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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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19 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

I just want to make sure I am not interpreting this differently.  Do you mean the latter (sMS-200ultra powered by HDPlex 12V) provides significantly better SQ improvement?

 

Correct. Over the mR powered by LPS-1.

 

19 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

I understand from another posting that the connectors are different that may account for the difference in SQ.  Were both switches modded by SOtM?  Are you aware of any difference in how SOtM modded the switches, e.g. regulators, caps, etc?

 

At least on my Zyxel, they added the mod for sCLK-EX, replaced 2 regulators and 1 capacitor.

 

I'm not sure about the D-link.

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6 hours ago, rickca said:

I can't seem to reach sotm-usa.com for the past couple of days.

I contacted Kamal via email  ([email protected]).  He was unaware of any problem because his site was getting visitors.  He just discovered a DNS problem that was causing regional issues and I can access the sotm-usa.com website now.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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16 hours ago, rickca said:

Very good point.  This focus on just the clock is like focusing only on which DAC chip is inside a DAC.  Overall design and implementation is just as important as the components, if not more so.  You can give me prime ingredients, but I still can't cook a good meal.

Rick, 

 

Don't forget the benefit a clean power source brings to the mix.  I find it tough to believe that clocks are making most of the differences heard here. Substitution of switched regulators for linear regulators and ultra clean power makes a happy home for a clock regardless of quality.

 

Once power is clean it may be the goose-stepping of components that adds additional value. The teams comparison of the ISO Regen with it's un-synchronized and high quality crystal clock to the SOTM synthesised solution will be interesting in this regard.

 

If goose-stepping matters it will be interesting to find the underlying reason. With the asynchronous, buffered component architecture used in USB audio, goose-stepping should make no difference.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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4 hours ago, lmitche said:

 

If goose-stepping matters it will be interesting to find the underlying reason. With the asynchronous, buffered component architecture used in USB audio, goose-stepping should make no difference.

 

Larry,

 

Could you define what you mean by goose-stepping? Must be an industry term. :)

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3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Larry,

 

Could you define what you mean by goose-stepping? Must be an industry term. :)

I think Larry is talking about the synchronization of the sCLK-EX clocks due to sharing an internal reference clock.  

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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54 minutes ago, rickca said:

I think Larry is talking about the synchronization of the sCLK-EX clocks due to sharing an internal reference clock.  

 

In that case, wouldn't our experiment 6, shown below be relevant? We wondered if there was a benefit to the presumed synchronization afforded by a single sCLK-EX board to all components in the chain, vs. having separate clock boards.

 

On 6/28/2017 at 1:30 AM, austinpop said:

6. Does using the same sCLK-EX board sound better/worse than separate boards?

  • Compare sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra with sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra
  • We could not hear any significant difference.

 

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1 hour ago, rickca said:

I think Larry is talking about the synchronization of the sCLK-EX clocks due to sharing an internal reference clock.  

 

I am puzzled as to how of if that actually matters.  If the clock frequencies are different, then how is there any "synchronization"?

 

(Too bad John can't jump in and clarify for us.  Today is his big house move-in day, and I am sure he will going day and night for a few to get settled before coming back online here.)

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5 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

I am puzzled as to how of if that actually matters.  If the clock frequencies are different, then how is there any "synchronization"?

 

(Too bad John can't jump in and clarify for us.  Today is his big house move-in day, and I am sure he will going day and night for a few to get settled before coming back online here.)

Answer, there isn't.  Read Austinpop's reply above.

I'm thinking the separation of the clocking from the main component board is somehow adding isolation to the clocking which benefits it's accuracy. 

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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3 hours ago, lmitche said:

Rick, 

 

Don't forget the benefit a clean power source brings to the mix.  I find it tough to believe that clocks are making most of the differences heard here. Substitution of switched regulators for linear regulators and ultra clean power makes a happy home for a clock regardless of quality.

 

Once power is clean it may be the goose-stepping of components that adds additional value. The teams comparison of the ISO Regen with it's un-synchronized and high quality crystal clock to the SOTM synthesised solution will be interesting in this regard.

 

If goose-stepping matters it will be interesting to find the underlying reason. With the asynchronous, buffered component architecture used in USB audio, goose-stepping should make no difference.

 

The clean power source reduces or eliminates noise and distortion from that noise.  The clock will correct any jitter related issues.

 

I was reading a little on distortion and came across this page.  I specifically like his comments on Type F.

 

http://www.parallelhomeaudio.net/TypesAudioDistortion.html

 

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9 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Answer, there isn't.  Read Austinpop's reply above.

I'm thinking the separation of the clocking from the main component board is somehow adding isolation to the clocking which benefits it's accuracy. 

 

Meaning a master clock on only some devices sounds better because there is some kind of isolation taking place?  Changing the frequency has a positive impact or that the clock on a separate pcb has a positive impact?

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1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

I am puzzled as to how of if that actually matters.  If the clock frequencies are different, then how is there any "synchronization"?

 

(Too bad John can't jump in and clarify for us.  Today is his big house move-in day, and I am sure he will going day and night for a few to get settled before coming back online here.)

Alex, John Swenson has already made some comments about this in response to one of my questions.  Here's what he said:

 

Yes they definitely are synchronized, there is one PLL that syncs to the reference clock then four fractional/N dividers, since the dividers all run off the same PLL they definitely are all synchronized, whether this is a good thing is debatable. It is good in the sense that you will not have any low frequency beat frequencies between clock outputs due to outputs wandering relative to each other, but noise from each output will tend to directly add since they are all in the same point in the phase noise from the PLL. Independent sources do not directly add since they are not at the same point in the phase noise. I don't really want to go into more detail on this, it is a 20 page dissertation and I really don't have the time now to do that.  

 

Neither of these things is probably that important.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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2 hours ago, austinpop said:

In that case, wouldn't our experiment 6, shown below be relevant? We wondered if there was a benefit to the presumed synchronization afforded by a single sCLK-EX board to all components in the chain, vs. having separate clock boards.

In the two cases you are comparing, could you please clarify which component is hosting the sCLK-EX board?  What did you conclude from experiment 6?

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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7 minutes ago, rickca said:

In the two cases you are comparing, could you please clarify which component is hosting the sCLK-EX board?  What did you conclude from experiment 6?

 

Sure. 

  • sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra:                each component has their own independent sCLK-EX board
  • modded sMS-200 > tX-USBultra:        the sCLK-EX board is on the tX, and uses two clock cables to supply the clock signals to the sMS-200.

Make sense?

 

We didn't hear any discernible difference between these configurations on Eric's system.

 

At some point, I hope to recreate this experiment on my headphone based system.

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Just now, austinpop said:

Make sense?

Yes I understand now.  So one might conclude that the synchronization thing doesn't really matter?

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

Meaning a master clock on only some devices sounds better because there is some kind of isolation taking place?  Changing the frequency has a positive impact or that the clock on a separate pcb has a positive impact?

 

Forget master clock.  All I'm talking about is the effect dirty power or dirty power in the audio stream can effect a Clock and thus jitter.  What SotM has done is take away the bad effect of the direct audio stream can have on the clock.  You still need clean power for the clocking board.  This is why the SotM ex clock board is having a great effect not just on it's accuracy,low jitter, but galvanic effect of clean power.  Running several EX clocks/components adds to the benefit.  If we could just correct the problem from the server sooner, we probably wouldn't need all these components other than one, if even.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

I am puzzled as to how of if that actually matters.  If the clock frequencies are different, then how is there any "synchronization"?

 

(Too bad John can't jump in and clarify for us.  Today is his big house move-in day, and I am sure he will going day and night for a few to get settled before coming back online here.)

Alex, agreed I don't get it either.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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1 hour ago, rickca said:

Alex, John Swenson has already made some comments about this in response to one of my questions.  Here's what he said:

 

Yes they definitely are synchronized, there is one PLL that syncs to the reference clock then four fractional/N dividers, since the dividers all run off the same PLL they definitely are all synchronized, whether this is a good thing is debatable. It is good in the sense that you will not have any low frequency beat frequencies between clock outputs due to outputs wandering relative to each other, but noise from each output will tend to directly add since they are all in the same point in the phase noise from the PLL. Independent sources do not directly add since they are not at the same point in the phase noise. I don't really want to go into more detail on this, it is a 20 page dissertation and I really don't have the time now to do that.  

 

Neither of these things is probably that important.

Yes, we definitely need John's help here. Maybe noise is created from low frequency beats with two or more USB device clocks being slightly off frequency? That makes sense to me.

 

I hope he doesn't need to write a 20 pager to explain.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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Thank you Paul

my order confirmed by paul in Streacom FC9 chassis :

1 off SR7DRMR3XLFC9         3 output: 12v(10A) 9v(6A) 5v(6A)
1 off DC10FSXL 60cm        
2 off DC6FSXL 60cm        
 

@romaz Thank you , i will back to report the sound of Paul PSU

 

Also i contacted Berkeley Audio Design about using external power supply.

Michael Ritter told me the oem PSU is good enough .

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On ‎28‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 8:37 AM, limniscate said:

Yes. I'm curious about the new JCAT card as well.  I'd also like to hear the Linn Klimax since another member got rid of his SOtM gear for it.

Both ChrisG and Evo1668 went back to Linn Klimax DS.

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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REALLY interesting stuff with over 1,800 posts already

 

http://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1172

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/ca-academy/a-conversation-about-network-audio-aes67-ravenna-and-merging-technologies-r656/?page=2#comment-691193

9 hours ago, rb2013 said:

Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:

 

Anybody else made a direct comparison of AOIP and USB/Ethernet over an extended period of time?  

'Epitome' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (see post on the prior page and page 100) 500 - YES it's that good! :mrgreen: 
'Ultra' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (details to long to list) 370
BURL B2B DAC with DANTE Brooklyn II/ modded w/LPS power 285
REDNET 3/Cerious Graphene/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF)/Antelope OCX (RN wClock) 270
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/Audience au24 se digital cable 250
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF reclocker)/AS Sliver Statement dig cable 240 - Right about here is where I felt my old $30k Analog rig was finally surpassed (VPI Super Scout Master Signature/Dynavector XV1-S/all Nordost Vahalla cabling including the VPI tonearm/Bent Audio Silver Step-Up transformers/Conrad Johnson totl tubed Phono Pre-amp/Siemens CCa early '60s NOS tubes).
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord 220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB 170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord 155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2 145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen 135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious 135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious 130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2 125
PUC2 Lite - USB power 110
Singxer F-1 Stock feed 110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen 109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene 108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version) 100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version) 95
Hydra Z with LPS 92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps) 85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock) 81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps) 76
Gustard U12 stock 72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC) 65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon 65
M2Tech EVO with LPS 60
Audiophileo 2 USB Power 50
M2Tech Hiface 40

 

 

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SoTM have agreed to fit sCLK-EXs to my Wyred 4 Sound DAC2v2 SE and a new Singxer SU-1.

 

Does anyone know if the Mutec REF 10 is available to order in the UK?

 

I sent an email to Affinity Audio who are listed as the UK distributor, but they haven't replied.

 

 

 

SOtM sMS-200ultra (12v, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

SOtM tX-USBultra (12v, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

Singxer SU-1 (7v SOtM sCLK-EX, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

W4S DAC2v2 SE (SOtM sCLK-EX silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

Mutec REF 10, Bryston BP6, Trinnov Altitude 32, 9 x Bryston 7B³s, B&W 800D3s, B&W HTM1 D3, 2 x Arendal Sub 3,

SOtM dCBL-CAT7 (ISO-CAT6 SE), SOtM eABS-200 installed on all components, JCAT NET Card FEMTO, mRendu, dCS Rossini DAC, Chord Hugo 2, Schitt Yggy, Chord Qutest (ordered for home office), UpTone ISO Regen, 5 x UpTone LPS-1s, 4 x PH SR4s, 5 x UpTone LPS-1.2s

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Hi @Bamber

 

Nice work! +1 on can't wait to get your impressions on the modded SU-1. 

 

Do you have or are you getting an SMS-200 or SMS-200ultra as part of this bold venture? 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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