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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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44 minutes ago, limniscate said:

However, I'm wondering if the Paul Hynes SR-7 will elevate the dX-USB Ultra past the SU-1 and whether the external master clock option could elevate the dX-USB as well.

 

If (and this is still the big if) you can get SOtM to agree to the SU-1, then SU-1 without doubt. 

  1. Since the SU-1 mod described by @Bamber  is to embed an sCLK-EX board inside the SU-1, and since the sCLK-EX board provides the master clock feature, then theoretically, SOtM should be able to expose the master clock input, just like they did for you in dX.
  2. If, as many seem to expect, the SR7 improves further over the LPS-1, then that too should be equally an option on the SU-1 as the dX, once the SU-1 has been modded to accept an external PSU input.

You should definitely ask SOtM to do your SU-1 mod, and then return the dX and iSO-Cat6 and dCBL7.

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1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Just trying to squeeze out the last drops of SQ using clean power, isolation and storage units with the recent innovations from our friends at Uptone Audio and Intel.

 

As you know - from our interactions on the various isolation threads - I too have experimented quite deeply in various forms of isolation, and have already incorporated a lot of this in my system.

 

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

No I am not dealing with replacement clocks for the moment, or maybe ever.

 

If you had told me 6 months ago that I would be replacing clocks, I'd have thought you were crazy! This is just another new dimension I chose to explore based on Roy's findings.

 

If you ever feel motivated to try it, it will be very interesting to hear how it improves your setup even further.

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54 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Rajiv (I gather that's your name from other posts :-). Sorry I haven't been on this site for months now), thanks for your response and the time you are taking to do these experiments. They are truly appreciate.

 

Dev, 

 

You're welcome. 

 

54 minutes ago, Dev said:

It opened up quiet some possibility on my end and I am considering replacing the mR with the sms-200Ultra w/ the Dlink switch mod to start with. Maybe add a ISO-R at a later point. 

 

This is a very sound approach to take incrementally. I think you'll be pleased.

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19 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Dev, 

 

You're welcome. 

 

 

This is a very sound approach to take incrementally. I think you'll be pleased.

 

I was thinking earlier that the UltraR might change the equation a little bit but then I read @romaz post where he claimed the sCLK-Ex board has much better clock than the Crystek. Though clocking is one aspect of good SQ but if I am not mistaken and read your post carefully, I think what you are saying is more importantly the synchronized clocks between the sms-200 and ethernet switch reduces timing and bit errors - "the secret sauce in the trifecta has to be the modded switch".

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50 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

 

Additionally, in this post I quoted something from this thread I posted back in April about Optane and it possibly reducing memory access noise.

 

I failed to understand this part - the memory access is the first place the OS will seek, when it faults it loads pages from the secondary storage back to the main memory. Are you saying that the Optane is acting as the primary memory ? If so, then IMO, its a big hammer. Note, I have yet to read up on the Optane tech. Maybe we should take this up on the Optane thread instead of polluting this one... 

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3 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

I failed to understand this part - the memory access is the first place the OS will seek, when it faults it loads pages from the secondary storage back to the main memory. Are you saying that the Optane is acting as the primary memory ? If so, then IMO, its a big hammer. Note, I have yet to read up on the Optane tech. Maybe we should take this up on the Optane thread instead of polluting this one... 

 

That's a quote from @JohnSwenson's article Q&A with John Swenson. Part 3: How bit-perfect software can affect sound.  Take a look at his article and how Optane works for the correlation.  We can further discuss this in Larry's Optane post.

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38 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

I was thinking earlier that the UltraR might change the equation a little bit but then I read @romaz post where he claimed the sCLK-Ex board has much better clock than the Crystek. Though clocking is one aspect of good SQ but if I am not mistaken and read your post carefully, I think what you are saying is more importantly the synchronized clocks between the sms-200 and ethernet switch reduces timing and bit errors - "the secret sauce in the trifecta has to be the modded switch".

 

These are all uncharted waters. It is tempting to see patterns and postulate theories, but I would say we are still at the stage of empirical observations.

 

I have certainly heard the benefit of what I've affectionately termed a "clockchain," a  sequence of reclockings/regeneration using a clock(s) of extremely high quality. However, it would be premature to conclude things like "synchronized clocks between the sms-200 and ethernet switch reduces timing and bit errors." The effect is clearly audible, but certainly not well understood.

 

Also, I want to clarify that I will not say a priori that the Ultrarendu will sound better or worse than anything. It is certainly likely that the UR+IR combo will produce excellent SQ. I am looking forward to the reports once they come in comparing this with the SOtM stack. 

 

Ain't competition great!

 

Oh, and if someone wants to send me an Ultrarendu to test...

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19 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

These are all uncharted waters. It is tempting to see patterns and postulate theories, but I would say we are still at the stage of empirical observations.

 

I have certainly heard the benefit of what I've affectionately termed a "clockchain," a  sequence of reclockings/regeneration using a clock(s) of extremely high quality. However, it would be premature to conclude things like "synchronized clocks between the sms-200 and ethernet switch reduces timing and bit errors." The effect is clearly audible, but certainly not well understood.

 

Also, I want to clarify that I will not say a priori that the Ultrarendu will sound better or worse than anything. It is certainly likely that the UR+IR combo will produce excellent SQ. I am looking forward to the reports once they come in comparing this with the SOtM stack. 

 

Ain't competition great!

 

Oh, and if someone wants to send me an Ultrarendu to test...

 

It certainly is uncharted waters considering many of the companies selling music server hardware aren't considering much of what we're testing here.  It's great that folks like Uptone, sotm and sonore are paying attention and helping to lead the way.

 

Everyone's needs and devices are different.  I personally jumped on the endpoint bandwagon not because I wanted my server in another room, but because of what I heard by filtering the noise out through ethernet.  As I clean up my power through better LPSUs that issue is being eliminated.  What needs to be compared when the power is clean is the ethernet approach to a straight USB connection.  As I mentioned before I can do it with a standard endpoint, but not with an "ultra" endpoint or SCLK chain.  Roy's experiments will tell us a lot as he's put extraordinary efforts into cleaning up his power and addressing every possible conceivable variable, at least for the moment.

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18 hours ago, austinpop said:

ISO-Regen meets Ultra Trifecta

Thank you for a very valuable post.  It's good to know that the SOtM ultra products play nice with the ISO REGEN.  I found experiments #1 and #2 particularly helpful.

 

Please remind me why you prefer the network renderer approach to plain USB.  Do you use HQPlayer/NAA or Roon?

The renderer is useful to me because my primary PC (i7-6700K) is in a different room than my main audio system ... I use it for gaming and productivity apps when I'm not listening to music.  

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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21 minutes ago, rickca said:

Please remind me why you prefer the network renderer approach to plain USB.  Do you use HQPlayer/NAA or Roon?

 

So many reasons!

  1. Aesthetically and for my soul, I want my listening experience to be about communing with the music, sitting in my recliner, and navigating my library with a phone or tablet. This is achievable now with direct attach, but not a few years ago.
  2. Architecturally (computer/network) - I find the distributed renderer/endpoint approach more elegant
  3. Yes, I use Roon now. Previously, I used MinimServer.
  4. I believe in only allowing low noise componentry close to my audio gear. I know with NUCs and bespoke audio computers, this is no  longer a show stopper, but for many years, this was the conventional wisdom.
  5. Finally, and this is the most practical reason of all - all of the above has led me to invest my funds disproportionately towards distributed components, and I have relied on stock cheap computers, placed far away from the audio gear, for the music serving. 
  6. For me to shift gears now would require me to spend considerable sums to achieve what proponents of the direct attach approach already have in their music players.
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19 hours ago, austinpop said:

1.  Replace tX-USBultra with ISO-Regen

    • Baseline:          Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra
    • Comparison:     Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen
    • Result: 
      • Very close. WOW. Very, very close! We are so impressed with the ISO-Regen. 

 

When you say "sMS-200 mod", does that mean the tX-USBultra clock is connected to the sMS-200 or was the clock cable unplugged to function just like a regular sMS-200 (non-ultra) during the above tests?

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1 minute ago, TopQuark said:

 

When you say "sMS-200 mod", does that mean the tX-USBultra clock is connected to the sMS-200 or was the clock cable unplugged to function just like a regular sMS-200 (non-ultra) during the above tests?

He can't unplug the clock cable on his mod; it's hard-wired.  So it's effectively a sMS-200 Ultra.

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5 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

So many reasons!

  1. Aesthetically and for my soul, I want my listening experience to be about communing with the music, sitting in my recliner, and navigating my library with a phone or tablet. This is achievable now with direct attach, but not a few years ago.
  2. Architecturally (computer/network) - I find the distributed renderer/endpoint approach more elegant
  3. Yes, I use Roon now. Previously, I used MinimServer.
  4. I believe in only allowing low noise componentry close to my audio gear. I know with NUCs and bespoke audio computers, this is no  longer a show stopper, but for many years, this was the conventional wisdom.
  5. Finally, and this is the most practical reason of all - all of the above has led me to invest my funds disproportionately towards distributed components, and I have relied on stock cheap computers, placed far away from the audio gear, for the music serving. 
  6. For me to shift gears now would require me to spend considerable sums to achieve what proponents of the direct attach approach already have in their music players.

 

Respectfully, investing less than $1k on a dedicated,  fanless, low power, small server would eliminate all of those reasons. You've already made an investment in several components which makes it emotionally hard to walk away from, but what would you do if you learned a direct USB connection resulted in superior sound quality? You're not as locked in as you think. 

 

I'm not trying to talk you out of or into anything. Please don't misunderstanding me. Just being a friend and pointing out there are many paths to your audio nirvana. 

 

I spent over $1k on two endpoints I may not use and that have been upgraded by their manufacturers in less than 6 months. I can only hope my $3k SR7 lasts a few years. I've tried to walk and talk a cautionary path but spent myself into some holes as well. But in the end I'm having fun doing it. 

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4 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

... but what would you do if you learned a direct USB connection resulted in superior sound quality? You're not as locked in as you think...

 

No argument. Let's wait for that first phrase to come true. 

 

Once the dust settles on Roy's experiments, and we see where he lands, I will look at the tally and decide where to go next. If direct USB beckons, I'll consider it. As I said, the landscape is different now.

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

So many reasons!

That was very articulate.  Good post!

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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After my last report, I'd taken a break from the music for a couple days to attend to some other pressing matters. So the ISO-Regen has continued to burn in, and is at about the 125 hour mark.

 

Tonight I sat down for another listen, and I have to say I am just grinning as I write this. The whole chain is singing right now:

  • modded Z-switch > modded sMS-200 > ISO-R > tX-USBultra. with 3 LPS-1s powering, and with Eric's dCBL-Cat7 in the mix.

Listening to one of my all time favorite albums:

folder.thumb.jpg.fe938f2a3688238e3aebccc9b95f2d7c.jpg

 

There is just a sense of such ease and richness of tone, it's giving me goosebumps. Clearly, the ISO-Regen benefits from significant burn in, as I suspect does the dCBL-Cat7 cable.

 

Oh did I mention - my order for the ISO-R has already been placed. :D

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And now on to another experiment. I've been thinking of folks like @lmitche, @ElviaCaprice, @Johnseye, and of course @mozes, and their deep satisfaction with their direct USB setups.

 

I know I've tried to enumerate the reasons I've gone down the path of the distributed endpoint architecture, and they continue to be good and perfectly rational, as are the reasons for the direct approach. But it had piqued my curiosity. I really should listen to the direct USB path for myself. So tonight I tried another experiment.

 

I set up a music player with the best resources I have at hand:

  1. Macbook Pro laptop running MacOS Sierra
  2. Installed Audirvana+ - been meaning to try this out to check out the MQA decoding
  3. I moved some test music on to the local SSD - I normally have Roon serve music from the NAS
  4. Found the best 2m USB cable in the house - fairly generic one that came with an older Benchmark DAC
  5. Ran the MBP on battery alone, disconnected from the mains
  6. Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter 

I then listened to the following chain:

  • MBP (battery powered) > ISO-R (LPS-1) > tX-USBultra (LPS-1)

and compared it to my reference chain:

  • bridged W10 Roon Core server > modded Z-switch > modded sMS-200 > ISO-R > tX-USBultra

To be honest, I really was not sure what I would hear. First of all, the MBP setup sounded amazing relative to what I've even heard directly from a laptop. But SQ wise, it was was still no match for to my reference chain. And the difference was not small.

 

Now - I would be the first to urge everyone not to read too much into this. The direct chain folks have heavily optimized their music servers, and I have no doubt those improvements matter. What this experiment confirmed for me is that for me to achieve what I already have with my endpoint approach would require more work upstream of the ISO-Regen.

 

Given the substantial improvements I got with the sCLK modded switch and the sCLK modded sMS-200, I am now very curious to see how Roy's similar reclockings in the music player/server - i.e. the tX-USBexp card, and then the mobo clocks themselves - further improve the SQ of the direct path.

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23 minutes ago, austinpop said:

And now on to another experiment. I've been thinking of folks like @lmitche, @ElviaCaprice, @Johnseye, and of course @mozes, and their deep satisfaction with their direct USB setups.

 

I know I've tried to enumerate the reasons I've gone down the path of the distributed endpoint architecture, and they continue to be good and perfectly rational, as are the reasons for the direct approach. But it had piqued my curiosity. I really should listen to the direct USB path for myself. So tonight I tried another experiment.

 

I set up a music player with the best resources I have at hand:

  1. Macbook Pro laptop running MacOS Sierra
  2. Installed Audirvana+ - been meaning to try this out to check out the MQA decoding
  3. I moved some test music on to the local SSD - I normally have Roon serve music from the NAS
  4. Found the best 2m USB cable in the house - fairly generic one that came with an older Benchmark DAC
  5. Ran the MBP on battery alone, disconnected from the mains
  6. Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter 

I then listened to the following chain:

  • MBP (battery powered) > ISO-R (LPS-1) > tX-USBultra (LPS-1)

and compared it to my reference chain:

  • bridged W10 Roon Core server > modded Z-switch > modded sMS-200 > ISO-R > tX-USBultra

To be honest, I really was not sure what I would hear. First of all, the MBP setup sounded amazing relative to what I've even heard directly from a laptop. But SQ wise, it was was still no match for to my reference chain. And the difference was not small.

 

Now - I would be the first to urge everyone not to read too much into this. The direct chain folks have heavily optimized their music servers, and I have no doubt those improvements matter. What this experiment confirmed for me is that for me to achieve what I already have with my endpoint approach would require more work upstream of the ISO-Regen.

 

Given the substantial improvements I got with the sCLK modded switch and the sCLK modded sMS-200, I am now very curious to see how Roy's similar reclockings in the music player/server - i.e. the tX-USBexp card, and then the mobo clocks themselves - further improve the SQ of the direct path.

Thanks for sharing @austinpop I think your trifecta is very hard to beat. If it sounds better then no need to waste resources on optimization upstream the Iso Regen with no guarantee that It will sound better than an end point.

I have never tried any end point in my system and while I am very content with my usb setup, I am not 100% sure that it sounds better than an ethernet route with an end point like SMS 200 Ultra. It is a choice that we make and I made it, but I keep an eye on what's going on as well. 

To me USB is preferred for simplicity as I hate network related issues.

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@austinpop what do you think the modded Z-switch brings into the chain? I've read your findings that it clearly sounds better with it than without it and that the gains in your set-up are substantial, but what is your hypothesis as to why it increases SQ? yet another reclocking in the chain, is that it?

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$999 OCXO Audio Grade Router with questionable (at best?) customer service

 

http://ppaproduct.blogspot.com/2015/07/audio-grade-switcher.html

 

Suddenly picking our own router and sending it over to SoTM for an upgrade would be a bargain

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?page=29#comment-633020

Quote

Paul Pang sells an even better OCXO version with 10x better stability than his TCXO switch and so my attention was drawn there. About this time, I had taken delivery of an "UP-OCC grade" SATA cable for my music SSD that was hand made for me by Chan King Girand Michel, owner of Pachanko Cables based in France and he told me how his new SOtM sCLK-EX "super clock" made his Paul Pang V4 USB card with OCXO clock like a "child's toy."

 

There's also another 10 MHz master clock for $799 but I would stay away from that for obvious reasons

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/22437-paul-pang-audio-v3-usb-card/?page=3#comment-677769

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/26670-paul-pang-musicserverpc-my-experiences/

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3 hours ago, pam1975 said:

@austinpop what do you think the modded Z-switch brings into the chain? I've read your findings that it clearly sounds better with it than without it and that the gains in your set-up are substantial, but what is your hypothesis as to why it increases SQ? yet another reclocking in the chain, is that it?

Had this same query. As far as the modification of the switch goes, SOTM/PPA & the likes, (PROBABLY) replaced all electrolytic capacitors with extremely low esr polymer capacitors & Also added (good quality) mkp capacitors.

 

It would be interesting to see someone who owns a modded switch pop up its lid and take some pics. 

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3 minutes ago, Narcissus said:

Had this same query. As far as the modification of the switch goes, SOTM/PPA & the likes, (PROBABLY) replaced all electrolytic capacitors with extremely low esr polymer capacitors & Also added (good quality) mkp capacitors.

 

It would be interesting to see someone who owns a modded switch pop up its lid and take some pics. 

 

Yes, these are options you can pay SOTM for, but they are not obligatory. I received a separate quote for the capacitors.

 

I just didn't get it, can the switch work without the master clock in the Tx board or not?

 

 

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6 hours ago, austinpop said:

And now on to another experiment. I've been thinking of folks like @lmitche, @ElviaCaprice, @Johnseye, and of course @mozes, and their deep satisfaction with their direct USB setups.

 

I know I've tried to enumerate the reasons I've gone down the path of the distributed endpoint architecture, and they continue to be good and perfectly rational, as are the reasons for the direct approach. But it had piqued my curiosity. I really should listen to the direct USB path for myself. So tonight I tried another experiment.

 

I set up a music player with the best resources I have at hand:

  1. Macbook Pro laptop running MacOS Sierra
  2. Installed Audirvana+ - been meaning to try this out to check out the MQA decoding
  3. I moved some test music on to the local SSD - I normally have Roon serve music from the NAS
  4. Found the best 2m USB cable in the house - fairly generic one that came with an older Benchmark DAC
  5. Ran the MBP on battery alone, disconnected from the mains
  6. Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter 

I then listened to the following chain:

  • MBP (battery powered) > ISO-R (LPS-1) > tX-USBultra (LPS-1)

and compared it to my reference chain:

  • bridged W10 Roon Core server > modded Z-switch > modded sMS-200 > ISO-R > tX-USBultra

To be honest, I really was not sure what I would hear. First of all, the MBP setup sounded amazing relative to what I've even heard directly from a laptop. But SQ wise, it was was still no match for to my reference chain. And the difference was not small.

 

Now - I would be the first to urge everyone not to read too much into this. The direct chain folks have heavily optimized their music servers, and I have no doubt those improvements matter. What this experiment confirmed for me is that for me to achieve what I already have with my endpoint approach would require more work upstream of the ISO-Regen.

 

Given the substantial improvements I got with the sCLK modded switch and the sCLK modded sMS-200, I am now very curious to see how Roy's similar reclockings in the music player/server - i.e. the tX-USBexp card, and then the mobo clocks themselves - further improve the SQ of the direct path.

Rajiv,

 

In what mode do you run the sms-200, is it as a Roon endpoint, DLNA renderer or NAA? Are you doing any upsampling in Roon? Where is the music stored and how is that storage connected to the W10 server? What is the configuration of your server MB, CPU, ram, etc...?

 

Simple upgrades to your server could create another set of SQ enhancements.  Also, I'd rather see you test the "direct connect" alternative from this server vs. a MBP.  We just don't know enough about MBP sound, at least I don't.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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1 hour ago, AmusedToD said:

 

Yes, these are options you can pay SOTM for, but they are not obligatory. I received a separate quote for the capacitors.

 

I just didn't get it, can the switch work without the master clock in the Tx board or not?

 

 

Could you please share on what quotes you received from SOTM for the switch mod (PM would be fine)?

 

I'm very curious to know exactly what parts are swapped or additionally added.

 

@austinpop would be the right man to address your query "if the switch would work without the MC...." (I think he's already mentioned it someplace in this thread)

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