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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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45 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Not really what I think or anyone thinks, it's just a matter of apples-to-apples comparisons. Talk is cheap and that's all.

 

BTW, let's compare SoTM sCLK-OCX10 to one of their best MV336

 

https://www.morion-us.com/morion-inroduces-xtal-clear-ocxo/


https://www.morion-us.com/quartz_oscillators/790/mv336/

http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/news/open/95/

http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/oscillators/ocxo/

http://www.morion.com.ru/catalog_pdf/31-MV336_REV_9.pdf

http://www.morion.com.ru/catalog_pdf/32-MV336M_REV_5.pdf

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336m.pdf

 

Just stealing (MAN, I'm such a petty thief) something from Rajiv that's posted on page 145

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=145&tab=comments#comment-722223

 Typical Phase noise(dBC/Hz)

                                                                                           My

                                       sCLK-OCX10                       Cybershaft    Mutec
     Frequency  Standard  Advanced  Reference       OP-14         Ref 10 (published)
         10Hz  :       -125         -135        -140                   -132.4              ≤ -142
       100Hz  :       -150         -160        -160                   -141.9              ≤ --155
         1KHz  :       -160        -163        -165                                             ≤ --160
       10KHz  :       -165        -165        -165
      100KHz  :      -165        -165        -165
      Noise floor:                                                                                        ≤ -166

 

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336.pdf#page=2

                                       Morion MV336
     Frequency         -              LN          ULN  
        0.1Hz  :       <-80          <-85        <-92
           1Hz  :       <-113      <-116        <-120
         10Hz  :       <-143      <-144        <-145
       100Hz  :       <-154      <-156        <-157
         1kHz  :       <-160      <-160        <-160
       10kHz  :       <-160      <-160        <-160
 

Maybe they're putting something even better inside QX-5 Twenty?

 

Is those measurements really made on the input of a DAC with a digital cables as cables would be needed for an external clock to work?

 

How many device was attached to the master/reference clock and did more device changed the measurements?

 

How does phase noise change with length of the cable at say 30, 50 and 100 cm?

 

Finally are those clocks good because they are external or can an identical good clock be used internal in a DAC or server with better result, because of much shorter cables?

 

* Maybe you know the answer to my above questions, but I believe most people doesn’t know how to interpret those numbers and are not aver under which conditions they there made.

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6 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

 Typical Phase noise(dBC/Hz)

                                                                                           My

                                       sCLK-OCX10                       Cybershaft    Mutec
     Frequency  Standard  Advanced  Reference       OP-14         Ref 10 (published)
         10Hz  :       -125         -135        -140                   -132.4              ≤ -142
       100Hz  :       -150         -160        -160                   -141.9              ≤ --155
         1KHz  :       -160        -163        -165                                             ≤ --160
       10KHz  :       -165        -165        -165
      100KHz  :      -165        -165        -165
      Noise floor:                                                                                        ≤ -166

 

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336.pdf#page=2

                                       Morion MV336
     Frequency         -              LN          ULN  
        0.1Hz  :       <-80          <-85        <-92
           1Hz  :       <-113      <-116        <-120
         10Hz  :       <-143      <-144        <-145
       100Hz  :       <-154      <-156        <-157
         1kHz  :       <-160      <-160        <-160
       10kHz  :       <-160      <-160        <-160
 

Maybe they're putting something even better inside QX-5 Twenty?

 

Well, those are some very impressive measurements, especially in the ULN (ultra low-noise?) column. 

 

I interpreted Mr. Hansen's comments about clocks very positively. If they are are indeed using OCXO's that are specially curated for them - which would make sense - then I can see where it would beat out an externally connected reference clock.

 

The only question in my mind would then be the other (non data) clocks. Since the QX-5 is a full fledged digital hub, it must also need to clock Ethernet and USB streams, as well as the inbuilt ARM processor. One would hope they would also use these ULN clocks for that purpose, but I have no idea. I have asked the question in the other QX-5 thread.

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12 hours ago, rickca said:

Sure you can compare QX-5 vs your pasta medley.  But what if the trifecta + Cybershaft into the QX-5 USB input sounds the best?

 

Actually, they have modular pricing. See: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/27754-ayre-acoustics-qx-5-twenty-–-the-digital-hub/?do=findComment&comment=720098

 

 

So - in one case it could be a $9k all-in-one endgame digital solution, and in the other case it could be "just" an outstanding $7k-7.5k DAC.

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19 minutes ago, mozes said:

System update: Radical change!

 

Well, I think it's about time to share an update about my system although it is still not where I want to end up with. Anyhow, I guess it is always WIP as usual.

 

Over the last few months, I have read various posts by @Romaz and @ElviaCaprice regarding their minimalist approach to their audio chain, that is going straight from DAC to speakers and the advantages this strategy yields. I became very intrigued given the isolation from AC mains, reduction of box count and increased transparency.

Of course, not any dac or speaker will work, so I had to make some tough decisions, and in the end I made up my mind. I sold my Naim gear, Brooklyn Dac and its VR Mini PSU, and replaced them with Chord Dave. Second, I bought two sets of speakers, Spendor D7 and Omega Super 8XRS with silver/gold wiring and high end Furutech binding posts. Why did I buy the Spendors and they are 90db only at 8 Ohms impedance? simply I fell in love with these speakers. They are one of the best speakers that engaged me regardless of price and I couldn't resist pulling the trigger. It seems, I have a weakness to everything made in the UK, having owned Naim, Neat, Chord and Spendor and who knows what more.

 

In the meantime, I also hunted a second hand tX USB ultra and I sent both tXs to SOTM who upgraded the DC wiring to silver, added Master clock inputs and modded a D-link switch from one of the tX units. I also got a 1m Lush USB cable that I added to my chain. To cut the story short, I am not going to talk about the many many tests I did and all the combinations I tried. I will simply share what my ultimate chain is so far which gave me the best sound ever till now :)

 

Nimitra (VR mini)>USPCB>Iso-Regen(LPS-1)>Elijah Audio USB cable (signal and ground only)>tX-USBultra(LPS-1)>USPCB>tX-USBultra(LPS-1)>1m Lush USB cable>Chord Dave>Spendor D7

 

Grounding: My Nimitra and Dave are grounded to Entreq Olympus Minimus and D-Link switch is grounded to Silver Minimus. Each of the D7 speakers have its negative speaker binding post grounded to an Aucharm Box.

 

This setup simply blows away anything I have had before in my system and I have tried real high end Naim gear (up to 500 series level). What I am getting is transparency and resolution like crazy! Music sounds just real, I have no better description.

 

The crown jewel of my system is undoubtedly the Dave, this little box amazes me. It is my dac, preamp and power amp and it gloriously drives 90db speakers to levels beyond my tolerance level and there is no need for any subwoofer. How can this little beats do that? only 2 watts!! I guess the answer is as @Romaz highlighted before, its ultra low impedance of only 0.055 ohms. I also bought a Rogue Cronus Magnum 2 tube amp to see what tubes offer. I tried Dave with the Rogue and it sounds very very sweet, but I prefer Dave directly to the D7s, I simply didn't want to compromise on transparency and resolution. With Dave driving the D7s directly, I put my ears on the tweeters and there is no noise at all, I mean literally ZERO noise, this is crazy, I haven't had any amplifier that it is DEAD quiet. This explains why I am enjoying now low level late night listening, as I feel that all the details are there, hard to describe what I am hearing, it is pure enjoyment.

 

My Tidal now sounds way better than my locally stored music in my previous system. You won't believe that this is streaming, it is like high res playing. The modded switch with Dave takes Tidal to a completely different level.

For now, I am waiting for the delivery of my Omegas which at 98db and 8Ohms impedance, will be a piece of cake for Dave, so I expect that I will get better dynamics and effortless delivery of music. Given what I am hearing with the D7s now, I am not sure that the Omegas will be better in all aspects.

 

Finally, big thanks to all the contributors to this thread and especially @Romaz and @ElviaCaprice for their advice and helpful tips.

 

To be continued!

 

 

Truly great stuff! ? Radical change in setup and SQ. Enjoy, you are with it! ?

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8 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Truly great stuff! ? Radical change in setup and SQ. Enjoy, you are with it! ?

Thank you Micael, you made me discover the magic of Entreq. Their effect on Dave is very minimal compared to Nimitra and the switch

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36 minutes ago, mozes said:

The modded switch with Dave takes Tidal to a completely different level.

I think this is the first time I've seen someone use an SOtM switch mod without an sMS-200Ultra.  Is the switch just between your RT-AC3100 router and the Nimitra?  What power supplies are you using on the switch and router?

 

What led you to dual tX-USBultra?  Were you not using an ISO REGEN followed by a tx-USBultra before?

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3 minutes ago, rickca said:

I think this is the first time I've seen someone use an SOtM switch mod without an sMS-200Ultra.  Is the switch just between your RT-AC3100 router and the Nimitra?  What power supplies are you using on the switch and router?

Yes and it is just to improve Tidal streaming. Powered by LPS-1, beats the battery

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5 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Wow, Mozes, I am speechless.  I like the way you roll. :D 

 

Thanks I am still on the roll :)

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44 minutes ago, mozes said:

System update: Radical change!

 

Well, I think it's about time to share an update about my system although it is still not where I want to end up with. Anyhow, I guess it is always WIP as usual.

 

Over the last few months, I have read various posts by @Romaz and @ElviaCaprice regarding their minimalist approach to their audio chain, that is going straight from DAC to speakers and the advantages this strategy yields. I became very intrigued given the isolation from AC mains, reduction of box count and increased transparency.

Of course, not any dac or speaker will work, so I had to make some tough decisions, and in the end I made up my mind. I sold my Naim gear, Brooklyn Dac and its VR Mini PSU, and replaced them with Chord Dave. Second, I bought two sets of speakers, Spendor D7 and Omega Super 8XRS with silver/gold wiring and high end Furutech binding posts. Why did I buy the Spendors and they are 90db only at 8 Ohms impedance? simply I fell in love with these speakers. They are one of the best speakers that engaged me regardless of price and I couldn't resist pulling the trigger. It seems, I have a weakness to everything made in the UK, having owned Naim, Neat, Chord and Spendor and who knows what more.

 

In the meantime, I also hunted a second hand tX USB ultra and I sent both tXs to SOTM who upgraded the DC wiring to silver, added Master clock inputs and modded a D-link switch from one of the tX units. I also got a 1m Lush USB cable that I added to my chain. To cut the story short, I am not going to talk about the many many tests I did and all the combinations I tried. I will simply share what my ultimate chain is so far which gave me the best sound ever till now :)

 

Nimitra (VR mini)>USPCB>Iso-Regen(LPS-1)>Elijah Audio USB cable (signal and ground only)>tX-USBultra(LPS-1)>USPCB>tX-USBultra(LPS-1)>1m Lush USB cable>Chord Dave>Spendor D7

 

Grounding: My Nimitra and Dave are grounded to Entreq Olympus Minimus and D-Link switch is grounded to Silver Minimus. Each of the D7 speakers have its negative speaker binding post grounded to an Aucharm Box.

 

This setup simply blows away anything I have had before in my system and I have tried real high end Naim gear (up to 500 series level). What I am getting is transparency and resolution like crazy! Music sounds just real, I have no better description.

 

The crown jewel of my system is undoubtedly the Dave, this little box amazes me. It is my dac, preamp and power amp and it gloriously drives 90db speakers to levels beyond my tolerance level and there is no need for any subwoofer. How can this little beats do that? only 2 watts!! I guess the answer is as @Romaz highlighted before, its ultra low impedance of only 0.055 ohms. I also bought a Rogue Cronus Magnum 2 tube amp to see what tubes offer. I tried Dave with the Rogue and it sounds very very sweet, but I prefer Dave directly to the D7s, I simply didn't want to compromise on transparency and resolution. With Dave driving the D7s directly, I put my ears on the tweeters and there is no noise at all, I mean literally ZERO noise, this is crazy, I haven't had any amplifier that it is DEAD quiet. This explains why I am enjoying now low level late night listening, as I feel that all the details are there, hard to describe what I am hearing, it is pure enjoyment.

 

My Tidal now sounds way better than my locally stored music in my previous system. You won't believe that this is streaming, it is like high res playing. The modded switch with Dave takes Tidal to a completely different level.

For now, I am waiting for the delivery of my Omegas which at 98db and 8Ohms impedance, will be a piece of cake for Dave, so I expect that I will get better dynamics and effortless delivery of music. Given what I am hearing with the D7s now, I am not sure that the Omegas will be better in all aspects.

 

Finally, big thanks to all the contributors to this thread and especially @Romaz and @ElviaCaprice for their advice and helpful tips.

 

To be continued!

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the feedback!  What speaker cable do you use ?  

 

This is something that intrigues me since I'm after a new dac, pre and amp as well perhaps considering a speaker change.

 

I gather reading from someones Chord Hugo 2 head-fi review that you can do similar although they thought one needed a sub.  

 

Would anybody know if one could use the Chord TT instead of the Dave?

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, rickca said:

 

 

What led you to dual tX-USBultra?  Were you not using an ISO REGEN followed by a tx-USBultra before?

I did my tests of 1 vs 2 txs as I wanted to validate the "theory" of cascading high quality clocks since I have no Sms200 ultra. I found out the two tXs in series does improve resolution and definition of notes

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13 minutes ago, jaspal kallar said:

 

 

Thanks for the feedback!  What speaker cable do you use ?  

 

This is something that intrigues me since I'm after a new dac, pre and amp as well perhaps considering a speaker change.

 

I gather reading from someones Chord Hugo 2 head-fi review that you can do similar although they thought one needed a sub.  

 

Would anybody know if one could use the Chord TT instead of the Dave?

 

 

 

 

 

In short, yes and yes.  I use the 2Qute which has even less output.  Sub will depend on your efficient speaker choice, room size/listening position and taste.

For about $20, I built my own RCA to banana cables.  But you can order boutique cables to your specs.

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10 minutes ago, jaspal kallar said:

 

 

Thanks for the feedback!  What speaker cable do you use ?  

 

This is something that intrigues me since I'm after a new dac, pre and amp as well perhaps considering a speaker change.

 

I gather reading from someones Chord Hugo 2 head-fi review that you can do similar although they thought one needed a sub.  

 

Would anybody know if one could use the Chord TT instead of the Dave?

 

 

 

 

I build my own cables. I use Neotech 3004 mk2 terminated with WBT nextgen copper bananas. I think Hugo 2 can do the trick 

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31 minutes ago, mozes said:

Thank you Micael, you made me discover the magic of Entreq. Their effect on Dave is very minimal compared to Nimitra and the switch

 

Well, it would almost be a dissapointment if the Entreq improved on a DAC like the Dave.? Serious high-end stuff! ?

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1 minute ago, Cornan said:

 

Well, it would almost be a dissapointment if the Entreq improved on a DAC like the Dave.? Serious high-end stuff! ?

I expected it to make a difference as Dave has a switching PSU, but it seems it is very immune. I plugged it to one dedicated circuit shared by nothing else and then plugged it to the same curcuit with my digital gear, no difference in performance.

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Truly prophetic changes by @mozes! :D

 

I am delighted to hear of your results. Very inspiring! I am sensing a 10MHz Reference Clock on the horizon. Do you see it too?

 

1 hour ago, mozes said:

only 2 watts!!

 

Yeah, but they're Rob Watts. 9_9

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7 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Truly prophetic changes by @mozes! :D

 

I am delighted to hear of your results. Very inspiring! I am sensing a 10MHz Reference Clock on the horizon. Do you see it too?

 

 

Yeah, but they're Rob Watts. 9_9

The Ref clock is on the horizon for sure but this needs sometime till we have a clear view on the performance of the SOTM Ref clock.

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Using Dave as a DAC/preamp/amp is certainly a one box solution :) But the pasta source in front is very expensive indeed.

 

Looking at Ayre QX-5 as a DAC only, it should be one of the best out there, as many people have chosen it over the Chord Dave (just google other forums). And vice versa of course, as this is always a matter of taste. But with all the fine digital inputs it offers, and all reclocked by the superior master clock inside the unit (even spdif) - therefore every connection is asynchronous as the Ayre clock is not slaving the timing to any digital source (it's always the master - and this is a pending patent by Charles Hensen), internal Ayre proprietary RFI filtering, a word clock output (for further enhancing the performance of a good quality cd transport with a word clock input - dCS and Esoteric transports naturally come to mind) and Roon support - I think it offers superb value. Just count the cost of the spagetti solution - it can easily pile up to more than $7,000 with all the fancy power supplies, clock, Ethernet and USB cables, etc.;and one still has to fork out serious money on a fine performing DAC to match the source. So I have to applaud the forward thinking of the QX-5 designers.

 

However, I don't have an Ayre dealer anywhere near me, so I have never heard it in person, and therefore a possible A/B test of the spagetti vs. QX-5 by @austinpop would be of tremendous value for all of us still hesitating to go for the spagetti :)

 

 

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26 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

Using Dave as a DAC/preamp/amp is certainly a one box solution :) But the pasta source in front is very expensive indeed.

 

 

 

Doesn't have to be.  Read Roy's post.  Here we have verifiable proof.  We yet to hear of a comparison with the QX-5, thus I would error on the side of caution to the proven best here so far.

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1 minute ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Doesn't have to be.  Read Roy's post.  Here we have verifiable proof.  We yet to hear of a comparison with the QX-5, thus I would error on the side of caution to the proven best here so far.

I agree as well, I already had most of my spaghetti. It is over the top now and probably overkill with Dave, but the other argument is that Dave is very revealing and shows any tiny improvement upstream.

I would be happy with only Nimitra+tX USB ultra+Dave

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