A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

Actually, my NAS is a Synology 916+ 4-bay. As you may recall, I beat my head on bridging the 2 NICs before giving up.  

Rajiv,

 

Your NAS is a fully loaded intel n3700 quad core machine.  You can indeed run any os you like including Windows or Linux, so you could dump DSM and run an OS that supports bridging natively.

 

I looked for virtual switch capability in the docs, and there is something on DSM, but it's not clear if it works outside the virtual machine capability. A call to Synology may be worthwhile unless you've done this already.

 

Anyway, I think there is a lot more you can do to increase the SQ in the middle and ASININE end of your chain.

[kennyb123]

On 7/5/2017 at 8:31 PM, kennyb123 said:

I received my second USPCB tonight.  So I am now listening with no USB cable in the USB path.  In other words:  microRendu > USPCB > ISO REGEN > USPCB > Hugo TT.

It's hot tonight - 81 degrees in the listening room - so two fans are blowing.  I will offer initial impressions nonetheless:  knowing what I know now, there's no chance I'll ever want to throw the Audience Au24 USB cable back in.  I've been floored - particularly in light of the cost of the USPCB ($35).  Ridiculous.  

 

I'll share additional findings later tonight after it cools down.

 

The temperatures here finally cooled down enough to allow me to kill both fans in my listening room.  So an update on what I hear from swapping a USPCB for the Audience Au24 SE USB cable as described in my quoted post from nearly a week ago...

 

As good as the Audience USB cable was - and it was very good, beating a few others at and above its price - relative to the USPCB it's clear it had been doing some harm.  Clarity with the USPCB in its place is noticeably improved such that it was obvious even with two fans spinning.  Resolution and low level detail have improved such that I've been finding myself surprised by the appearance of voices and instruments that previously went unnoticed.  There's an increase in ease and naturalness, as if there's been a reduction in noise and grain. Tone and timbre are a bit more natural too, with instruments and voices sounding more realistic.  Some smearing has been eliminated too, resulting in a tighter focus and more "snap".  The improvement in clarity was greatest of all these improvements though.  Definitely a case of the proverbial veil having been stripped away.

 

I'm inclined to say that the improvement from eliminating my USB cable in favor of the USPCB might have nearly been on par magnitude-wise as adding the ISO REGEN. Difficult to say for sure and probably not entirely fair to the ISO REGEN.  My guess is that both the ISO REGEN and microRendu are getting a boost from the improved signal integrity from this very direct USB pathway.

 

When the $3500 Nordost Valhalla 2 USB was announced I didn't think I wanted to hear what it could do.  I do now.  I suspect that the only cable that might be able to match the $35 USPCB might be one in that completely insane price range.  Wrap your head around that one.  

 

The USPCB is another winner from the brilliant minds at UpTone.  A huge thanks to @JohnSwensonand @Superdad for bringing the USPCB to market and for making it so darn affordable.

[tapatrick]

19 hours ago, lmitche said:

 We just don't know enough about MBP sound, at least I don't.

 

I understand Rajiv asked not to read too much into his experiment, but ? I run an optimised USB set up with a newly introduced IR. (see signature) Occasionally I swop in my MacBook Pro in for one reason or another as source running Roon and I really can't stand it for more than a short time as the sound is unbearable. I also see others mention it as their source and wonder how they get this to work satisfactorily. 

The point I'm making and I'm sure Rajiv will concur the MBP as source is not a good comparison with his trifecta. 

[Middy]

Have a look at inner fidelity or PM Tyll Hertsen if you need specific cans for work with good tonal balance. @Superdad

 

He and now Jude of HF do testing for frequency humps. The high end focal top end is crystal sharp and the lcd4 smooth and rich.  Upgraded Ether Flows I have I do like and glad I have them. HD 800s was pin point in places. The proto ether electrostats sound fantastic so floating and light.

 But Austin is spot on that with so many US firms doing trials and just a return post fee.Get them on your rig and head first. But my experiences were just 5 mins in a small meet environment...

A few weeks at home would be fantastic.

Just my 2 cents worth 

But apologies for over simplified semi patronising post.. just in case others don't know on the headphone side of things. .

Good luck

Dave

 

Oh the new Mr speakers sub $800  was measured and tested by Tyll and he rates them..

[mozes]

6 hours ago, tapatrick said:

 

I understand Rajiv asked not to read too much into his experiment, but ? I run an optimised USB set up with a newly introduced IR. (see signature) Occasionally I swop in my MacBook Pro in for one reason or another as source running Roon and I really can't stand it for more than a short time as the sound is unbearable. I also see others mention it as their source and wonder how they get this to work satisfactorily. 

The point I'm making and I'm sure Rajiv will concur the MBP as source is not a good comparison with his trifecta. 

I was at a friend's place a few weeks ago who has a very simple setup: Mac Book Pro>AQ Red Dragon Fly>Amp>Speakers

 

I replaced the MBP with my iphone and switched the Airplane Mode ON, and played Tidal from my locally saved music on the Tidal app. We both looked at each other and smiled. Yes the iphone in airplane mode was clearly better than the MBP.

 

Don't underestimate your iphones as sources

[Always.Learning]

Yesterday I received the final part of my "Ultra trifecta" package from SOtM. I had hoped to be able to run both the SOtM-modded switch (a D-Link supplied by Crux Audio) and the sMS-200 Ultra from a single LPS-1 using a Y-cable supplied by Ghent Audio. I had SOtM modify the switch so that it accepts a 7 volt power supply so that I could (theoretically) run the LPS-1 at 7 volts for both switch and sMS-200 Ultra. I can now confirm that this combination is just too great a load for the LPS-1 -- the power supply would alternately power on and off when I hooked up both components with the Y-cable. Just powering the sMS-200 Ultra, the LPS-1 gets quite toasty. 

 

I know Rajiv has successfully used an LPS-1 and Y cable to power his modded sMS-200 and modded Zyxel switch, but he was very careful to point out that the sMS-200 Ultra might require more power. He was right. 

 

I now have another question for Rajiv and anyone else who wants to chime in. I will be purchasing another LPS-1 so that I can power my modified Ultra switch at 7 volts. I'm also thinking of purchasing the ISO REGEN and using my Y-cable to power both the Ultra switch and the ISO REGEN at 7 volts. IIRC, Rajiv has successfully run both his modified Zyxel switch and ISO REGEN using a Y-cable and LPS-1. Rajiv, could you confirm that this is true? Does anyone else have relevant opinions or feedback?

 

Although I have only had one short listening session with the tX-USB Ultra and sMS-200 Ultra in my system and the components are (obviously) still burning in, I easily heard very significant improvements from these two components. Some of those improvements may be due to the new SOtM dCBL-Cat7 ethernet cable I am running between source and sMS-200 Ultra. FWIW, my source is a Mac Mini with the MMK mod by Uptone, powered by Uptone's JS-2, running Roon. I'm looking forward to inserting the Ultra-fied switch and possibly ISO REGEN in the future and will report back. 

 

 

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, tapatrick said:

The point I'm making and I'm sure Rajiv will concur the MBP as source is not a good comparison with his trifecta. 

 

1 hour ago, mozes said:

Yes the iphone in airplane mode was clearly better than the MBP.

 

OK guys - got it. MBP bad. ✓

 

Now let's wait for someone who has a legitimately optimized direct USB setup compare against an Ultra trifecta chain.

 

Clearly won't be me! 

[austinpop]

21 minutes ago, Always.Learning said:

Yesterday I received the final part of my "Ultra trifecta" package from SOtM. I had hoped to be able to run both the SOtM-modded switch (a D-Link supplied by Crux Audio) and the sMS-200 Ultra from a single LPS-1 using a Y-cable supplied by Ghent Audio. I had SOtM modify the switch so that it accepts a 7 volt power supply so that I could (theoretically) run the LPS-1 at 7 volts for both switch and sMS-200 Ultra. I can now confirm that this combination is just too great a load for the LPS-1 -- the power supply would alternately power on and off when I hooked up both components with the Y-cable. Just powering the sMS-200 Ultra, the LPS-1 gets quite toasty. 

 

I know Rajiv has successfully used an LPS-1 and Y cable to power his modded sMS-200 and modded Zyxel switch, but he was very careful to point out that the sMS-200 Ultra might require more power. He was right. 

 

Ugh, bummer! But worth a shot.

 

21 minutes ago, Always.Learning said:

I now have another question for Rajiv and anyone else who wants to chime in. I will be purchasing another LPS-1 so that I can power my modified Ultra switch at 7 volts. I'm also thinking of purchasing the ISO REGEN and using my Y-cable to power both the Ultra switch and the ISO REGEN at 7 volts. IIRC, Rajiv has successfully run both his modified Zyxel switch and ISO REGEN using a Y-cable and LPS-1. Rajiv, could you confirm that this is true? Does anyone else have relevant opinions or feedback?

 

I've not actually tried that - running the switch and the ISO-R off of the same LPS-1. I'm fairly confident that current capacity-wise, it should work. The only caveat is the following. Consider the chain:

• modded switch > sMS-200ultra > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra > DAC
• __________________________________| |_________________________
• __________________________Isolation Moat_____________________

Now remember - the ISO-Regen is bus powered upstream of the moat. It's own PSU - the LPS-1, say - powers the circuitry downstream of the isolation moat. If you use a single LPS-1 to power the switch and the ISO-R, that LPS-1 is spanning across the moat, and theoretically, defeating the isolation.

 

How much does this matter, practically and sonically? Well, only your ears will tell. If you want to be absolutely pristine, obviously then you need separate LPS-1s. But that's an expensive option. The better approach may be to start with a single LPS-1 and experiment. Compare:

• LPS-1 powering modded switch AND ISO-Regen via Y-cable to:
• LPS-1 only powering ISO-R, and use an alternate supply - LPS or battery - to power switch.

 

21 minutes ago, Always.Learning said:

Although I have only had one short listening session with the tX-USB Ultra and sMS-200 Ultra in my system and the components are (obviously) still burning in, I easily heard very significant improvements from these two components. Some of those improvements may be due to the new SOtM dCBL-Cat7 ethernet cable I am running between source and sMS-200 Ultra. FWIW, my source is a Mac Mini with the MMK mod by Uptone, powered by Uptone's JS-2, running Roon. I'm looking forward to inserting the Ultra-fied switch and possibly ISO REGEN in the future and will report back. 

 

Awesome! Can't wait to hear your impressions.

[Johnseye]

15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

 

OK guys - got it. MBP bad. ✓

 

Now let's wait for someone who has a legitimately optimized direct USB setup compare against an Ultra trifecta chain.

 

Clearly won't be me! 

 

If you want to send me your ultra trifecta I'll test once the SR7 and IR come in at the end of the month/beginning of Aug.  I won't upgrade my sms-200 until I hear the IR direct, depending on how that goes.  I just sold my mR so that's now out of the equation.

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

If you want to send me your ultra trifecta ...

 

Sorry - no can do. Due to the hardwired clock cables, I'm paranoid about how much physical stress it can tolerate in shipping.

 

In fact, I am getting close to biting the bullet and just sending it back to SOtM to be re-done using the SMB terminations, so I can use detachable Digikey clock cables. At that time I'll probably just spring for them to add a master clock connector for future proofing.

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Sorry - no can do. Due to the hardwired clock cables, I'm paranoid about how much physical stress it can tolerate in shipping.

 

In fact, I am getting close to biting the bullet and just sending it back to SOtM to be re-done using the SMB terminations, so I can use detachable Digikey clock cables. At that time I'll probably just spring for them to add a master clock connector for future proofing.

 

I wonder how long until their next Ultra or Super Ultra model.  Any idea on the life cycle of USB clocks?

[Always.Learning]

18 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I've not actually tried that - running the switch and the ISO-R off of the same LPS-1.

 

Rajiv -- thank you for the information and advice. A question for you:  Your sig says you are running 3 LPS-1s and yet, unless I'm mistaken, you are powering four components with these three power supplies:  the Ultra trifecta plus the ISO REGEN, correct? So doesn't that mean that two of those components are sharing an LPS-1, or are you using a different supply for one of the components (e.g., the switch)? How do you avoid the "moat" issue you describe above?

[austinpop]

8 minutes ago, Always.Learning said:

 

Rajiv -- thank you for the information and advice. A question for you:  Your sig says you are running 3 LPS-1s and yet, unless I'm mistaken, you are powering four components with these three power supplies:  the Ultra trifecta plus the ISO REGEN, correct? So doesn't that mean that two of those components are sharing an LPS-1, or are you using a different supply for one of the components (e.g., the switch)? How do you avoid the "moat" issue you describe above?

 

Ah - the key difference is I don't have an sMS-200ultra. I have the regular sMS-200, modded. I believe it is the sCLK-EX board (in the Ultra boxes) that requires significant current. I only have one Ultra box, the tX-USBultra. You have 2 - the sMS-200ultra and the tX-USBultra.

 

I run the switch and the modded sMS-200 off of one LPS-1 no problem, and since both are upstream of the moat, I don't span the boundary. And as I've noted with my tests with the GI switch on the ISO-R, I do hear a (small) benefit from the isolation.

 

Here's the detailed LPS-1 usage:

1. LPS-1 #1: modded switch and modded sMS-200, using Ghent Y-cable
2. LPS-1 #2: ISO-Regen
3. LPS-1 #3: tX-USBultra

In order of toastiness, my LPS-1 #3 is the toastiest, followed by LPS-1 #1, followed by LPS-1 #2.

 

Hope this helps.

[Johnseye]

You think we go to extremes.  Look what this guy did to get good power.

 

 

[Always.Learning]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Hope this helps.

 

Yes, thanks for the typical thorough and intelligent reply!

[austinpop]

6 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

You think we go to extremes.  Look what this guy did to get good power.

 

 

 

 

 

Wait - that 2nd guy who has to move his couch to open the fridge has a girlfriend?! Somehow I doubt it. 

[Always.Learning]

Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheap linear power supply or battery supply that could supply 7 volts to power my SOtM-modified switch -- I'd like to conduct the experiment that Rajiv has suggested a few posts above. My first thought was a Jameco LPS but they don't seem to make a 7 volt version. Any and all suggestions appreciated!

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Always.Learning said:

Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheap linear power supply or battery supply that could supply 7 volts to power my SOtM-modified switch -- I'd like to conduct the experiment that Rajiv has suggested a few posts above. My first thought was a Jameco LPS but they don't seem to make a 7 volt version. Any and all suggestions appreciated!

 

I'd strongly suggest you try the LPS-1 sharing across the moat anyway. It's quite possible the practical loss of SQ is small. After all, there are many people using the mR + ISO-R with one LPS-1, and this crosses the moat too.

 

Also, note that even if your modded switch accepts 7V, it may well work at 5V too. Mine works fine at both 5V and 7V. Jameco makes a decent 5V PSU.

 

Let me rummage through my drawers, I may be able to loan you something. You US-based? I'll PM you if I have something.

[kennyb123]

10 minutes ago, Always.Learning said:

Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheap linear power supply or battery supply that could supply 7 volts to power my SOtM-modified switch -- I'd like to conduct the experiment that Rajiv has suggested a few posts above. My first thought was a Jameco LPS but they don't seem to make a 7 volt version. Any and all suggestions appreciated!

 

You are welcome to borrow my "el cheapo".

[limniscate]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

If you want to send me your ultra trifecta I'll test once the SR7 and IR come in at the end of the month/beginning of Aug.  I won't upgrade my sms-200 until I hear the IR direct, depending on how that goes.  I just sold my mR so that's now out of the equation.

No need since I'm also getting a SR7DRMR2XL.  I ordered mine a few days after you ordered yours.

[austinpop]

9 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Let me rummage through my drawers, I may be able to loan you something. You US-based? I'll PM you if I have something.

 

I have a tiny Teradak U9VA I could send you. It has a 5v output via USB A, but I have a cable for that too.

 

6 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

You are welcome to borrow my "el cheapo".

 

This may be even better. El cheapo has an internal screw that can dial down the voltage to 7v if you want to go strictly by the book.

[muenchenlaim]

I can recomend the ZeroZone power supply. Great value for mony. "Also can accept custom-make other voltage and current， if you need,Please contact us"

see here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZEROZONE-SUPER-PSU-30VA-DC12V-1-3A-Linear-Power-supply-LPS-for-Audio-Sources-/321924706372?hash=item4af4353044:g:iDcAAOSw4UtWTUN8

 

Christoph

[Always.Learning]

Thanks for the generous offers on power supplies, Rajiv and Ken! Now that I think about it, I've actually got a 5v Jameco that I could try. And I will of course try spanning the moat with the LPS-1 -- assuming a negligible or zero sonic hit, that would be my preference. My DAC is a Chord DAVE, so I'm hoping that its own galvanic isolation will help (though I recall someone saying that they preferred to turn on the GI with their ISO REGEN even when using the DAVE). 

[ElviaCaprice]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 1:29 PM, austinpop said:

 

 

@ElviaCaprice and @lmitche: are you guys dabbling with the sCLK in your direct USB setups? Couldn't remember.

 

I've put on hold any sCLK EX dabbling.  Because I think the server, PC, is where we need the modifications, not just in clocks (they don't need to be expensive ones, the ISO Regen demonstrates that well) but how the power is handled in the mobo, linear regulators needed.  I can't justify spending on an expensive clocking board to basically end up with a Band-Aid to the problem.  Renderers are a great temporary solution but have their fallbacks on software capabilities and formats, so that's a non starter. 

I'm just going to live with it the best possible with the smallest mobo possible fed by a great power supply, streaming via USB, which is sounding great.  Hopefully Roy finds a solution/supplier for the audiophile mobo, then I think all these add on components/Renderers/clocking boards won't be needed, maybe just one component via USB, if even that. 

[austinpop]

45 minutes ago, Always.Learning said:

Thanks for the generous offers on power supplies, Rajiv and Ken! Now that I think about it, I've actually got a 5v Jameco that I could try. And I will of course try spanning the moat with the LPS-1 -- assuming a negligible or zero sonic hit, that would be my preference. My DAC is a Chord DAVE, so I'm hoping that its own galvanic isolation will help (though I recall someone saying that they preferred to turn on the GI with their ISO REGEN even when using the DAVE). 

 

Awesome. You're all set. Keep us posted.