A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Bamber]

3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Well played, sir, well played! How did you get SOtM to agree to this?

 

I asked if they had plans for a new DDC in the near future which would include an IIS-LVDS connection and support DSD to at least 256.  My main point to them was I need a solution which will let me use a master clock on all devices in the chain.

 

They agreed to the DAC first and then agreed to the Singxer in the next email exchange.

 

I'm happy they included the Singxer even though it isn't needed in my current setup it will be a factor in planned upgrades.  It will be interesting to test further combinations in the SoTM chain.

[Bamber]

1 minute ago, BigAlMc said:

Nice work! +1 on can't wait to get your impressions on the modded SU-1. 

 

Do you have or are you getting an SMS-200 or SMS-200ultra as part of this bold venture? 

I'm not sure how long this takes but hopefully I will be able to give you some feedback in 2 or 3 weeks.

 

I have a SMS-200ultra and am getting that fitted with the switch upgrade and a 75Ω Master Clock connection also.

[AmusedToD]

14 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Well played, sir, well played! How did you get SOtM to agree to this?

 

I'll be following this experiment with great interest. 

 

Wow, I asked the same a month ago and they refused. Perhaps they have changed their mind about it.

 

How much did they quote for the SU-1?

[rickca]

6 minutes ago, Bamber said:

SoTM have agreed to fit sCLK-EXs to my Wyred 4 DAC2v2 SE

Your DAC already has a femto clock in it.  How can you be sure the SOtM clock is going to be better, or that the design of the DAC-2V2 SE will work well with it?  

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, Bamber said:

 

I asked if they had plans for a new DDC in the near future which would include an IIS-LVDS connection and support DSD to at least 256.  My main point to them was I need a solution which will let me use a master clock on all devices in the chain.

 

They agreed to the DAC first and then agreed to the Singxer in the next email exchange.

 

I'm happy they included the Singxer even though it isn't needed in my current setup it will be a factor in planned upgrades.  It will be interesting to test further combinations in the SoTM chain.

 

Assuming you'll get sCLK-EX boards in each of the Singxer and the W4S DAC? Or share somehow?

 

While you're at it, I strongly recommend adding the switch upstream of the sMS-200ultra. I cannot overemphasize the huge bang-for-buck. Does your sMS-200ultra already have the 2 free clock taps exposed as SMB outputs on the back? If not, you will have to send it back to them to add, but well, well worth it.

[BigAlMc]

1 minute ago, Bamber said:

I'm not sure how long this takes but hopefully I will be able to give you some feedback in 2 or 3 weeks.

 

I have a SMS-200ultra and am getting that fitted with the switch upgrade and a 75Ω Master Clock connection also.

 

Going "all in" Bamber. Kudos mate! 

[Bamber]

7 minutes ago, rickca said:

 How can you be sure the SOtM clock is going to be better,

I can't know for certain but we won't know until someone tries.  I'm happy to do this with a £3500 DAC but wouldn't dare do it with a Chord Dave or the likes   I also want to use the Master Clock with all devices.

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, Bamber said:

I'm not sure how long this takes but hopefully I will be able to give you some feedback in 2 or 3 weeks.

 

I have a SMS-200ultra and am getting that fitted with the switch upgrade and a 75Ω Master Clock connection also.

 

Hah, looks like you thought of this already!

 

So your chain will look like this?

 

Switch (sCLK mod) > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra >SU-1 Ultra > W4S DAC Ultra

 

Mutec Ref 10 reference clock -----> sMS-200ultra

|---------------------------------------> tX-USBultra

|---------------------------------------> SU-1 Ultra

|---------------------------------------> W4S DAC Ultra

 

Way to go all in!

[Bamber]

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

Assuming you'll get sCLK-EX boards in each of the Singxer and the W4S DAC? Or share somehow?

 

While you're at it, I strongly recommend adding the switch upstream of the sMS-200ultra. I cannot overemphasize the huge bang-for-buck. Does your sMS-200ultra already have the 2 free clock taps exposed as SMB outputs on the back? If not, you will have to send it back to them to add, but well, well worth it.

I'm getting sCLK-EX boards in each so I can maintain flexibility.

 

i will be sending the sMS-200ultra to get the switch mod at the same time and also have a Master clock connector fitted.  I purchased the sMS-200ultra from a different dealer to where I purchased the tX-USBultra and the first dealer didn't have this option listed at the time of ordering.

[Bamber]

3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Way to go all in!

I had planned to upgrade my home cinema projector but changed my mind because I'm so impressed with the SoTM ultra devices.

[Bamber]

18 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

Wow, I asked the same a month ago and they refused. Perhaps they have changed their mind about it.

They said no to me before too.

[Bamber]

12 minutes ago, austinpop said:

So your chain will look like this?

 

Switch (sCLK mod) > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra >SU-1 Ultra > W4S DAC Ultra

Depending on how testing goes the Singxer may be included in this chain or used in my second system.

[TopQuark]

25 minutes ago, Bamber said:

I'm getting sCLK-EX boards in each so I can maintain flexibility.

 

That explains why SOtM agreed to mod your SU-1 and W4S.  It not merely tapping from the tX or the sMS.  That will end up with a lot of unused clocks to spare.

 

[rickca]

18 minutes ago, Bamber said:

Depending on how testing goes the Singxer may be included in this chain or used in my second system.

So you don't currently use SU-1 I2S into your DAC-2V2 SE?  This is the combination that had an incompatibility issue.  In any case, if you were to use I2S, it wouldn't make sense to upgrade the clock in the DAC-2V2 SE if I understand this correctly.  None of this is meant as criticism, I'm just trying to follow all this stuff with my jaw on the floor.

[Bamber]

6 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

That will end up with a lot of unused clocks to spare.

The tX-USBultra will have 3.

 

The other devices will only have a max of 1 spare each.  I haven't listed all the options I have requested until everything is agreed with SoTM.

[Bamber]

14 minutes ago, rickca said:

So you don't currently use SU-1 I2S into your DAC-2V2 SE?  This is the combination that had an incompatibility issue.  In any case, if you were to use I2S, it wouldn't make sense to upgrade the clock in the DAC-2V2 SE if I understand this correctly.  None of this is meant as criticism, I'm just trying to follow all this stuff with my jaw on the floor.

I'm purchasing the SU-1 directly from Singxer (Leter) with the W4S firmware and capacitor already fitted.

 

The way I understand it is that the SU-1 clock will be used for I2S to the W4S DAC.  The W4S DAC clock would be used for USB, AES, Toslink and SPDIF.  In any event the SU-1 will only be used for testing in this chain unless the I2S connection is an improvement on the USB connection.

[rickca]

6 minutes ago, Bamber said:

I'm purchasing the SU-1 directly from Singxer (Leter) with the W4S firmware and capacitor already fitted.

 

The way I understand it is that the SU-1 clock will be used for I2S to the W4S DAC.  The W4S DAC clock would be used for USB, AES, Toslink and SPDIF.  In any event the SU-1 will only be used for testing in this chain unless the I2S connection is an improvement on the USB connection.

OK thanks for the explanation.  You will have a lot of configuration flexibility.

[Bamber]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

OK thanks for the explanation.  You will have a lot of configuration flexibility.

SoTM think there are at least 3 clocks in the W4S DAC2v2 SE and there could be more.  They won't know until it arrives with them, hopefully they won't find more than 4. 

[kennyb123]

Just wondering - with all these improvements advanced by Romaz and others in this thread - have any of you noticed a change in the importance of the USB cable?  Has direct mode and use of better clocks lessened or increased the importance of proper USB cable selection?

 

I've been looking forward to UpTone allowing the purchase of individual USPCBs.  I'm eager to hear what happens when I can eliminate my USB cable.  I intend to try microRendu > USPCB > ISO REGEN > USPCB > Hugo TT.  My USB cable is the Audience Au24, which I preferred to a few other well regarded cables at and above its price.  It'll be interesting to hear what happens when I substitute the USPCB for the Au24.

 

The full SOtM stack requires adding another USB cable.  So far I think I've seen only one report, from Roy (I think), where I believe he mentioned that the USB cable entering his DAC mattered more than the other.  His DAVE is said to be relatively insensitive to USB cables compared to most other DACs, so I'm wondering what others have discovered.

[Bamber]

 

13 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

Just wondering - with all these improvements advanced by Romaz and others in this thread - have any of you noticed a change in the importance of the USB cable?

I'm using the Curious Cables Regen links between my SoTM devices.  I don't have any fancy USB cables, I have 2 Furutech GT2s which didn't sound good compared to the Curious Cables Regen links.

 

That's one plus with the SoTM boxes, the small size make it easy to use very short cable lengths.  I will eventually try the UpTone USPCB after all the positive reviews.

[romaz]

On 1/1/2017 at 11:49 PM, austinpop said:

Note from @austinpop

 

I am NOT the OP of this thread. That would be @romaz. I have just been given authorization by him to create an index of useful stuff for this thread.

 

 

 

I found some time during this 4th of July weekend to check in and catch up.  Not sure I'll be able to respond again for awhile after today.  Once again, lots of great posts.  Very enjoyable to read how so many are pushing the envelope in their own systems.  Thank you for sharing!

 

First of all, a big thank you to @austinpop for his hard work re-organizing this giant thread.  As I see it, Rajiv, this is now your thread, mate.  Feel free to take it where you would like.  I am happy to contribute where I can.

 

Just an update, SOtM is now finished with my mods.  I hope to receive them back from SOtM soon and from there, I expect a considerable break-in period.  I say this because a good friend who is also a reviewer had recently purchased his own tX-USBultra and upon receiving it, he marveled at how harsh and flat it sounded relative to the broken-in review unit SOtM had sent him (which he still has in his possession).  He said the A/B was very obvious.  With more time on his new tX-USBultra, the harshness is diminishing and depth and air are improving.  

 

Of note, my friend opted to upgrade the internal DC cabling on his tX-USBultra from the stock UP-OCC copper to the UP-OCC stranded silver.   This is a $150 upgrade that I opted against when I purchased my dX-USB HD Ultra but went ahead and purchased with my new incoming tX-USBultra.  Anyway, just to show how much impact the clock and the clock's environment makes to SQ, this short and seemingly trivial length of internal DC cabling that powers only the sCLK-EX board, according to my reviewer friend (who's ears I trust), makes a considerable difference as far as further detail clarity.  Another testament to how everything matters, it's just a matter of how far you want to take it.

 

Regarding the rest of my mods requests, I won't get into all of it at this time but what I will say is that I sent SOtM a "To Do" list that contained 20 requests of intricate detail that spanned 6 pages and they just told me they were able to accomplish all 20 requests!  To be honest, I am not one that typically orders straight from the menu (i.e. an audio manufacturer's nightmare) and so this list contained some "wishful" requests that I did not think would be granted because they were pretty out there.  Nevertheless, I have to give credit to both May and Lee.  Despite the language barrier, this is one "can do" organization and I have been extremely impressed.  While no one takes customer service to the extraordinary lengths that Alex Crespi does, these two are not far behind.  Much respect.

 

I noticed Rajiv's comment on how he will be taking a break from investing further into his digital infrastructure and instead will look into putting more effort into the analog portion of his system.  Well, I have been doing the same and I just received a gigantic dose of perspective these past few days.  As some know, I drive a pair of custom made 95dB-efficient Omega Alnico monitors directly from my DAVE (using no separate speaker amplifier) and the resolution and transparency this provides when combined with my High Fidelity Cables speaker cables have been nothing short of breathtaking.   While DAVE's internal op-amp may not have the emotive coloration or bloom that some people desire in their amps, the 2 watts it outputs at 8 ohms are 2 of the cleanest, smoothest, quietest, yet explosively dynamic and detail-laden watts that any set of speakers will ever experience and because the Omega Alnicos have this natural inherent warmth and sultry texture, I have found the pairing to be mesmerizing.  Having attended numerous audio shows in the past year since moving to these speakers (including CES, AXPONA, RMAF, Newport, San Francisco, and most recently, Munich), I have had a chance to listen to many fine speaker setups from the likes of Magico, Focal, B&W, Wilson, Rockport, Boenicke, AudioNote UK, Voxativ, etc. and even in rooms that contained 7-figure setups, very few captivated me like my own system at home.  While my low power system is incapable of presenting Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture or Mahler's 8th in full scale like a pair of $180k Focal Grande Utopia EMs powered by a $200K pair of Naim Statement monoblock amplifiers, I found my system to exceed it in terms of fine detail, texture, delicacy and nuance.  Where many systems only sound their best played loud, my near field setup comes into its own at my preferred and much less fatiguing lower listening levels.  

 

The only speakers I have heard that have consistently piqued my interest have been the Voxativ 9.87s.  They are the creation of Holger Adler from Berlin and each time I have gone into the Voxativ room at these shows, I have often stayed for hours.  Well, I finally got a pair of Voxativs to evaluate in my system at home a few days ago and just as I feared, they blow my beloved Omegas away.  Not even close as far as resolution and transparency are concerned but what really sets them apart is this wonderful tonal richness and density that the Omegas are unable to convey.  I have yet to hear anything, regardless of price, that image as well as these speakers and at nearly 11 ohms of impedance and nearly 100dB efficiency, they are an easier load for my DAVE to drive directly and so the presentation is even more effortless and relaxed.  Right now, because my treasured Clarity Cables Natural USB cable is on loan to my reviewer friend for his USB cable shootout, I have only my unoptimized Mac Pro which is connected to my DAVE via optical cable to listen to as a source and despite this unoptimized digital front end, my system has never  sounded so good.  The difference that these transducers have made is far far greater than any delta I have yet heard from all of the experimentation I have been doing in digital.  

[kennyb123]

24 minutes ago, Bamber said:

 

I'm using the Curious Cables Regen links between my SoTM devices.  I don't have any fancy USB cables, I have 2 Furutech GT2s which didn't sound good compared to the Curious Cables Regen links.

 

The Curious Cables are a heck of a value and embarras many higher priced cables.  

 

I had actually hoped that the Regen link would allow me to sell off the Audience USB when I got the microRendu as I could get by with a shorter cable.  The Audience brought enough of an improvement that I couldn't allow myself to part with it.  A lot has changed since then so I wonder if that would still be the case.

[romaz]

On 6/27/2017 at 9:45 AM, hols said:

I would like to share my experience with the SOtM ts-USB Ultra with 10M reference clock input which has arrived a week ago.

 

Thanks, Hols,  This post was extremely valuable and has given me encouragement that moving forward with the REF10 will pay large dividends.  At this point, I don't know just how good the clock in the sCLK-EX is nor is it that relevant to me anymore since I intend only to use this clock board as a vehicle to implement the REF10.  To be able to bring REF10 level performance to 8 components while only using 2 clock outputs still boggles my mind.

 

Of note, the REF10 has two 50-ohm outputs and six 75-ohm outputs, a seemingly large number of outputs.  Whether you use the 50-ohm or 75-ohm outputs should make no difference to SQ, according to Christian Peters of Mutec, however, there are other factors to consider.  With really short clock cables that are no more than 15-20cm in length, the quality of the clock cable probably doesn't matter as much but even beyond just 20cm, according to Lee of SOtM, it becomes easy to hear SQ deteriorate and it continues to deteriorate the longer the cable gets.  This is where the quality of the cable becomes more and more important.  

 

Of interest, the SMB-terminated clock cables from DigiKey that May guided me to are made of silver-plated alloy of uncertain purity or quality.  For the $20-30 that these cables are selling for, once you get to 50cm of length, for example, I wonder what you are losing?  I say this because the 50cm Habst clock cable that Mutec had on hand in Munich was much more heavily shielded and came with a separate ground lead that occupies its own clock output from the REF10.   What is telling is that Habst's 50cm length clock cable that is made of cryo'd 5N silver runs $800. Shunyata makes clock cables also and their very best Sigma clock cable (50 or 75 ohms) sells for $2k.  Yes, there's big markup here but BOM is definitely going to be more than $30 and so you have to wonder what is being lost with the cheap DigiKey clock cables and so I have purchased a 50cm DigiKey clock cable and will compare against my 50cm Habst clock cable once it arrives.

[Bamber]

16 minutes ago, romaz said:

I expect a considerable break-in period.  I say this because a good friend who is also a reviewer had recently purchased his own tX-USBultra and upon receiving it, he marveled at how harsh and flat it sounded relative to the broken-in review unit SOtM had sent him (which he still has in his possession).  He said the A/B was very obvious.  With more time on his new tX-USBultra, the harshness is diminishing and depth and air are improving.  

I have found the same Romaz, when I first received my SoTM devices I was impressed with the detail but wasn't enjoying the cold harsh sound.  I blamed this on my low end power supplies but after 4 days there was a big change.

 

I also have to confess when I first read your thread I wasn't convinced about your reports that an upgraded switch and super clocks could make a difference worth the considerable cost.  Audio is well down my hobby list but what I've heard so far has encouraged me to invest a little bit more on the Romaz chain   Thank you and others for taking the time to post here,  I'm enjoying the findings in this thread.

 

 

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, romaz said:

The only speakers I have heard that have consistently piqued my interest have been the Voxativ 9.87s.  They are the creation of Holger Adler from Berlin and each time I have gone into the Voxativ room at these shows, I have often stayed for hours.  Well, I finally got a pair of Voxativs to evaluate in my system at home a few days ago and just as I feared, they blow my beloved Omegas away.  Not even close as far as resolution and transparency are concerned but what really sets them apart is this wonderful tonal richness and density that the Omegas are unable to convey.  I have yet to hear anything, regardless of price, that image as well as these speakers and at nearly 11 ohms of impedance and nearly 100dB efficiency, they are an easier load for my DAVE to drive directly and so the presentation is even more effortless and relaxed.  Right now, because my treasured Clarity Cables Natural USB cable is on loan to my reviewer friend for his USB cable shootout, I have only my unoptimized Mac Pro which is connected to my DAVE via optical cable to listen to as a source and despite this unoptimized digital front end, my system has never  sounded so good.  The difference that these transducers have made is far far greater than any delta I have yet heard from all of the experimentation I have been doing in digital.  

 

Awesome, Roy, I'm loving my Omega 8XRS (2Qute drives them with volume to spare).  No subwoofer needed.  Checked out those Voxativ 9.87s online.  Saw they go for 25k to 33k.  Quietly closed the page.  I see they sent Steve Hoffman a set back in 2015, gratis, he loves them.