A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[austinpop]

16 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Received back my NUC, SCLK EX, tX bexp pcie card from SOtM.   Everything was very well packed and labled, no instructions.   Three of the 4 clock leads were labled 1 thru 3 coming out of the NUC.  I proceeded to hook up everything to the sclk ex board.  Ran 12v power to the sclk ex.  Started up the NUC, just loud beeps, different patterns often ending in a long continous beep, unable to boot.   Checked all the leads, resat the memory styx, pulled the mobo, etc.  The NUC in my opinion is lost.  Emailed SOtM, waiting on engineer reply, time is running out.   

Fortunately the last, 4th clock to the txbexp pcie card works great.  So I quickly modified my pico-itx to accommodate the pcie slot, no optimizations, external usb hdd for library.  Smps on the 2qute and mobo.  Lps1 on the iso regen, sclk ex and txbexp.  Sounds really good,  the txbexp in conjunction with the sclk ex adds great sound stage, detail.  

Paul Hynes ps should be here in two weeks.

 

That's a real bummer. Hope you get it sorted out. 

 

I have to to admit I don't quite understand what your setup is, from your description. Maybe once you have it all working, give us a clearer view. 

 

For example: are the sCLK-EX and the tX-USBexp boards supposed to go into slots in the NUC? Or are we talking 2 different computers here?

 

Finally, I'm only used to the SMB attachments on the end points. Those are labeled with the frequency (24 or 25 MHz). Sounds like your 3 NUC clock leads were not labeled? That's nuts!

[ElviaCaprice]

46 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

That's a real bummer. Hope you get it sorted out. 

 

I have to to admit I don't quite understand what your setup is, from your description. Maybe once you have it all working, give us a clearer view. 

 

For example: are the sCLK-EX and the tX-USBexp boards supposed to go into slots in the NUC? Or are we talking 2 different computers here?

 

Finally, I'm only used to the SMB attachments on the end points. Those are labeled with the frequency (24 or 25 MHz). Sounds like your 3 NUC clock leads were not labeled? That's nuts!

I use a pcie adapter that attatches to the mini pcie slot on the NUC or PICO-ITX motherboards, separate computers.  The adapter allows the pcie 1x lane to reside outside the computer, attatched by a long ribbon cable.  The sCLK-EX sits separate on its own, it's just a card mouted on a metal tray.   The SMB attachments are labled with frequency and clock number corresponding to the sCLK-EX.  Having replaced three clocks on the NUC mobo, the problem could be any one of those clocks.  It's so easy to destroy a mobo when replacing parts on those boards.  I would have assumed SoTM tested the NUC before shipping?  Mislabled clock?  All we can do is try some simple tests on my end.

 

 

The SCLK EX residesat the top of the photo,  in the middle resides pico-itx with the pcie 1x adapter connected to the txbexp card (they are both upside down), uspcb connects the txbexp card to the iso regen,  another uspcb connects the iso regen to the 2Qute.  Speaker cables from 2qute to the Omegas.

[lmitche]

9 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I use a pcie adapter that attatches to the mini pcie slot on the NUC or PICO-ITX motherboards, separate computers.  The adapter allows the pcie 1x lane to reside outside the computer, attatched by a long ribbon cable.  The sCLK-EX sits separate on its own, it's just a card mouted on a metal tray.   The SMB attachments are labled with frequency and clock number corresponding to the sCLK-EX.  Having replaced three clocks on the NUC mobo, the problem could be any one of those clocks.  It's so easy to destroy a mobo when replacing parts on those boards.  I would have assumed SoTM tested the NUC before shipping?  Mislabled clock?  All we can do is try some simple tests on my end.

Elvia, How are you playing anything without the NUC?

[ElviaCaprice]

17 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Elvia, How are you playing anything without the NUC?

Larry, I am using the pico-itx in replacement.  Obviously minus the three other clocks on the sclk ex.

 

 

I must say, the s-clk ex (2nd photo) is the key to the magic of the txbexp pcie card (1st photo)

[lmitche]

49 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Larry, I am using the pico-itx in replacement.  Obviously minus the three other clocks on the sclk ex.

 

 

I must say, the s-clk ex (2nd photo) is the key to the magic of the txbexp pcie card (1st photo)

Got it! LOL, my eyesight is changing.  I read that you were were using a pico-atx and I was wondering how a power supply made music. Your m.2 pcie cable solution is very clever.

[MikeyFresh]

On 8/16/2017 at 0:46 PM, austinpop said:

 

That looks real nice! I have been searching here on US sites, and have not found any black anodized options. This one looks to be a perfect size, but not particularly good looking:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073QS338W

 

Will continue searching. It seems like 100x70mm would cover most of the top.

 

I use two of these sourced from eBay, took only 4 days from Hong Kong to NY. That same seller has many other available options.

 

Not the prettiest, but very effective, the LPS-1 is only warm to the touch now powering the combo of a microRendu and bus powered DAC:

 

 

[unbalanced output]

@austinpop PC mod shops carry heatsinks. In US you can look at FrozenCPU for example, they have hundreds of heatsinks of all sizes.

 

I would use a thermal pad. Thermal paste would be even better but it is messy and doesn't hold the heatsink in place.

 

 @Ciukas  - thermal pads do increase the thermal conductivity. Simply placing the heatsink on top of a surface is not efficient. Thermal pads are actually quite efficient conductors and their conductivity increases with temperature. In order to get good conductivity only by contact, the surface finish must be very good and joined with pressure. Thermal paste is even better. 

 

[George Hincapie]

Thermal cement might be a better, but permenant, choice. I believe Artic Silver make such a product. 

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

I use two of these sourced from eBay, took only 4 days from Hong Kong to NY. That same seller has many other available options.

 

Not the prettiest, but very effective, the LPS-1 is only warm to the touch now powering the combo of a microRendu and bus powered DAC:

 

 

 

Nice one MikeyFresh! I personally think it looks awesome! ?

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

I use two of these sourced from eBay, took only 4 days from Hong Kong to NY. That same seller has many other available options.

 

Not the prettiest, but very effective, the LPS-1 is only warm to the touch now powering the combo of a microRendu and bus powered DAC:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, unbalanced output said:

@austinpop PC mod shops carry heatsinks. In US you can look at FrozenCPU for example, they have hundreds of heatsinks of all sizes.

 

I would use a thermal pad. Thermal paste would be even better but it is messy and doesn't hold the heatsink in place.

 

 @Ciukas  - thermal pads do increase the thermal conductivity. Simply placing the heatsink on top of a surface is not efficient. Thermal pads are actually quite efficient conductors and their conductivity increases with temperature. In order to get good conductivity only by contact, the surface finish must be very good and joined with pressure. Thermal paste is even better. 

 

 

1 hour ago, George Hincapie said:

Thermal cement might be a better, but permenant, choice. I believe Artic Silver make such a product. 

 

Thanks for all the info.

 

I hear you on the thermal efficacy of pads/cement etc, but for now, I'll be happy if just surface contact reduces the temperature, even if not in the most efficient way.

 

I have this butt-ugly one on order for now, just to see how it does: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073QS338W

 

I'll take before and after thermal readings to see how well it does.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

I see you love your PSUs enough to put them on a pedestal. 

[motberg]

8 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Larry, I am using the pico-itx in replacement.  Obviously minus the three other clocks on the sclk ex.

 

 

I must say, the s-clk ex (2nd photo) is the key to the magic of the txbexp pcie card (1st photo)

To me this is very interesting, it seems like the ( s-clk ex clocked) txbexp card is an improvement, even though it is earlier in the signal path than the iso regen ... ?

[Ciukas]

@unbalanced output  Again, I mentioned thermal pads are useful if a heatsink does not sit perfectly flush w a component as you've also reiterated in your post. I do not think the LPS-1's scenario requires such extreme measures. Thermal paste is not applicable in this scenario as well so point moot. Why not include liquid metal while we're at it?

 

Thermal pad efficiency increases as temperature rises, yes, but the best commercial pads only have thermal ratings up to 17w/mK (the 17s gets brittle and dry after a while). In contrast, aluminum has a rating of 250w/mK. There is no contest. Anyway, I do not wish to harp on this any further as this is an audio forum and not a overclocker's sanctuary. 

[ElviaCaprice]

2 hours ago, motberg said:

To me this is very interesting, it seems like the ( s-clk ex clocked) txbexp card is an improvement, even though it is earlier in the signal path than the iso regen ... ?

That is correct.  Others have found the tx ultra also better preceding the iso regen.  What I like better about the txusbexp is that it is friendly for using the USPCB in the stream, preceding the ISO Regen.  I'm sure if the NUC would have worked, that I would have found even better SQ and these clocks a prime candidate for a master clock upgrade.

That being said, I'm quite impressed with what the single SOtM component, txusbexp, has brought in improved SQ.in conjunction with the ISO Regen.   I'm sure the Paul Hynes SR7 will solidify that once received.  Then the server, 2qute and sclk ex will each get a clean quality 12V supply.

 

 

 

[unbalanced output]

6 hours ago, Ciukas said:

@unbalanced output  Again, I mentioned thermal pads are useful if a heatsink does not sit perfectly flush w a component as you've also reiterated in your post. I do not think the LPS-1's scenario requires such extreme measures. Thermal paste is not applicable in this scenario as well so point moot. Why not include liquid metal while we're at it?

 

Thermal pad efficiency increases as temperature rises, yes, but the best commercial pads only have thermal ratings up to 17w/mK (the 17s gets brittle and dry after a while). In contrast, aluminum has a rating of 250w/mK. There is no contest. Anyway, I do not wish to harp on this any further as this is an audio forum and not a overclocker's sanctuary. 

 

You cannot get the same thermal conductivity of pure aluminium in an interface. Since on top of that the surface is anodised, you have to divide that number by 20 or 30 depending on the thickness, then reduce it again by a factor due to surface finish. So yeah, just sitting the heat sink on top of a device is pretty much a waste, best case scenario you're getting half of the heat transfer a cheap thermal pad would give. Sitting the LPS1 on its side will probably be more efficient than that (good suggestion by Superdad btw).

 

The LPS1 runs just warm for me since my dac uses its own power supply. 

[AmusedToD]

Just a quick question for those familiar with digital clocks. Would it be possible to modify an Ethernet switch by installing a BNC word clock input so that the switch could be connected to an external master clock (say something from dCS or Mutec)?

[George Hincapie]

7 hours ago, Ciukas said:

@unbalanced output  Again, I mentioned thermal pads are useful if a heatsink does not sit perfectly flush w a component as you've also reiterated in your post. I do not think the LPS-1's scenario requires such extreme measures. Thermal paste is not applicable in this scenario as well so point moot. Why not include liquid metal while we're at it?

 

Thermal pad efficiency increases as temperature rises, yes, but the best commercial pads only have thermal ratings up to 17w/mK (the 17s gets brittle and dry after a while). In contrast, aluminum has a rating of 250w/mK. There is no contest. Anyway, I do not wish to harp on this any further as this is an audio forum and not a overclocker's sanctuary. 

 

Thermal pads are a poor choice in my experience; they are too thick (you want only a tiny amount of transfer material in the contact area) and are not made of the most efficent material. PC Overclockers have used silver based compounds for over a decade for a reason.

 

I don't accept your final comment either; the disciplines are overlapping more all the time and 'audiophiles' should always seek to use knowledge from the PC world to their advantage.

[Ciukas]

@unbalanced output  Point taken. Let's call it a difference of opinions. The important thing is that Austin got his fix

 

@George Hincapie  Not sure why you quoted me? That's what I've been saying all along about pads, you're preaching to the choir. Also, you misunderstand me - my final comment was meant to discourage derailing this thread as the matter was already resolved and not as you indicated to spurn knowledge from other 'disciplines'.

[George Hincapie]

42 minutes ago, Ciukas said:

@unbalanced output  Point taken. Let's call it a difference of opinions. The important thing is that Austin got his fix

 

@George Hincapie  Not sure why you quoted me? That's what I've been saying all along about pads, you're preaching to the choir. Also, you misunderstand me - my final comment was meant to discourage derailing this thread as the matter was already resolved and not as you indicated to spurn knowledge from other 'disciplines'.

 

The thread wasn't being derailed; it's all relevant. If not to the OP then to others reading. Regardless, let's move on.

[austinpop]

This is going to be a long 2-3 weeks.

 

@Bamber's ISO-Regen is on its way back. My Ultra trifecta is on its way to May to be retrofitted with the SMB connectors, and a master reference clock input on the tX-USBultra.

 

In the meantime, I am using "just" this chain:

- Roon core bridged > mR > Lush USB > DAC.

 

This was state of the art just a year ago. Now - wow, how much further we've come!

 

Hope @Superdad hits his Aug 24 target for my own ISO-R that's on order, so I can at least get some of the magic back.

[austinpop]

@ElviaCaprice

 

Just curious - what frequency(ies) are the 3 mobo sCLK taps set at?

 

I only know what they (SOtM) use for USB (24MHz) and Ethernet (25MHz) controllers, but I was wondering what frequencies mobo mods need.

 

Again - just curious. Hoping your NUC issues get resolved.

[Bamber]

Has anyone with a 12v sMS-200ultra tried the 6.5V~8.4v setting in this option table on their sCLK-EX board?

 

[ElviaCaprice]

15 hours ago, austinpop said:

@ElviaCaprice

 

Just curious - what frequency(ies) are the 3 mobo sCLK taps set at?

 

I only know what they (SOtM) use for USB (24MHz) and Ethernet (25MHz) controllers, but I was wondering what frequencies mobo mods need.

 

Again - just curious. Hoping your NUC issues get resolved.

Hi Rajiv,

The 3 clocks are as follows for the NUC,

12MHz 

25MHz

25MHz

I wouldn't know what each clock corresponds to on the mobo.  From past experience, usually the main system clock is 25MHz.   Why the repeat of two clocks at 25MHz, when both clocks on the mobo could have been fed from the same SCLK EX clock?  Different voltage?

I did request NOT to replace any ethernet or usb clocks on the mobo since with this mobo I would use the single sata port only.

I also requested that if one clock was left open to make it ready for my own DIY of the iso regen.  Obviously that did not happen.

There has been no contact concerning the NUC from SOtM.  Considering all the different beep signal patterns I get on powering up the NUC, I can only assume that the mobo is lost.  Now it's a question of options to rectify the situation.  Unfortunately my time is limited here in the states before I depart to my home in Costa Rica.   There it can be impossible to receive and send items in safe, affordable fashion.

 

I await their aknowledgment and solution/options. 

 

[RickyV]

i am also interested in replaceing the clock on my mobo but how can i measure the necessary voltage? Do i need a oscilloscope for that or can i do it with a multimeter?

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Hi Rajiv,

The 3 clocks are as follows for the NUC,

12MHz 

25MHz

25MHz

I wouldn't know what each clock corresponds to on the mobo.  From past experience, usually the main system clock is 25MHz.   Why the repeat of two clocks at 25MHz, when both clocks on the mobo could have been fed from the same SCLK EX clock?  Different voltage?

I did request NOT to replace any ethernet or usb clocks on the mobo since with this mobo I would use the single sata port only.

I also requested that if one clock was left open to make it ready for my own DIY of the iso regen.  Obviously that did not happen.

There has been no contact concerning the NUC from SOtM.  Considering all the different beep signal patterns I get on powering up the NUC, I can only assume that the mobo is lost.  Now it's a question of options to rectify the situation.  Unfortunately my time is limited here in the states before I depart to my home in Costa Rica.   There it can be impossible to receive and send items in safe, affordable fashion.

 

I await their aknowledgment and solution/options. 

 

 

I do hope you get this resolved.

 

The 25MHz frequency for the main system clock makes sense, as I know the sMS-200 requires a 24MHz clock (for the USB controller) and a 25MHz clock (for the ethernet controller, and presumably, for the the main system clock).