Jump to content
IGNORED

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


Message added by The Computer Audiophile

Important and useful information about this thread

Posting guidelines

History and index of useful posts

Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, afrancois said:

Interesting post, however, what many people tend to forget is that most new albums that are pressed on vinyl, have been through the digital machine. Very few pure analog recording studio's still exist today. Even quite old recordings have been digitally remastered before they are pressed onto vinyl. Something to think about. Honestly, I never heard a top class analog system in my life. Something I should do in the near future, with the risk of being somewhat disappointed for the rest of my life. This already happened to me in the digital domain, the day I heard a Steinway-Lyngdorf model D. Sorry this is my second post mentioning Lyngdorf. Guess what I have at home :-)

 

It is easy to hear when a vinyl album comes from a digital source.  I typically don't bother buying these because you might as well be listening to the digital version.  There are exceptions but I won't digress.  There are some companies like Music Matters, Analog Productions and Mobile Fidelity who do an incredible job of reissuing analog material.  Otherwise finding the original recording in the best condition is your best bet.  Also, recording studios began mastering on digital media around 1975 growing over the years with CDs becoming mainstream in about 1982.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

It is easy to hear when a vinyl album comes from a digital source.  I typically don't bother buying these because you might as well be listening to the digital version.  There are exceptions but I won't digress.  There are some companies like Music Matters, Analog Productions and Mobile Fidelity who do an incredible job of reissuing analog material.  Otherwise finding the original recording in the best condition is your best bet.  Also, recording studios began mastering on digital media around 1975 growing over the years with CDs becoming mainstream in about 1982.

I find this is quite a bold claim, saying that you can hear that a vinyl record comes from a digital source. When you know how digital has evolved since 1984 and even then it was almost impossible to reliably detect the presence of an ADC/DAC. See http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

Don't want to start a discussion on digital vs analog :-) Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, afrancois said:

This has been done before by Lyngdorf. Look at the TDAI2170 and the SDA2400 and even before that. Truly amazing gear. These are true digital amplifiers without the drawback of other so-called class D amplifiers. No coloration, at all and with built-in room correction. 

Thanks for the info, I will check these amps

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Are you saying all Chord DACs are unique in this regard because as far as you know no other can drive speakers without an amp?  The amp I use (Benchmark AHB2) is rated at 135db.  Given the DAVE is rated at 127.5db why would I be limiting the dynamic range by using this amplifier?

 

I use the Chord 2Qute to drive my highly efficient Omega's.  The other Chord DAC's have a more powerful output, so I would conclude as Roy did, all Chord DAC's in current production.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

Link to comment
13 minutes ago, afrancois said:

I find this is quite a bold claim, saying that you can hear that a vinyl record comes from a digital source. When you know how digital has evolved since 1984 and even then it was almost impossible to reliably detect the presence of an ADC/DAC. See http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

Don't want to start a discussion on digital vs analog :-) Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

 

It is a topic for another place for sure.  It isn't that difficult to hear the difference.  I'm sure I wouldn't be 100% in a DBT but I'd be better than 40%.  I'll have to read it, thanks for sharing.  Also keep in mind, I was referring to vinyl from an analog source vs vinyl from a digital source.

Link to comment
8 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Meaning to say that no other DAC on the market today can do this?

Not at all.  Just not with the unique design of Rob Watts.  Sorry, now I reread your original post and had misread it.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Meaning to say that no other DAC on the market today can do this?

One important factor is the ultra low impedance of Chord dacs. To put this into perspective, Mytek Brooklyn has an impedance of 75.5 ohms (as reported by Stereophile) through its RCA outputs compared to 0.055 ohms for Dave. That is an impedance which is 1000 times higher 

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, mozes said:

One important factor is the ultra low impedance of Chord dacs. To put this into perspective, Mytek Brooklyn has an impedance of 75.5 ohms (as reported by Stereophile) through its RCA outputs compared to 0.055 ohms for Dave. That is an impedance which is 1000 times higher 

 

No doubt that's an amazing stat.  Just wondering if they're the only game in town when it comes to this.

Link to comment
On 9/25/2017 at 3:12 AM, seeteeyou said:

Quick question for @romaz since you're receiving your Hugo 2 recently / very soon, did you get a chance to ask SOtM anything about their willingness to modify the clocks of Hugo 2 for loyal customers like you?

 

DAVINA with both USB input and output should be on the horizon, that means we'll be able to capture the upscaled files of M-Scaler and save those 705.6kHz / 768 kHz wave files for offline playback afterwards.

 

In other words, we're still taking advantage of M-Scaler's power while the path should look like:

 

⇒ tX-USBexp+sCLK-EX combo

⇒⇒ tX-USBultra

⇒⇒⇒ Hugo 2

 

Another member (Bamber) was paying for multiple sCLK-EX boards and that's why SOtM was happy to make an exception to the rule

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=109&tab=comments#comment-691317

 

 

The thought has certainly crossed my mind to upgrade as many clocks as I can given that the REF10 has 8 clock outputs.  With my DAVE, Blu Mk2, and incoming Hugo2, however, I have never considered modifying the clocks on these pieces at all.  Maybe there's something to be gained but I have my doubts that there are and I won't be the one to try it.  

 

First, Rob's DACs are not your ordinary delta-sigma or R2R DACs.  They incorporate a pulse array architecture that he invented years ago and this is what he has to say:

 

"Pulse Array is a constant switching scheme - that is it always switches at exactly the same rate irrespective of the data, unlike DSD, R2R, or current source DAC's. This means that errors due to switching activity and jitter are not signal dependent, and so is innately immune from jitter creating distortion and noise floor modulation and any other signal related errors. The only other DAC that is constant switching activity is switched capacitor topology, but this has gain proportionate to absolute clock frequency - so it still has clock problems."

 

"The benefit I have with Pulse Array is that the jitter has no sound quality degrading consequences - unlike all other architectures - as it creates no distortion or noise floor modulation. Because the clock is very close to the active elements (only one logic level away), the jitter degradation is minimal and there are no skirting issues at all. This has been confirmed with simulation and measurement - its a fixed noise, and by eliminating the clock jitter (I have a special way of doing this) noise only improves by a negligible 0.5 dB (127 dB to 127.5 dB)."

 

As far as trying to do away with a noisy clock, DAVE's noise and distortion measurements are already as good as it gets and so I'm not sure what there would be to gain.  While at RMAF last year, I brought my DAVE with me.  As Audio Precision was there offering free measurements of any electronic component people were willing to bring in using their state-of-the-art APx555, I asked to have my DAVE measured and here is a photo:

 

59cb4e91a948f_DAVEAPX555.thumb.jpg.235c8bf3f49922af8e8443855f9ce541.jpg

 

Here are actual measurements of my DAVE:

 

59cb4f0c6527e_DAVEmeasurements.thumb.jpg.5d2aaec7cc6ce3705097a982c5c419d0.jpg

 

While it's hard to see, hopefully, you can appreciate that the red tracing is roughly the same as the blue tracing and that they are both at the bottom of the y axis.  One tracing represents the DAVE's distortion measurements while the other represents the noise floor of the APx555.  This means the THD + noise measurement @1 kHz of my DAVE is so low (0.000015% @ 2.5V) that it is just barely measurable by what many consider to be the most sensitive analyzer in existence today.  According to the AP analyst that measured my DAVE, the measurements he got were the best he had ever seen for a DAC.

 

As far as DAVE's jitter and noise measurements reported by others, here are John Atkinson's measurements:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-dave-da-processor-measurements

 

In John's own words, DAVE's measured performance are "beyond reproach."

Link to comment
On 9/24/2017 at 12:22 PM, Cornan said:

 

Well, it would almost be a dissapointment if the Entreq improved on a DAC like the Dave.? Serious high-end stuff! ?

 

Others may have different results but here are mine.  I used to own an Entreq Poseidon and a loom of Atlantis grounding cables (I still own a few and if someone wants to buy mine, PM me).  They did wonders for my former TotalDac d1-monobloc.  When my DAVE first came in, I grounded it with my Entreq Poseidon via DAVE's XLR output (which is always live unless you're listening to headphones) and I heard no improvement at all.  I tried it again with a Synergistic Research grounding block and their Hi-Def grounding cable and I heard no improvement.  I tried it again with Sound Galleries' new D2 grounding block that I purchased in Munich this past May and again, no difference.

 

Now, with my music server, the D2 grounding block results in a very noticeable improvement.

Link to comment
On 9/25/2017 at 5:38 AM, zoltan said:

Hi Romaz,
You have found that shorter cables improve the sound quality. I wonder what length is your Habst. The shortest on their site is 50cm but for me even 30 or 25 would do. Do you think it is worth trying to order that length? 

Also I wonder if placing the MC3+USB on the Ref 10 would have any bad effects. That would give the chance to use the shortest cable. 

Thanks,

Zoltan 

 

My Habst cables are 50cm each.  Compared against a much cheaper 30cm cable from Blue Jeans Cables, I found the longer Habst cable still sounded better.  The Habst is extremely well shielded and has an extra ground lead.  It also utilizes a very pure grade of cryo'd silver.

 

One thing you can try if you don't want to spend a lot of money on clock cables is to apply 7.5mm ferrite cores to your cable and here is a photo of a cable that contains 5 of these ferrite cores.  You can buy these ferrite cores on DigiKey for about $30 for 5:

 

20170921_230228.thumb.jpg.71230b1cf2f8494426411092e8be1967.jpg

 

I can't take credit for this as the idea was proposed by Rob Watts but it certainly improves sound considerably (much less glare), however, the Habst still sounds better.

Link to comment
On 9/25/2017 at 7:34 AM, afrancois said:

This has been done before by Lyngdorf. Look at the TDAI2170 and the SDA2400 and even before that. Truly amazing gear. These are true digital amplifiers without the drawback of other so-called class D amplifiers. No coloration, at all and with built-in room correction. 

 

Sure enough.  However, THD + Noise ratings provided for these amplifiers by the manufacturer are nearly 700x more than DAVE.  

Link to comment
1 hour ago, romaz said:

 

Sure enough.  However, THD + Noise ratings provided for these amplifiers by the manufacturer are nearly 700x more than DAVE.  

Have ever heard a Lyngdorf system? Their room correction is unrivaled. Much more important than squeezing out the last impedance or THD if you ask me. The most important factor in music reproduction is the room you are in, period. Any idea how much THD your speakers add? Those are full percentages instead of... That's why I would love to have an active speaker system. Unfortunately this is beyond my reach.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Others may have different results but here are mine.  I used to own an Entreq Poseidon and a loom of Atlantis grounding cables (I still own a few and if someone wants to buy mine, PM me).  They did wonders for my former TotalDac d1-monobloc.  When my DAVE first came in, I grounded it with my Entreq Poseidon via DAVE's XLR output (which is always live unless you're listening to headphones) and I heard no improvement at all.  I tried it again with a Synergistic Research grounding block and their Hi-Def grounding cable and I heard no improvement.  I tried it again with Sound Galleries' new D2 grounding block that I purchased in Munich this past May and again, no difference.

 

Now, with my music server, the D2 grounding block results in a very noticeable improvement.

 

Interesting! Thanks for sharing your experiance with the grounding boxes romaz! :) Right now I am using my Entreq Minimus (plain vanilla copper version) to ground the DC negative output of my three floating SMPSs. I have tried it in many different spots during the years I had it, but I actually think this is the best spot up to date.

 

I would love to try Entreq Poseidon or the Sound Galleries D2 someday. Unfortunately they are way off my budget. If I spot a Minimus silver on the local second hand market I will grab it instantly though! :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, afrancois said:

Have ever heard a Lyngdorf system? Their room correction is unrivaled. Much more important than squeezing out the last impedance or THD if you ask me. The most important factor in music reproduction is the room you are in, period. Any idea how much THD your speakers add? Those are full percentages instead of... That's why I would love to have an active speaker system. Unfortunately this is beyond my reach.

 

You make very good points, especially about the THD of speakers.  I have not heard a Lyngdorf although now, I would very much like to.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, romaz said:

 

You make very good points, especially about the THD of speakers.  I have not heard a Lyngdorf although now, I would very much like to.

I'm using the poor man's Lyngdorf equipment :-). However, I'm quite pleased with this. When you have the change, you should audition the Steinway Lyngdorf Model D. http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com/en/products/speaker-series/model-d It's the combination of room correction and an active speaker system that makes this system uncanny. Strangely they don't offer a streaming solution, as far as I know. Thank you for being open-minded.

Link to comment
6 hours ago, romaz said:

I can't take credit for this as the idea was proposed by Rob Watts but it certainly improves sound considerably (much less glare), however, the Habst still sounds better.

1

Thank you. I will definitely try the ferrite cores. When I have sufficient funds I will probably get the Habst. It would be good to know however, how it fairs against other similarly priced high-end cables like Stealth which has some patented impedance matching.
http://www.stealthaudiocables.com/products/varidig.htm

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

Link to comment
8 hours ago, romaz said:

 

My Habst cables are 50cm each.  Compared against a much cheaper 30cm cable from Blue Jeans Cables, I found the longer Habst cable still sounded better.  The Habst is extremely well shielded and has an extra ground lead.  It also utilizes a very pure grade of cryo'd silver.

 

One thing you can try if you don't want to spend a lot of money on clock cables is to apply 7.5mm ferrite cores to your cable and here is a photo of a cable that contains 5 of these ferrite cores.  You can buy these ferrite cores on DigiKey for about $30 for 5:

 

20170921_230228.thumb.jpg.71230b1cf2f8494426411092e8be1967.jpg

 

I can't take credit for this as the idea was proposed by Rob Watts but it certainly improves sound considerably (much less glare), however, the Habst still sounds better.

 

Roy,

 

Have all of your clock cable experiments been for the 10MHz reference clock?

 

Just wondering if you've also experimented with the little SMB cables for sCLK-EX distribution. 

Link to comment
21 minutes ago, austinpop said:

@romaz

 

You are clearly the most interesting man in computer audio! 

 

I'm guessing you don't always drink beer, but when you do, you prefer one that is "well-balanced, resolute and transparent." 

 

I will be buying you said beer when we meet up in RMAF. :D Or any libation of your choice!

Previously published on Audiokarma.org...

 

He does not need cable lifters. When he enters a room, speaker cables lift themselves out of respect.

He does not buy remastered records. He remasters his own.

He can bias power tubes to within 1mV ... by ear.

Mark Levinson build a custom preamp for him ... with tone controls and loudness.

He traps his own bass.

He has never listened to "Jazz at the Pawnshop" ... he just happened to be there and gave the recording engineer a few pointers.

McIntosh chose the color of his eyes for its VU meters.

His list of equipment is The Recommended List of Components.

His interpretation of Wife Acceptance Factor is completely different from yours ... and it has nothing to do with speakers.

Diana Krall ogles at his photos.

Hewlett-Packard uses his perfect 1Khz whistle to calibrate their test equipment.

His mere presence causes jitter in lesser components ... even analog ones.

When one of his girlfriend asked for diamonds for their anniversary, he bought himself a pair of B&W 800D speakers -- and she was ecstatic.

His ears are insured with Lloyd's of London.

It is said that Dave Wilson was inspired to build and name their MAXX speaker after seeing him naked in the locker room shower. It is also rumored that his beard shavings are the secret ingredients in Wilson Speaker's X Material.

Michael Fremer credits him for the vinyl revival.

When he is in the audience at a concert, Keith Jarrett refrains from making those annoying grunts and noises when he plays.

He once arm wrestled Eveanna Manley ... and won.

The moment he takes a new piece of equipment out of the store it appreciates in value by 40%.

He is ... the most interesting audiophile in the world.

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Previously published on Audiokarma.org...

 

He does not need cable lifters. When he enters a room, speaker cables lift themselves out of respect.

He does not buy remastered records. He remasters his own.

He can bias power tubes to within 1mV ... by ear.

Mark Levinson build a custom preamp for him ... with tone controls and loudness.

He traps his own bass.

He has never listened to "Jazz at the Pawnshop" ... he just happened to be there and gave the recording engineer a few pointers.

McIntosh chose the color of his eyes for its VU meters.

His list of equipment is The Recommended List of Components.

His interpretation of Wife Acceptance Factor is completely different from yours ... and it has nothing to do with speakers.

Diana Krall ogles at his photos.

Hewlett-Packard uses his perfect 1Khz whistle to calibrate their test equipment.

His mere presence causes jitter in lesser components ... even analog ones.

When one of his girlfriend asked for diamonds for their anniversary, he bought himself a pair of B&W 800D speakers -- and she was ecstatic.

His ears are insured with Lloyd's of London.

It is said that Dave Wilson was inspired to build and name their MAXX speaker after seeing him naked in the locker room shower. It is also rumored that his beard shavings are the secret ingredients in Wilson Speaker's X Material.

Michael Fremer credits him for the vinyl revival.

When he is in the audience at a concert, Keith Jarrett refrains from making those annoying grunts and noises when he plays.

He once arm wrestled Eveanna Manley ... and won.

The moment he takes a new piece of equipment out of the store it appreciates in value by 40%.

He is ... the most interesting audiophile in the world.

 

ROTFL! :D

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...