS105/108 switch)

[Cornan]

16 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Edit to post above. It seems John has answered here:

 

 

 

But then the question is how to get rid of the low impedance leakage currents ?

 

Will the LPS-1 maybe cover that as you at the same time shunt DC out from LPS-1 to ground. (On that FS105/108 switch)

 

I am currently trying to figure that out. I have experimented with dual ultra-low noise LT3045 voltage regulators in series (0.7v-1v drop-down) and will also compare it with shunt regulators, LM317 and ELNA silmicII 1000uF caps in the mix to hopefully find the best solution how to block out any low impedance leakage that are transfered between the PSUs and the powered devices. So far the LT3045 in series have proved to be a step-up in with a more noise free SQ in my setup!  

 

[Johnseye]

For anyone looking to purchase a Netgear FS-105 v2, it is important to note that the barrel of that switch's SMPS is not 5.5 x 2.5 mm.  I just got mine, and am going to have to find another adapter size if I want to use this switch.  I'll probably go into Fry's and see if I can find out the barrel size.  I couldn't find anything online.  The barrel size for FS-105 v3 is 5.5 x 2.5 mm, but uses 12v instead of 7.5, in which case makes it more challenging if wanting to use an LPS-1 to power it.

 

I sent my Netgear GS-105 to John for testing and he'll have it today or tomorrow.  This is the gig version.

[R1200CL]

11 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

The barrel size for FS-105 v3 is 5.5 x 2.5 mm, but uses 12v instead of 7.5, in which case makes it more challenging if wanting to use an LPS-1 to power it.

 

My understanding is that there is no benefit what so ever to use the LPS-1 with the JS Ground Tweak (the JSGT ?)

 

And we’re only taking about that specific use. 

 

I can add that I for a long time have used. D-Link DES-100D quite old version powered by the LPS-1, and I think it’s giving small but good SQ lift. Have not done the JSGT yet, as I’ve just bought 4 off the FS105 V3, and would like to do the JSGT as a compartment between those two switches. 

 

Also the Cisco SF110 is widely available, so I will probably add that one to and test. That switch was EOL 2015. 

 

I don’t expect much difference in these test, but at least the JSGT will save me a LPS-1. 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

sent my Netgear GS-105 to John for testing and he'll have it today or tomorrow.  This is the gig version.

 

Which verson ? 

 

There exist a V2? version that looks different. Even has a reset button. Probably the correct number is GS-105E. It seems to have web interface as well as power off unused ports. 

 

Edit:

Is seems to exit a 105 V5 and a 105E V2 (with of cause lower V number also possible)

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

Which verson ? 

 

There exist a V2? version that looks different. Even has a reset button. Probably the correct number is GS-105E. It seems to have web interface as well as power off unused ports. 

 

Edit:

Is seems to exit a 105 V5 and a 105E V2 (with of cause lower V number also possible)

 

It physically looks like the 105 V5 but I didn't check before shipping.  I'll know soon.

[auricgoldfinger]

Changing the subject...

 

What kind of IEC ac cables are people using for their Paul Hynes SR5's and SR7's?

[Johnseye]

2 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Changing the subject...

 

What kind of IEC ac cables are people using for their Paul Hynes SR5's and SR7's?

 

I used a standard 3 prong.  I'll upgrade it to something better in the future, but I'm not sure there will be much of a benefit.  Paul doesn't sell boutique IEC AC cables which may indicate they don't have a significant impact if any.

 

I have some Shunyata Venom HC cables I can try with it.

[auricgoldfinger]

Just now, Johnseye said:

 

I used a standard 3 prong.  I'll upgrade it to something better in the future, but I'm not sure there will be much of a benefit.  Paul doesn't sell boutique IEC AC cables which may indicate they don't have a significant impact if any.

 

I have some Shunyata Venom HC cables I can try with it.

 

Paul told me that he doesn't sell them because most of his customers already have their own preferred high end leads.  Interestingly, he uses DC10FS woven power leads himself, but as they are solid core, they will not pass the electrical regulations for the construction of flexible IEC leads in place in Europe and other countries around the world, so he can't sell them.