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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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30 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

 

You want reviews of the Network Bridge? Here, help yourself (it wasn’t always reviewed with “boutique” DACs from dCS): https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/products/network-bridge/reviews

 

http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-759&lang=en

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/dcs-network-bridge

 

Why do you think Michael Lavorgna of Audiostream bought one for himself after the review? Because it is a “boutique” component so that he can brag about it?

 

 

 

 

I don't care about others reviews.  I only care about our own, here, tested against our best findings.  

More name dropping?  Michael Lavorgna was banned from CA, recently.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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7 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

 

I don’t know if he was banned and for what reason, and frankly I don’t care. Ok, so do you have the trifecta yourself? How is Rajiv’s review your own? Do you have his ears and music preferences? 

No, but he has proven himself over time, here.  He has no outside agenda other than to seek out products that give him the best SQ within his needs.  And he loves to share it with the community here.  Very admirable.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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15 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

What does blu mk2 have to do with a trifecta comparison? 

 

Was it not obvious? You complaint about “system components unable to correctly bring out the best SQ of the boutique component”. I just point out that the same thing has been done by a company you seem to like with Chord blu mk2. Maybe not all comments has to be about trifecta comparisons?

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4 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

Was it not obvious? You complaint about “system components unable to correctly bring out the best SQ of the boutique component”. I just point out that the same thing has been done by a company you seem to like with Chord blu mk2. Maybe not all comments has to be about trifecta comparisons?

No it's not obvious.  I don't have a clue what your talking about.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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I'm not the one that came onto this thread and started name dropping a boutique system that was unrelated or tested against the products tested here, especially the latest SOtM sCLK-EX mods.   I'm not the one that started to object to the testing of one of those boutique components and how it should be performed when offered by one of the members here.  I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

And hopefully all these useless postings are deleted.  Because it's doing exactly as I said it would do, derail the thread.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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I agree, I now can see that changing the title of the thread to the current one from the older one was only to invite such derailing.  Rajiv, I think we need to change the title back to something more specific.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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@ElviaCaprice on your Jetway mobo I see that SOtM modded it to three external clock points do you know what clocks they replaced? I only thought a mobo had one clock for the system and one clock for the ethernet connection but it seems that there is a third one? In the manual for the SOtM sCLK-EX they show a picture of a mobo and a tX-USBexp and they only use three clock points for the mobo AND the  tX-USBexp.

 

I have been searching for a mobo that might work well to modify and also have M.2 for OS (Windows, Roon), SATA for my SSD (music) and a PCIe connector for the tX-USBexp. Found this but I dont really have a clue if it is any good and would work with this setup o.O 

 

https://www.minipc.de/catalog/il/1409

Main system
TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D-TC, 
Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> Uptone etherREGEN -> dCS Network Bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC
HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, etherREGEN and NUC)
 
Second system
Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree
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3 hours ago, Summit said:

 

To get the “best SQ” of a Chord blu mk2 and to use its 1M taps you need to have a DAC that has dual BNC in. Someone always need to start for progress to take place.

 

Actually we just need a single coaxial input that's capable of receiving 768 kHz but obviously that ain't available anywhere outside the Chord family yet. So far I could only find one manufacturer that's making a "beast" like that

 

http://www.comtrue-inc.com/index.php/products

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/283278-audio-true-768khz-32-bits-spdif-i2s-dop-dsd-src-asrc.html

 

Basically we just need adapters / cables like this for connecting Blu Mk. 2 to either Hugo 2 or Mojo

 

tfpv8SJ.png

 

Once Davina and another standalone M-scaler are released in the future, we could simply take advantage of 1M taps with USB 2.0 connections that are capable of receiving 768 kHz and therefore plenty of DACs with such USB receivers + DAC chips will provide an input like that. For instance, AKM already made an entire product line that's able to accept 768 kHz

 

http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/detail/0054/

 

As I pointed out in a previous post, we don't even have to own any products from Chord with M-scaler because offline upsampling could be done with Davina (as well as other standalone products with M-scaler)

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=160&tab=comments#comment-727282

 

That's why we could also enjoy M-scaled WAV files on the go with Hugo 2 and Mojo in addition to iFi Audio micro iDSD, although 400GB microSDXC cards wouldn't be large enough to hold that many huge WAV files.

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Let's all take a step back, please. 

 

I am not advocating for any brands in particular, and as long the discussion is relevant, I'm fine with any components being mentioned. If these are super expensive components being discussed, like the Blu-Dave combo, or some of the dCS DACs, I know I won't be buying them in this lifetime.

 

On the other hand, cool technologies do tend to trickle down. So if a year from now, dCS bring out a cheaper DAC, as they are rumored to be working, or a cheaper M-scaler/DAC combo arrives, then this research becomes interesting.

 

The key word here is research. I believe many on this thread - myself among them - wonder if eventually a single box will obviate the need for our front end medleys.

 

The dCS network bridge is intriguing on that score, as it is priced at a point comparable to what I've eventually spent on my trifecta medley.

 

So at this point, I am just curious to see how it compares on SQ. I like comparisons.

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8 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

 

@austinpop, I am not sure this will be a 100% relevant comparison. dCS equipment is known to work best through the dual AES connection. I was amazed to hear very obvious SQ improvement in my friend’s Paganini transport - Rossini DAC setup after he added the second AES cable. Prior to doing this he consulted dCS and they told him that dual AES is the way to go,  even with redbook. Apparently this kind of transmission (co-invented by dCS) used a specific coding system to split the sample rate data between two AES interfaces running at half the rate, thus reducing jitter compared to a single AES interface.

 

The USB output of the NB wasn’t even conceived as such during the development of the Network Bridge, it was supposed to be a port for connecting external hdd’s, but they decided to make it an output too via a future software update.

 

So perhaps you could do your test by taking your trifecta to the dealer and using the Rossini DAC for the test. The Rossini has a USB input too. So you could simultaneously connect your trifecta (to the USB input) and the Network bridge (to the dual AES input) of the Rossini DAC and do an A/B test simply by switching the inputs on the DAC though the remote control.

 

 

I'll see if it's possible. My dealer was rather interested in the trifecta, so he should be amenable to spending a couple of hours doing comparisons on his setup. Even if he knows that your explanation of the USB port does make the NB less interesting for me.

 

So we'll see, if I can make a comparison happen, that will at least be useful data for this thread.

 

I am inclined to do the test with the QX-5 DAC, since it's one I'm more familiar with, and has both USB and AES inputs. The dual AES-thing could be a one off with a dCS DAC, just for curiosity.

 

Will keep y'all posted.

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4 hours ago, octaviars said:

@ElviaCaprice on your Jetway mobo I see that SOtM modded it to three external clock points do you know what clocks they replaced? I only thought a mobo had one clock for the system and one clock for the ethernet connection but it seems that there is a third one? In the manual for the SOtM sCLK-EX they show a picture of a mobo and a tX-USBexp and they only use three clock points for the mobo AND the  tX-USBexp.

 

I have been searching for a mobo that might work well to modify and also have M.2 for OS (Windows, Roon), SATA for my SSD (music) and a PCIe connector for the tX-USBexp. Found this but I dont really have a clue if it is any good and would work with this setup o.O 

 

https://www.minipc.de/catalog/il/1409

 

See my post here:

 

The board I've identified, and will likely send off to SOtM for modification is the Jetway NF591.  Very similar to the DFI board Roy is using.  The Celeron proc is 6w.  It has a PCIe slot so I can use a tx-USBexp.  It has DC 2.5mm in which means I don't have to use an adapter from my SR7 anymore.  This is a big win.  But it has an M.2 slot which means I can A. use my current low power SSD and B. 

 

The M.2 slot is not capable of using the Optane stick, but I may be able to use it with the mini PCIE.

 

This board will go out to SOtM for modification this week.

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A few questions for @austinpop and other Trifecta users.

 

I'm contemplating getting the SMS-200-Ultra and modded Switch to see whether they can beat my current playback chain:

 

MicroRendu (1.4 board upgrade) > ISO Regen > Singxer SU-1

 

Of course having the ISO Regen and SU-1 on hand would potentially allow me to test different configurations but ideally I'd be looking to replace one 'spaghetti' solution with another rather than making it more convoluted than it already is.

 

A few questions please:

 

1. @austinpop How important is the tX-USBultra within the Trifecta? i.e. is the SMS-200-Ultra and modded switch enough to get going or would you say that the tX-USBultra is also a key ingredient in the spaghetti sauce?

 

2. Does the Trifecta improve Tidal streaming as much as locally stored files? Or is Tidal still at the mercy of the Router. Unlike @romaz (who is going to be sorely missed here :() I doubt i'm in a position to get the router placed close enough to the other stuff to run a different clock on it. 

 

3. I'm sure I read at some point on this epic rollercoaster thread that the SMS-200 and the sCLK-EX was preferable to the SMS-200-Ultra but I'm struggling to find that post. Did I imagine that or can someone remind me of the thinking behind that?

 

Many Thanks,

Alan

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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29 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

The board I've identified, and will likely send off to SOtM for modification is the Jetway NF591.  Very similar to the DFI board Roy is using.  The Celeron proc is 6w.  It has a PCIe slot so I can use a tx-USBexp.  It has DC 2.5mm in which means I don't have to use an adapter from my SR7 anymore.  This is a big win.  But it has an M.2 slot which means I can A. use my current low power SSD and B. 

 

The M.2 slot is not capable of using the Optane stick, but I may be able to use it with the mini PCIE.

 

This board will go out to SOtM for modification this week.

 

Thanks for the info. But do you know how many clock points this mobo takes and what frequency they have? My thoughts is if I use 2 clocks for the mobo and one for the USB card I would have one left to use for my router/switch

Main system
TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D-TC, 
Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> Uptone etherREGEN -> dCS Network Bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC
HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, etherREGEN and NUC)
 
Second system
Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree
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@BigAlMc

 

I'm not sure there's a difference between a modded sMS-200 and a sMS-200 Ultra.  One thing Lee did say to us at RMAF is that, in theory, each sCLK-EX board should be using the same frequency for all of the taps.  I think he also said that my setup with two sCLK-EX boards (one in the sMS-200 Ultra and one in the dX-USB Ultra) should be better than @austinpop's setup, but we haven't noticed any significant differences.

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1 minute ago, octaviars said:

 

Thanks for the info. But do you know how many clock points this mobo takes and what frequency they have? My thoughts is if I use 2 clocks for the mobo and one for the USB card I would have one left to use for my router/switch

 

May at SOtM told me she won't know until they get it in hand, but hopefully it's only 2, one for the motherboard and one to cover both ethernet NICs. 

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25 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

May at SOtM told me she won't know until they get it in hand, but hopefully it's only 2, one for the motherboard and one to cover both ethernet NICs. 

 

Ok I see thanks for the answer.

Main system
TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D-TC, 
Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> Uptone etherREGEN -> dCS Network Bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC
HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, etherREGEN and NUC)
 
Second system
Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree
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Let me take a stab at this while @austinpop is busy today because I run into the same position as you.

 

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

1. @austinpop How important is the tX-USBultra within the Trifecta? i.e. is the SMS-200-Ultra and modded switch enough to get going or would you say that the tX-USBultra is also a key ingredient in the spaghetti sauce?

 

The tx-USBultra (or an ISO Regen) is a key ingredient because they do function as signal regeneration, reclocking,  or galvanic isolation that sMS-200Ultra alone does not have.  Since you already have the ISO-Regen, you can try that first in place of tX-USBultra.  ISO-Regen is said to present a more pleasing and impactful SQ but the tX-USBultra provides better transparency and presents a larger sound stage.

 

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

2. Does the Trifecta improve Tidal streaming as much as locally stored files? Or is Tidal still at the mercy of the Router. Unlike @romaz (who is going to be sorely missed here :() I doubt i'm in a position to get the router placed close enough to the other stuff to run a different clock on it. 

 

Believe it or not some are saying Tidal streaming is sometimes better than local files. A lot of it has to do with how the master file originated, ripped, or decoded.   It is said that Tidal uses only master recordings where CD's came from to begin with.  Coupled with poorly ripped files, local files can be worse.  Also consider the fact that Tidal is streamed so whether there is packet loss along the multitudes of routers Tidal file pass through, that can impact the resulting output.  Streaming, nowadays, does a lot of data validation and caching.  If you try to pull your ethernet cable while streaming, it takes a number of seconds before music stops playing.  So I don't think there is a clear answer to this until there is a test comparing the same file being streamed out of Tidal and played locally.

 

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

3. I'm sure I read at some point on this epic rollercoaster thread that the SMS-200 and the sCLK-EX was preferable to the SMS-200-Ultra but I'm struggling to find that post. Did I imagine that or can someone remind me of the thinking behind that?

 

I got a reply from SOtM themselves that modding the sMS-200 will not be as good as the Ultra because the external clock connector with cable being longer with modding, can impact the SQ.

 

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Thanks @TopQuark

 

Appreciate the info. 

 

I have an ISO Regen on hand and appreciate what it does but figured that in the Trifecta model the tX-USB-ultra running off the sCLK-ex in setup (so all three are in sync) was perhaps important? Given it seems to be all about clocks. 

 

I thought but am not sure, that having an ISO Regen and/or SU-1 after the 'clocking magic' of the Trifecta might dilute the goodness. 

 

The other mental arithmetic I'm trying to balance is that my Directstream DAC is apparently best on I2S which is why I got the SU-1. But if I make the leap to the Trifecta I'd be looking to go reclocked USB into the DAC to see if the Trifecta magic was sufficient to outperform the SU-1/I2S. 

 

Though I guess I wouldn't know for sure until I factored in a Ref-10 or the upcoming SOtM clock. 

 

More questions than answers! Gotta love this hobby O.o

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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20 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

I have an ISO Regen on hand and appreciate what it does but figured that in the Trifecta model the tX-USB-ultra running off the sCLK-ex in setup (so all three are in sync) was perhaps important? Given it seems to be all about clocks. 

 

The standalone sCLK-ex is basically just replacing the clocks  and other special sauce that SOtM adds into it.  To have all in sync means adding an external master clock like Mutec Ref 10.  The ISO Regen already has a very good internal Crystek clock.  We don't know what SOtM uses.  Or you can try what Romaz did.  Include both ISO-Regen and tX-USBultra to balance it more out.

 

20 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

I thought but am not sure, that having an ISO Regen and/or SU-1 after the 'clocking magic' of the Trifecta might dilute the goodness. 

 

At some point, it will.  The more enhancements are added to the system the more it can harm it.  Most improvements seen here involves using expensive cables so there are trade-offs there in terms of how significant the SQ you want to achieve vs cost.

 

20 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Though I guess I wouldn't know for sure until I factored in a Ref-10 or the upcoming SOtM clock. 

 

Precisely.

 

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6 hours ago, octaviars said:

@ElviaCaprice on your Jetway mobo I see that SOtM modded it to three external clock points do you know what clocks they replaced? I only thought a mobo had one clock for the system and one clock for the ethernet connection but it seems that there is a third one? In the manual for the SOtM sCLK-EX they show a picture of a mobo and a tX-USBexp and they only use three clock points for the mobo AND the  tX-USBexp.

 

I have been searching for a mobo that might work well to modify and also have M.2 for OS (Windows, Roon), SATA for my SSD (music) and a PCIe connector for the tX-USBexp. Found this but I dont really have a clue if it is any good and would work with this setup o.O 

 

https://www.minipc.de/catalog/il/1409

Looks good.  Might even be able to run a second tX-USBexp  from that second M2 that is a PCIeX1?  I sent an inquiry into May for more details on the clocks replaced on my NUC.  The Ethernet  and USB clocks we're not replaced, as I requested.  3 sCLK-EX points we're used on the mobo,  1 on the tXUSBexp.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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