A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[kennyb123]

I have this running now. I relocated my 2008 Mac Pro that was running Roon Server into the listening room, connected the WW Startlight leading to the microRendu to port 1, and a generic Ethernet that leads to my FMC to port 2.

 

Weird thing is that after rebooting my Mac Pro could not be found on the network nor could the Mac Pro find my network. The microRendu could be found though. I ultimately deleted the bridge and created a new one. All good now. This is just a short term solution to asses this method of connection, so I'll just leave well enough alone.

 

Now for the listening...

 

 

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[kennyb123]

I'm looking forward to your impressions, Kenny. It seems those with an sMS-200 have been unanimous that there is an improvement. I'd like to hear more from microRendu users. I should get my microRendu back in a couple of weeks.

 

A hint: I've been grinning.

 

There has most certainly been an improvement. I'm still working on getting my arms around the depth and breadth of the improvement.

[kennyb123]

I confirmed for a friend that Roon/HQP works just as it used to before making the direct connection. I made this change only to do the verification. I'm back to RAAT as I thought it sounded better with my Hugo TT. I may go back to re-evaluate this in light of the direct connection.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

What I'm hearing from the direct connection to my microRendu has me questioning some former understandings. I've moved a Mac Pro with an SSD, three spinning drives, a video card and even several fans into my listening room and directly connected it to my microRendu (where previously it had been isolated by optical fiber) - and yet a veil has been removed resulting in increased, clarity, presence and drive. The direct connection has opened things up and allowed me to hear more low level detail. It has also eliminated an edge and resulted in a more natural and more organic sound. Digital has never sounded better here - or been more enjoyable.

 

I can't say I hear that the Mac Pro is doing harm and yet I still wonder how much more things would improve with something like the sonicTransporter i5 directly connected instead (assuming that one can be purchased with a pair of Ethernet ports).

 

Roy - thanks gain for sharing your discovery of this.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Yet you can crank the volume up much higher too.....

 

I noticed this too.

 

 

 

 

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[kennyb123]

lEven after doing that, bass lines in the music I'm listening to are really standing out (a good thing) and are much easier to follow. So strange... Anyone else hearing the same thing?

 

Yes. That was most apparent improvement to me after making the switch.

[kennyb123]

I was going by the title of the thread which only mentioned the sMS-200 & the microRendu - haven't considered other devices. Ok just for you, I'll rephrase my question:

Is it now safe to assume that this 'novel way' is only for those those using their device as a Roon Endpoint?

 

It's been confirmed for those two. Change enough variables and the benefit might be lost.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Wait a minute. This is a Roon only thing? Oh fiddle sticks, back to the drawing board for me.

 

There are reports of benefits both by streaming via Roon and via HQPlayer. So why not the other streaming modes too? Has anyone definitely ruled these out?

 

 

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[kennyb123]

 

I was hoping to try this (bridging) out in the context of UPnP/DLNA using MinimServer, but have had no luck getting bridging to work on my Synology NAS. At this point, I'm not willing to spend more time and effort on that.

 

I do, at some point, want to try out the whole Roon and HQPlayer paradigm, and have a W10 desktop I can use for that purpose. I think I will piggyback this bridging experiment when I do that.

 

Why not try running MinimServer on the W10 desktop and configure it in bridged mode? You could either have MinimServer configured to just read from either a folder on your NAS or a folder locally on the W10 desktop containing some music files. Could be a quick and dirty way just to see if there would be value in pursuing this further.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Indeed!

 

This was on my mind, but I forgot to mention it with all the Roon/HQP talk. It may be a while before I get to it, though. My desktop doesn't have a second Eth adapter.

 

There are many reasonably priced USB to Ethernet adapters listed on Amazon.

 

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Like this one?

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M77HMU0

 

That looks like a good choice if your desktop has USB 3.0 ports. Alternatively you could go with the USB 2.0 version, but that one doesn't do gigabit.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

So go figure -- where I once thought fiber optic isolation was a significant improvement over all-copper Ethernet and that any sort of direct connection -- ethernet or USB -- between a noisy computer and an audio device was less than optimum, I have now come full circle back to an all-copper direct connection between computer and streamer.

 

This is where I've landed too. Copper is used on both spans of a bridged connection; from Mac Pro to microRendu, and from Mac Pro to wall jack leading to the rest of my network.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Bringing this back to the topic at hand - I would challenge your assertion that the Aries Mini is a weak link. There are probably others, but at least @Cornan and myself have optimized the snot out of systems around our Minis and it has scaled incredibly well.

 

I am still very curious to see if devices like the mR and the SMS-200 can take me another step further, but for now, I am content. I suspect Uptone, Sonore, and others have impending products that I want to wait for before pulling the trigger on a new purchase.

 

Of course, if anyone wants to lend me an SMS-200 or mR for a couple of weeks in the interest of science, I would love to compare how it does!

 

Simply swapping the full Aries for the microRendu may be one of the more significant steps I've taken in reducing noise and harshness. I didn't really do much to optimize the Aries other than add a REGEN and a Jitterbug, and also isolate it from my network using optical fiber.

 

At one point I allowed a friend to borrow the microRendu so I returned to the Aries. I found that going back to the Aries was a painful experience. So when I see comments above suggesting the Aries Mini is a weak link, generally speaking I'd have to agree.

 

I've seen reports of folks preferring the Aries to the microRendu, but none cite a difference in noise floor, so I've suspected that the noise floor of their systems might not be a low enough to be able to fully appreciate what the microRendu brings to the table.

 

It certain seemed liked there was plenty of room to further optimize the Aries. And of course there have been firmware upgrades reported to improve the sound. Even so, I can't imagine my former unoptimized Aries coming anywhere close to microRendu plus LPS-1 connected directly as Romaz recommends.

 

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Thanks for your perspective.

 

But you may want to look at the equipment in our sigs before implying that our systems aren't resolving enough.

 

I apologize because my words did not come out right. What I meant to say was that with such resolving systems like yours that there's even a better chance the microRendu comes out sounding much better than the unoptimized Aries. Where it didn't seem to prevail relative to the Aries were the systems where noise hadn't been addressed.

 

You have an incredible system that my own experience suggests might be even better served by a microRendu over the Aries Mini. That's all I was trying to say.

 

Also, the comparisons that scan did are very rigorous:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/auralic-aries-and-sonore-microrendu-listening-impressions-29351/

 

Rigorous yes, but I have my doubts about the Benchmark cabling. Cheap cable would be exactly the thing that would mask the benefits the microRendu brings to the table relative to the Aries. If you scroll down in that thread you'll see I previously mentioned that. I could be wrong about that Benchmark cabling though as I haven't heard it.

 

 

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Admittedly, I am more of a wannabe tube guy. I prefer sound a bit on the warm and lush side. The energy and definition the direct connection provides can at times sound a bit harsh to me.

 

I have heard a bit of this as well. I'm not yet sure if it's a case of hearing bad recordings more clearly or whether just more system optimization is needed. I'm tending towards the latter as the directly connected Mac Pro is a far from being optimized from audio.

 

My bias is towards a clearer view of the music, even if that means I might more clearly hear problems in recordings. That's why I'm inclined towards trying to optimize this direct connection.

 

 

 

 

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[kennyb123]

2- It seems that it is not possible to create a bridge between the Ethernet port in the mini and the wifi - is this true or did I not try hard enough? My preference is to connect the microRendu to the standard Ethernet port in the mini and the mini to the network over wifi but this doesn't seem to be possible

 

I am pretty sure it can't be done. Apple has some logic in there that appears to favor wired over wireless. It seems to send and receive only over wired as soon as a wired network is discovered.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

I've exchanged a few emails with Andrew at Small Green Computer (maker of the Sonic Transport) and apparently they are "looking into it" ie, being able to modify existing sTi5 to allow for bridging. Likely accept usb to ethernet adapter. He suggested this would be only possible if you send your device in for the modification. This was a few weeks ago. I haven't heard anything since. In the meantime, I've decommissioned my sTi5 and reintroduced my mac mini into my listening room for bridging duties... and it sounds fabulous. Now considering putting the sTi5 up for sale.

 

I received the same reply from Andrew as I was hoping to buy a sTi5 that would support two Ethernet ports in a bridged configuration. I hasn't considered the current base of sTi5 customers and what impact it might be on Andrew if they learned he was configuring USB-to-Ethernet adapters for those now buying sTi5s. I would think he'd want to add the ability for users to configure the bridge for themselves using the UI. So maybe that's something he's also looking into.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Could you use a USB-Ethernet adapter on the Sonic Transporter to add a USB port?

 

There's no way for an end user to create an Ethernet bridge themselves on that device.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

This inexpensive Zyxel 100Mbit switch that Paul Pang went with (value of about $20) can be powered by any 5V/1A PSU (but consumes much less than 1A) and has a 48k buffer and so like all switches, it will accept an ethernet signal, reclock it and output a newly generated signal to the component that it feeds. It is the exact same concept as a USB Regen. With this switch that I bought used from another CA member, Paul Pang replaced the stock clock with a TXCO clock, which has lower phase noise and better clock stability than the stock clock and so while the sMS-200 and mR both have 2 high-quality clocks already built-in to provide reclocking, it would appear that feeding either unit a freshly reclocked signal benefits both of them further.

 

Just last night I inserted a Paul Pang modified Zyxel switch between my Mac Pro and microRendu. I wasn't hearing the level of improvement you reported hearing, so I wondered if my switch included the TXCO clock. The gigabit switches he currently sells do appear to have this clock.

 

I'll have to reach out to see if he'll upgrade the clock in mine.

 

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Also note that users of Paul's clocked switches report a lengthy burn-in time for the clock and so you might want to give it time. Since I bought mine used, this didn't apply to me.

 

I bought mine used, but the seller said he never got around to using it. Thanks for letting me know that it might need some time to burn in.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Also note that users of Paul's clocked switches report a lengthy burn-in time for the clock and so you might want to give it time. Since I bought mine used, this didn't apply to me.

 

As I had mentioned a few nights ago, my first round of comparisons with and without my Paul Pang switch between my Mac Pro and microRendu had me shrugging my shoulders. I thought I might have heard some differences but I could not pick a winner.

 

I left the switch in place since reading the above, as my switch, even though purchased second hand, was said to have never been used.

 

Tonight I thought I'd try another round of comparison. A different reaction this time: my jaw dropped when I heard what resulted from removing the switch. It could best be described as a loss of focus, along with a dulling of transient attacks. Wild.

 

So thanks again to Romaz for another great tip.

 

 

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[kennyb123]

On Friday night I finally got to the point where I decided to throw in the towel on the direct connection. While I heard all the positive benefits others have reported here, I also heard a nasty coloration of sorts overlaying the music at times. Music that already had a tendency to sound hard had become somewhat painful to listen to. Not a good thing, obviously.

 

My direct connection computer was a 2008 Mac Pro with 4 internal SATA drives, a TV tuner card, and I think, at least 5 internal fans spinning all the time. Not the ideal machine for audio so I figured it might the culprit. I acquired for myself a new (used) Mac Mini plus an Uptone JS-2. The JS-2 arrived last week and today I received my Mac Mini back from Uptone with MMK kindly installed by Alex.

 

As soon as I got home from work I moved Roon over to the Mac Mini, which is running MacOS off an SD card. I also configured a bridge to create the direct connection. The JS-2 was set to power the Mac Mini from one rail and my Paul Pang switch from the other rail.

 

The supercharged Mac Mini delivered a significant upgrade over what I had been hearing from the Mac Pro. I consider the improvement to probably be on par with what one might get from a DAC upgrade.

 

I played "In the Mystic" from Moondance and I think must have gasped initially as the clarity was such that it sounded like I was in the recording studio. There was what seemed like a complete absence of equipment getting in the way of the music.

 

Clarity and focus - just astonishing. Dynamics - both macro and micro - just insane. Bass - bigger, badder, bolder.

 

That 2008 Mac Pro had clearly been holding back my system's performance. But also it seems that the JS-2 is very well deserving of the many positive things said and written about it.

 

As far as that coloration that had been getting on my nerves - I've been having trouble finding it. I sampled a dozen or so problematic tracks - and while they can still sound hard at times, there isn't that consistent hard sameness overlying itself on everything. What a relief.

 

Clearly the bridged computer can matter *greatly*. Bottom line is this: I consider the purchase of the used Mac Mini plus the MMK and JS-2 to have been worth every penny.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[kennyb123]

Have you tried CAD's OSX optimization?

 

Not yet. The first SD card is configured in what I'm calling the "max install". It's Sierra with actual a few extra processes added for convenience.

 

I also intend to create a "min install" SD card with maybe Yosemite plus the CAD script applied. I'm eager to hear how that will compare to the other card and see if it's worth giving up some conveniences.

 

 

 

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[kennyb123]

which OSX are you using? And how many processes are running at playback?

 

Right now it's Sierra and there's been no attempt to reduce processes. I'll do a count when I get home.

 

A process I added is iStat Server so that I could actually monitor my Mac Mini using iStat for iOS. I captured the screen shot that follows while I was copying over my Roon directory from my Mac Pro. I find having the ability to monitor these stats can be helpful.

 

I'm very curious how much sonic benefit I'll get by eliminating process such as this and others. I'll be creating a Yosemite SD card probably this weekend and applying the CAD script to it.

 

[kennyb123]

what the card allows is the option to run Windows 10 or Windows Server 2012R2 Essentials along with AO using Bootcamp. With the various sound signatures and digital filters that AO provides along with the much slimmer and quieter interface compared against Sierra or Yosemite, you might find the advantages of optimized Windows over Mac OS outweighing the tradeoffs of PCIE SSD vs SD. With my mR, I have found these different signatures and filters to be a God send. Windows Server is free to demo for 6 months and AO comes with a 15 day money back guarantee and so little to lose to try it.

 

I made a promise to myself a while ago that I would never again install Windows on any of my own devices. It sounds like I might have to give this a shot though. Thanks for the information.