A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Do we know anything about what clocks Innuos is using?  I'm starting to wonder whether the external USB device for the SE will ever see the light of day.

Bear in mind that Innuos are releasing the Statement and significantly revamping their entire product line so its not surprising that there’s currently no bandwidth for a USB reclocking device. But the design and engineering must be just about done so its really only a matter of finalising things like casework and PS. I would imagine you’ll see something fairly soon after all the dust settles following the current round of new products. 

[Blackmorec]

Great thread and some very useful feedback Rajiv; many thanks for that. 

 

For clarity purposes, i would like add one comment in order to avoid any misconceptions. 

 

The sound quality improvements of the Statement over the SE may sound very similar in character to the improvements gained by adding a super-high-quality reference clock, and there’s no doubt that the improved clocking of the Statement is a major factor in the improved SQ, but its not the only factor, by a long shot. The improved implementation of the power supply, the increased number of individual internal power rails (8 vs 3), the improved topology, the improved electrical and vibrational isolation and the RFI optimised motherboard all contribute a not insignificant part to the sonic improvements.  I have just upgraded a Sean Jacobs designed and built DC2 with a DC3 PS to an AQVox switch. I was wondering if I’d actually hear a difference (given the large improvement the DC2 made vs. the original wall warty thing) and to paraphrase Rajiv, the differences were clear and obvious....same tonality, transparency, linearity, accuracy.....more of everything else i.e very similar to the benefits Rajiv lists. 

 

Essentially, what this means is that for an SE + full-fat USB reclocking set-up to sound as good as a Statement, the external relocking would need to outperform the Statement’s USB interface implementation by a rather large margin. If it performs the same or slightly better, you end up paying roughly the same money but miss out on all the other improvements generated by the additional Statement features mentioned above.  The only way those benefits will ever be quantified is if someone actually carries out Rajiv’s list of comparisons, but logically speaking, I’m sure you see my point. 

 

 

[Blackmorec]

On 10/8/2018 at 6:49 PM, BigAlMc said:

Hi Steve / @Blackmorec,

 

Yeah good thoughtful post.

 

Its easy to think in terms of the difference between the SE and the Statement as simply that Innuos adopted OCXO clocking. But as you point out that's an over simplification. Innuos have (to their great credit) paid attention to the clocking but have also simply continued their evolution towards sonic nirvana elsewhere in the Statement.

 

That said I'm sure the question will gravitate in many SE owners minds around how big the delta is between the SE & Reference Clocking versus the Statement.

 

Personally speaking unless convinced somehow that the difference was really compelling the cost/effort of selling the spaghetti-clock-marinara to fund a Statement is a dealbreaker for me at least.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Hi Alan, Thanks for the nice comment.

 

For sure the Statement is going to provide a very worthwhile step up, but if you are too heavily invested in an SE + reclocking, there are other ways to enhance its performance significantly without spending tons of money, basically by using the same approach to other parts of your system that Innuos has used on the Statement.

Couple of examples...if you use an ISP supplied router and wi-fi, chances are very high that its limiting your system. Add a decent high tech 3 band router with a high quality 2 rail LPS for modem and router and you’ll immediately gain a significant step up in sound quality. Place a decent cable between modem and router for another jump in SQ.  Place the router on the base module of the little Atacama mini rack and smile at the improvement that brings. Similarly, on the streaming side you could add a high quality switch like the AQVox or if you already have one, adding a high quality LPS in place of the standard SMPS uplifts the sonics considerably without any downside. Put that LPS on an Atacama mini base if you want another smile. Finally add a dedicated chassis earth to the AQVox if you don’t already have one. Oh, and if not already done, an upgrade to the SE’s power cable is also very beneficial....only run it in on something that draws some decent current otherwise it takes weeks to sound like it should. 

By the time you’ve finished sound quality will be very close or equivalent for a not huge investment. The SE is a great piece of kit, but there are areas that can be improved; hence the Statement. However the SE responds extremely well to upstream upgrades, giving you the potential to apply better power suppliers, network devices and vibration control to achieve significant performance improvements. 

[Blackmorec]

On 12/8/2018 at 3:50 PM, austinpop said:

 

This was a quick test we ran, when I came to drop off Eric's SR-7. I brought my new i7 NUC with me so we could have a quick listen.

 

If you read my NUC impressions, I've made the point repeatedly that the NUC over the SE was a subtle improvement, which I heard in my system, only with my Dell running AL as the server, and a TLS OCXO switch in the path.

 

In Eric's system, we didn't have a reclocked switch in the path, and we ran the NUC from the bridged port of the SE running Roon Core with the 1.4.0 firmware.

 

In this configuration, the difference was indeed small. However, the key finding, that Eric agreed with, was that we were achieving essentially similar level of SQ on his system with a NUC costing 10% of his SE.

 

Finally, don't discount the benefit of the Tranquility Base. Whatever that thing does, it makes a positive impact on SQ. We've done an experiment in the past where we stacked up all his spaghetti in a neat wertical sandwich, and moved it on and off the Base. Damned if it didn't sound better.

I have a brand new Tranquility Base UEF 230V that I bought earlier in the year and eventually didn’t use. Includes 2 sets of MiG isolation footers. I bought it to use under spaghetti that I eventually ended up not buying

If anyone’s interested I’ll list it in the For Sale section

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

7CJYH and i7DNBE as an NAA Endpoint Comparison

 

I want to a share a comparison between 7CJYH(7C) and the i7DNBE(7D) as endpoints running NAA fed by HQP.  In short the 7D sounds better.  Without comparison, 7C is already very good, so good that I can live with it for a very long time.  The following are the details.

 

Physical Setup:

Both of the audio PCs (NAA endpoints) 7C and 7D were running AL headless V6 using the same USB Disk. 

Both the PCs using exactly 4GB RAM with Kingston RAM with the same model number.

Same USB cable and LAN cable were used.

Control PC (server) running HQP, LXQt v3.02 sent files to the NAA.

 

Power:

7CJYH powered by LPS-1.2

 i7DNBE powered by the SMPS come with 7CJYH, yes an inferior PS

 

How I test:

The LAN cable and the USB cable connected to the 7CJYH were unplugged and then plugged into the i7DNBE and vice/versa for A/B.  The time it took including the sw reset in the Control PC took less than 2 minutes.  This was important because my audio memory is short and nobody would help me for a blind test.  Two sets of A/B were performed, 1st to get an initial impression/verdict and the 2nd to confirm/falsify the impression/verdict.  Two tracks, one live vocal and the other and Tv track, that I'm very familiar with were used for the comparison.

 

When I just finish building the 7D, I listened a few tracks through it and found it sounds better.  Hence I start the audition with the following sequence.

 

1. Start with 7C

     Live vocal track played for 1 min (which I found lesser SQ immediately)

     Tv track played for 1 min (sounded great).

2. Switch to 7D ASAP. 

     Tv track played and jotted down my feeling (I felt it sounded even better)   

     Live vocal track played.  Concrete, tangible differences were found immediately ("conclusion" verified).

3. Repeat 1 and 2 and draw/falsify conclusion (if any)

 

SQ wise:

Some "concrete" evidence:

For the Tv track, the sound of i7DNBE was even more crispy.  This was subjective and my honest feeling is reported here.

 

For the live vocal track, the difference was/is undeniable: I could hear the throat movement (sipping of saliva?) of the signer at 0:39 and 0:41 using the 7D effortlessly.  Those movements may be observed through 7C if one pays attention.  Another tongue movement at 0:51-0:52 could be heard through 7D easily whereas barely noticeable through the 7C.  Please note that these observations were/are something that I disliked/dislike very much because that's due to the work of bad sound engineer and I rather these imperfections weren't in the track.  There should be no placebo effect due to expectation bias.

 

To quote an old statement: the better the system, the more the defects (are revealed), very true.  

 

Atmosphere wise:

No words on the Tv track as I don't know the original sound. 

 

The atmosphere of the live vocal track just sounded truer when compare with my feelings of attending concerts.  I've never attend the concert of the live track but I've attended concert held in the same venue.  Hopefully, this give a better reference of the following sentences.  The being there feeling was stronger/realer.  I would term it as it sounds denser (or higher density as I read from other forums), not sure if that's what others mean the 7C sounds thinner comparatively.  I find using audio vocabulary very difficult here and hope that the readers may perceive what I mean.  The language barrier upon intangible descriptions is certainly highlighted here.

 

Conclusion:

7C is great.  7D is definitely better.  I was surprised that I could tell the differences given that 7D was with an SMPS.  Whether the difference is large enough for the price difference, only an audition and personal value may tell.  If I can afford, I would go for the i7DNBE for the peace of mind and its low cost in this hobby.

 

Help Please: 7D, not mine, will go in 2 days.  If I may, I would like to hear its SQ using LPS-1.2 before it goes but so far couldn't.  For anyone who's done it before, I'd be very grateful if you may tell me how to do it.  Thank you in advance.

Appreciate your taking the trouble to provide this feedback. One observation:

You mention you just finished building the 7D. My experience is that new components will change several times during their initial burn-in. A very excellent LPS I was running-in exhibited several different characteristics before it finally settled down. At one stage it sounded quite overhyped, which on a short listen sounded more detailed but after 30 minutes or more became fatiguing. 2 days later this characteristic was completely gone.  If your 7D wasn’t run in I would expect it to sound different after a few days (in the case of my LPS, weeks)

[Blackmorec]

11 hours ago, bobfa said:

SQ a Diversion

 

I said I would do some testing this afternoon and report back.  We are going to slow down a bit.  Let me first add a little bit to my situation.

 

I have been investigating two methods to improve the sound quality in my Living Room.  I have been looking at possible room treatments, but that is a long shot as it is a formal shared space.  I have also been "messing around" with DSP room correction software.  Both of these options were becoming daunting, and  I was stalled out.

 

In my office, I have rounded out the system there, and I was not happy with the staging on my desktop speakers.  I had forgotten that near-field monitors worked better on stands.  I was playing with the foam blocks that you place under the speakers, and they helped a lot.  However, I found that many folks were using the pucks from Isocoustics.  I got a set of them for each speaker!   The sound quality is excellent, and the staging is beautiful.  Happy!

 

Now back to the Living Room.  While researching for the office system, I discovered out that Isoacoustics makes stands for floor standing speakers.  After installing the GAIA III Stands on my B&W 804 Nautilus speakers the sound of the system changed dramatically for the better.  (Mostly)  I moved back and forth with spikes, just on the carpet and the GAIA III stands.  I have finalized the system setup with two planks of Delrin under the speakers that the stands, so they have something to grip.  The Delrin bases also allow for location adjustments vs. spikes.  I was starting to get comfortable with the differences.  Then,...  I "discovered" the NUC/AL stuff on the forums.

 

 

Fast forward a week or so and I have my Windows 10 NUC stripped down, running AL in the Living Room system.  I set it all up on the workbench with the Mojo DAC and moved it upstairs two days ago.

 

 

I am amazed at the changes in the sound of my system.  Virtually everything I listen to is better to my ear.  I have one track that does not sound right!  Not all of the changes are for the better; there is some top end glare that was not there a month ago.  The NUC/AL piled on top of the changes in the speaker stands is almost overwhelming.  There are a lot of interactions here that I HAVE to evaluate.  The overall tone of the system is just so different that I do not want to overreact to the changes.  

 

 

Finally, I am about the only person listening to the system right now.  I have a couple of others scheduled to start visiting to help out listening!  

 

There are a few more steps to this process.

 

• More time listening
• Build my final NUL/AL endpoint. (I have started an article on it!)
• Waiting on the UpTone ethernet switch
• Test with the GAIA III stands on their spikes
• Looking at AL on the server
• Much more listening!

RJF

Just make sure you give any new electronics and cable plenty of time to burn-in, otherwise you won’t really know where you stand.  I’m sure most people here are familiar with burn-in but what I’m finding is that as systems improve and become ever more revealing, subtle changes continue to emerge long after the 50-100 hours normally expected as the burn-in period. A very typical burn-in anomaly is slightly overhyped top-end and/or slight emphasis of narrow frequency bands in both treble and bass.  Mundorf capacitors for instance seem to take several hundred hours to reach their absolute optimum but do add greater finesse so are definitely worth the wait. 

I’ve also noticed that consumer electronics reach their optimum far faster than most audiophile grade stuff, but can sound really out of whack for the first few hours.  

[Blackmorec]

Great segueway into something I’ve been wanting to post for a while. Network tuning. 

 

I got into streaming entirely from scratch, admittedly without a deep computing background but with 40 years in high technology and hi-fi selection and tuning.

 

Initially I bought a single Naim Muso qb and used it to learn all about streaming and networking. I also spent hours on the internet with tutorials and webcasts learning as much as possible about setting up LANs and optimising wi-fi services.  In addition I spent a lot of hours reading posts on CA, learning in the process who was worth reading and whose opinions I could trust (thanks guys!). 

 

This all lead to me buying a digitally orientated system which comprised speakers, amplifiers and DAC and an Innuos Zenith MkII SE.  With 30 hours under its belt the system was already sounding magical, hitting standards I’d very rarely heard.  My network at the time comprised a Virgin Superhub3 modem/router, 15m of CAT6 ethernet cable into the SE.  Further reading led me to add an AQVoxSwitch SE with its little wall wart PSU which AQVox claims is unbeatable in this application plus an AQVox Edge Ethernet cable  Performance was magical. I felt very lucky to have such a nice system. 

But being an audiophile I carried on reading and soon had a USB reclocking device plus PS ready to install. The unit had received universally good reviews on CA so I was looking forward to the cherry on top of the cake.  Instead I got a few improvements but overall the magic was gone. 400 hours running in didn’t really see an improvement so I returned it to my dealer, who offered to send me a 2nd unit with different, simpler PS. I gratefully accepted but with very much the same result. As soon as the unit was installed, the magical flow and soundscape of the music was gone.  I decided to test the unit vs. What I consider to be a SOTA USB cable, the Synergistic Reference Atmophere X Ref.  The new cable won hands down, but I still had a few tests to perform. At one point I had the Synergistic Cable in line but left the USB reclocker’s power supply plugged in. Magic gone!

Unplug the little wall wart, magic back.  I have a dedicated mains supply  with highly optimised cable and this was obviously transmitting something from the PS to the rest of my system. 

With that experience, I took a fresh look at the AQVox wall wart. My Zenith SE is powered by a Sean Jacobs designed 3 rail power supply, so I elected to try one of his DC2 power supplies on the AQVox. 

The initial improvement was akin to comparing a suit coming out of a suitcase with one fresh from the dry cleaners.  The whole thing sounded cleaner, crisper, better defined, with more timbre, more focus, more ‘life’.  The unit continued to run in a frankly took about 3 months to reach its best, which comprised all the above plus an even greater sense of naturalness, life, PR&T and of course listener involvement and enjoyment. I was so impressed I traded it in.......for a DC3 with Mundorf caps. This upgrade was certainly the equal of the wallwart to DC2 upgrade,  altghough I would claim it was quite a bit more extensive. It simply made everything better....frequency extremes, blackness, contrasts, image size and focus, air, detail, listener involvement, rhythm and impetus etc. I was stunned by the effect an upgrade of a single power supply to a network switch could have.  If you have an AQVox then be in NO doubt that its performance can be drastically improved by a superior PSU of the DC2, DC3 ilk. 

 

Of course this all got the audiophile brain working. If this improvement could bring so much, what about the rest of the network?. I set about trying a few alternatives to the 15m ethernet cable and found that a wi-fi connection using a TP Link RE650 extender brought a significant improvement in SQ, even when using the same 15m cable to attach it to the AQVox.  Can’t explain why, I’m just reporting what I heard.  Replacing that 15m cable with a Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref brought a further significant improvement.  So now its Superhub over WiFi to RE650, SR ethernet to DC3 powered AQVox and AQVox Edge ethernet to the SE. Brilliant!

 

Of course Audiophile brain doesn’t stop there. It added a TPLink Archer 5400 3 band router so that the hifi now has its own dedicated 5GHz band.  Significant improvement!  Put the router on a small Atacama stand; minor but clearly heard improvement. Put a decent Meicord Ethernet cable between Superhub Modem and TPLink Archer, significant improvement. Threw out the 2 wall warts powering the modem and router and replaced them with a dual rail DC3. Major improvement. 

Now the biggie. Removed the built-in SMPS from the RE650 Extender, made a custom vibration isolated wall mount,  asked Sean Jacobs to wire a DC3 Mundorf directly to the RE650’s board and plugged the DC3 into my dedicated mains (the RE650 had been plugged into house mains). Put both DC3s on a dual level Atacama stand 

Holee smoke. The system is now utterly mesmerising...the room entirely disappears and the musical energy levels are breathtaking. For example,  128Kbps Internet radio (Swiss Radio Classics) is incredibly good to listen to,  highly entertaining and instantly involving. 

In summary, each improvement in power supply, cabling, vibration isolation brought clear improvements that increased emotional response, listener engagement and the thrill of listening to music.  Neglect your network and you can spend as much as you like on the rest of your system, you’ll never achieve optimum results. And the nice thing?  It probably doesn’t cost more to optimise than a really good amplifier or server and it brings far greater rewards vs. a simple box upgrade. 

[Blackmorec]

Appreciate that.  Good questions.  Firstly one of the main things I appreciate about the Zenith is its solid engineering and reliability. Its easy to use and uncomplicated to set up. Suits me perfectly, so no I haven’t tested their prototype software....probably won’t either.  Regarding fuses I’m still getting my head around the price of something designed primarily to break. 😊   I try to imagine myself going back to the dealer and complaining ; “it blew the second time I switched it on”.

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, bobfa said:

I am still working on my network designs and I started playing with an idea last evening.  I have a small TP-Link travel router that I have setup in client mode so it is an end-point on my network.  I then hooked my UltraRend system to the travel router and now that system is on wireless.  I have no sound quality report yet!  I have been thinking of using alternative connection such as wireless or fiber optic connection to see if it changes the sound quality!  I am wondering if it elimates the need for fancy switches,......

That’s not far off what I’m doing with an extender, the TPLink RE650. Can I get nice sound without a switch? Sure. But does a switch enhance SQ? Sure does. And does getting rid of all the router, switch and extender SMPSs bring anything? If you read my above post you know it’s does; big time. 

[Blackmorec]

6 hours ago, User471 said:

 

I live in an old rambling house which brings particular network and audio difficulties

 

I'm lucky enough to have fibre to the property, but it all goes downhill from there!

 

The 'Net enters in one room but all the hifi is in another some way away, so my only options for getting connectivity is either wireless or ethernet-over-mains. The house mains is old anyway and very noisy (I can tell when my wife is using her hair straighteners upstairs because my balanced transformer hums like a hive of angry robo bees!!)

 

I tried wireless first but my Netgear Orbi Mesh System uses 5GHz for all the backend stuff and connects to all the various phones, laptops etc using 5GHz too and I am unable to set up a dedicated wireless band for audio only, and the sound whilst perfectly serviceable is not as good as it might be with the audio sharing all that bandwidth (Paul Hynes LPS on the Orbi satellite helped a bit, but not much)

 

So I ended up with ethernet-over-mains to get into the room, copper to an HP ProCurve with iFi for the TV etc etc, then into a no-name FMC, MM fibre to a 2960 v2, thence copper to my endpoint. Server connects to the ProCurve too, so also upstream of the fibre link

 

Currently least bad option and certainly an improvement over wireless in my environment

 

Depending on the final announced costs I plan to swap the 2960 to the proximal end of the fibre segment and have one of the upcoming Sonore System Optique devices distally

 

Keeps me occupied !!!

 

I tried wired ethernet,  ethernet over mains,  Netgear Orbi, a Google Home Wi-fi mesh and 2 range extenders, a Netgear then a TPLink.

The problem is, I was trying to network 4 classifications of device.....a bunch of fixed in place network connected devices; several mobile comms devices that move around the house;  a high workload fixed streaming devices like a TV with Netflix and a hi-fi system that needs plenty of uninteruppted speed  and relative silence in terms of noise.

 

Having tried everything listed above I found the best solution to be a very fast, relatively high powered 3 channel router, plus a number of extenders. That way I could put my static devices on a 2.4GHz band, which has good coverage and plenty of bandwidth, my mobile devices and hi-demand TV on a 5GHz band which has the speed and my hi-fi on its own dedicated 5GHz band. For the hi-fi I use a modified TPLInk RE650 that receives 5GHZ (2)  and outputs along a short ethernet cable. It’s 2.4GHz band is switched off. You can use extenders on any of the bands and can use individual SSIDs on each extender to keep all your connections orderly. 

Works brilliantly for all the different devices and I seem to get no conflicts or interuptions other than in storms when the line gets flakey. 

 

One further tip. If you do this, come up with a really secure network password and use the same PW with 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,etc for each device and even for access to the online set-up.  You soon remember the PW and its not hard to remember a few numbers. Makes a fairly complex set-up far easier to manage

[Blackmorec]

Firstly a warning.  Opening up electronic modules like the RE650 while plugged in to mains electricity can expose you to lethal currents. Do not open up the unit or perform any modification unless you are familiar with all safety precautions around mains electricity and properly qualified to do so. If you aren’t qualified, as I’m not, then go to some one who is, as i did.😊 

 

 Afraid I don’t have any pictures or description of how Sean attached the cable. Essentially I dropped off a unit with complete SMPS and mains plug pins removed and picked up a sealed unit with captive DC cable and 5V DC3 supply. 

 

[Blackmorec]

6 hours ago, Iving said:

🙂

Very astute!

They are Type A III.

I have maintained them myself. Drive units have been re-foamed and much else besides. In discussion with Peter Qvortrup he said they look "agricultural". True! They don't emit sound - they emit wind. Listening to music is somatic and visceral. I love them.

Many, many years ago a friend of mine in the US owned a pair. I only had a brief listen so I don’t remember how they sounded but i do remember being completely bowled over by the sense of reality they imparted. One of the great designs

[Blackmorec]

20 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

If price is not an issue, I can't deny the huge appeal of a one-box solution like the Statement. It seems to get so many things right - like the bespoke multi-rail, dual-regulated PSU, the upgraded clocks and so on. The main question is how the CPU/mobo compares to the empirically good sounding combo of the NUC/server that Roy, I, and others are playing with. 

 

 

You are now on the hook to report back here with your findings, y'hear?  

 

I want to know how these compare:

• Statement vs. SE
• Statement vs. SE+tX-U
• Statement vs. Statement+tX-U.

I can answer some of those questions. First point, before any comparisons it seems that anything with Mundorf capacitors takes a long time to run in. A well run in Zenith SE on a fully optimised Sean Jacobs DC3 powered network will outperform a new Statement in terms of musical satisfaction. A well run-in Statement on the same network will move things solidly in the direction of  live music.  

 

Adding a tX-USBultra with sPS-500  to my Zenith SE made the unit sound slightly overhyped and I preferred it simply with a straight USB cable. I tried it with the standard wal wart supply and that made things worse. In my experience and my system I would guess that the tX-USBultra would need a really good LPS of the DC3, LPS-1.2 or SR-4 ilk in order to contribute positively, but that is a guess because I didn’t try it.  Generally products like the tX-USBultra are designed to remove shortcomings from the USB stream. IMO, the SE has very few such shortcomings to work on and the Statement none that something like a tX would rectify. 

 

Having said that, if i was a new ZenithSE or Statement owner looking to get the most out of my unit, I’d 100% spend my money on the front end....on providing a kick-ass, utterly solid data stream with SOTA power, vibration isolation and the best cables I can find...only then will you discover how good these Innuos units really are. 

[Blackmorec]

Lot of people reading this with kick-ass streaming systems.  If you like Classical Music, even just a little bit then this is for you. 

Internet Radio. I’m not joking. 

Radio Swiss Classic  SGR-SSR

 

The technology is 320 Kbps and frankly with today’s servers, streamers and DACs that’s not a real issue from a sound quality point of view. It may not be the best but its absolutely good enough to let you thoroughly enjoy the performances without much compromise.

And here’s the but.....It may be only 320kbs but the recordings themselves are absolutely first rate.  Tonally and spacially accurate and well diffentiated, dynamically well integrated, the performances are of really choice pieces and the musicianship first rate.  Don’t be put off by the announcers tonal balance, its different to the music’s and not the same between different presenters. The music is really sweet and beautifully presented and has a consistently high quality (I’ve actually yet to hear a bad recording).  The sense of performance, rhythmic drive and vibrancy come across in spades so not a lot is missing. Piano sounds remarkably realistic and the venue acoustics are almost always present....pretty damned good I’d say and for free its the best value you can ever get.  

 

Sorry for the HUGE off topic.....just listening myself and thought you all deserved a treat 😊

[Blackmorec]

Hi Matt, you’re probably right that its 128kbps. That was what i originally wrote, but i just checked the piece that was playing before posting and it showed 320kbps so i edited the post. I’ll take another look tomorrow but i’m guessing 128 is the right number. 

[Blackmorec]

19 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Thanks,

but on the HP they say maximum is 128 Kbps.

Do you have a link to 320 Kbps?

 

Matt

Hallo Matt,

I checked as promised and it came up as 128kbps. I’m not given to hallucinations so yesterday it was definitely 320kbps so it looks like 128kbps is the minimum but not a constant. 

Anyway,  what I was saying for 320 obviously applies to 128 as that’s what I normally listen to

[Blackmorec]

As far as i know, the very best units using SSDs do so for its speed and access (no spin up time, mechanical noise or vibration) then switch off the SSD and all its processes and play music from RAM.  In other words SSD is a storage medium that’s never running while music is playing

[Blackmorec]

On 6/21/2019 at 1:16 PM, lmitche said:

 

OK, so the hoarder of SR7 rails sends messengers to tell us our NUC machines, that he first recommended, are now inferior as they can't reproduce the "dynamics" that a single 8 core machine can when powered by the unobtainable SR7s.

 

LOL!!!

 

Really? What is the purpose of posting this? None of us can acquire these power supplies. I am usually grateful for Roy's posts but posting by proxy about unobtainable devices feels over the top to me.

 

For the rest of us, when tuned properly the SQ of our NUC/AL machines is fantastic without  any harshness or lack of dynamics.  Indeed AL just keeps getting better with time. Power supplies and added regulation, isolation devices and cabling choices continue to add value.

 

I know dozens of people that are thrilled with the SQ of their Celeron, Pentium and I7 NUC machines.  For them, I says thanks to Roy for introducing us to the NUCs last August.

 

Sadly it appears our favorite audio NUCs are being discontinued, and they are likely to be unobtainable shortly as well.

 

I look forward to hearing the new Ice Lake NUCs. In the meantime with these supply issues this conversation seems rather academic.

Hi Imitche.

I can understand your frustration on reading that according to one opinion leader, the very best available sound is now coming from power hungry 8 core machines, whose ideal power supplies are no longer available. But getting riled at Austinpop for neatly summarising the current situation with 8 core and NUCs is just ‘shooting the messenger’ . 

I’ve read and enjoyed all these ‘novel way to massively improve the Sound Quality....’ posts since day one; or at least since Austinpop took over their administration. But it was always clear that NUCs weren’t designed as audio boxes, rather as consumer electronics that fortuitously did audio rather well. Fortunately the person who discovered this happenstance was gracious enough to write up their discovery and share it via this Forum. Further, no one really understood what exactly made these NUCs sound so good, which was rather ominous for the future, given the rate at which computer hardware is superseded. Essentially with NUCs, audiophiles are at the mercy of pure chance that the audio capabilities of these units are preserved and indeed bettered through future generations. 

In the case of the Innovation Adoption Lifecycle, its very clear that NUCs are used exclusively by Innovators, followed later by Early Adoptors.  As there is absolutely no audio marketing development by their manufacturers, that’s as far as adoption will go. There will never be an early majority, a late majority or a group of laggards, so NUCs will never gain a true foothold in the audio market and will only appeal to a few tech-savvy technicians. 

So when the next development is discovered and adopted by a few technology pioneers, don’t expect them to give much of a fig whether their discoveries are easily adopted or not. The only thing they care about is moving forward. Discovery and progress are the only names of their game. 

[Blackmorec]

13 hours ago, Tommd64 said:

Compared the prices and see whats going on. I ll say without hearing please buy a Farad3, it's also possible to order it with highgrade componends..or better dc cable. Coz he 700p for a Sean Jacobs is a lot of money for a realitively simple PS. Compared to a Farad or SotM.

If you wanted to directly compare an SoTM SPS-500 to one of Sean Jacob’s designed units, the closest in sound quality terms would be the DC-2, which I found to be superior to the SoTM in terms of naturalness, PRAT, soundstage cohesiveness and therefore listener involvement.  The DC-3 is a significant step up from the DC-2 and in the right system, well worth the extra ££. 

How do they sound? Anyone familiar with the Zenith MkII SE  or Statement would immediately recognise the sound of a DC-2 and DC-3.  How to describe that sound? Anyone who frequents small/medium live music hangouts will be familiar with the way you can easily follow each instrument, but how the magic comes from the way the instruments and voices combine to produce a highly engaging, bounce you out of your seat rhythmic whole. Above all else, the SJ power supplies bring the individual clarity and depth,  the rhythmic drive and the musical ‘sense’ that hooks and engages the listener without any need to concentrate.  

[Blackmorec]

3 hours ago, davide256 said:

 

?? This is a long thread but you should probably go back and refresh your memory that the OP originally had Zenith server but abandoned it

for an AL/NUC solution. While a good power supply is essential for resolution, the drive and musical sense you describe come from the hardware/software

platform capabilities

Nothing to do with memory. Experience 😉. I own (ed) a Zenith SE, Statement, DC-2, 3 x DC-3s and had an SoTM SPS-500 on a 6 weeks loan. The OP may have preferred an AL/NUC solution above a Zenith SE like I prefer the Statement but like both the Zenith SE and Statement the AL/NUC still requires a great power supply to sound its best.  How did I reach the conclusion I did?  Both the SE and Statement provide exceptional musical sense and rhythmic drive.....but guess what you get when you use a DC-2 or DC-3 to power the system’s network components?  Yes,  an even greater sense of the depth,  drive, excitement and rhythmic interplay between musicians that makes the SE and Statement so appealing. 

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, oilpaint said:

So, accepting its hard to predict when the SR7 will arrive, I bought a Ghent cable to go from the SR4 to the Endpoint with a 2.5mm connector - no more adapter.

 

Oh my, the sound just went to another level. In hindsight, it makes sense that if the power cable was so loose it would disconnect it would impact the quality of the sound. I now believe the full potential of these NUCs has been unleashed! 

Hi there,

Just wondering which cable you ordered?  I’m looking to upgrade several DC cables and am trying to qualify a couple of good candidates to try. 

[Blackmorec]

7 hours ago, Bricki said:

Listening impressions

 

SMS-200 (latest 4.6 update) vs Celeron NUC7 (audiolinux)

The software for both of these has changed considerably since I last did this comparison, so I thought it was worth a revisit. Both are powered by an sps500 with JSSG360 DC cable and furutech TCS21 ac cable. Ethernet connection to the server is bridged and running in half duplex mode at 10mbps. With a 1 meter Supra cat8 with JSSG360.

The SMS-200

This is the original sms-200 non ultra with no neo upgrade

 

Pros: 

-has a blacker background with more focused images.

-has a slightly more refined or lower noise feel about the presentation

-has a bit more depth to the soundstage

Cons:

-despite the more focused image outlines the image itself somehow seems flatter and digitally smeared. I know this sounds like a contradiction, but it's like a nicely focused caricature vs the NUC that is a slightly out of focus but more natural image of the original recording.

-less dynamic

-has a flatter less colourful tone

-has smaller images

-although it has more depth to the soundstage it feels smaller with less width

 

The NUC

The NUC is in an akasa fanless case running the latest audiolinux headless mini 140 with the 5.2 BFQ kernel in ramroot with isolated cores and acpi CPU scaling driver.

Pros:

-has a much more natural sound

-has larger images and soundstage

-piano, guitar and brass instruments sound much more like the real thing with less digital smearing and a more analogue sound. Live recordings are particularly good with a feeling as if the output from the sound desk is plugged into my amp.

-has a more colourful tone that makes everything seem more alive.

-makes me want to listen to music more and not change tracks but listen to a whole album

-more captivating

-more dynamic

-lyrics are more easily discerned

Cons:

-the background seems slightly more gray and less black

-the images aren't quite as focused in their outlines

-doesn't sound quite as refined in the presentation

Final thoughts

Although the software on both devices has changed for the better, the NUC is still the better sounding of the 2 in my system. It gets deeper into recordings and lets you hear things you didn't even know were there. It makes me wish I had more financial resources to get more powerful hardware 😁👍

Nice summary. I’m not a big fan of the sPS-500 as I think its sonic footprint is not amongst the best or least intrusive. If this were my system I’d tend to sell some of the hardware and look for a superior power supply. When you get to the level your at, things like power supplies have quite a major impact on the overall flavour and character of the sound...differences that are quite fundamental to believability and not just cosmetics. 

[Blackmorec]

15 minutes ago, George Hincapie said:

 

Shoildn't be necessary with EtherRegen. Any well made cable should do the job.

We’re told! Anyway when is that EtherRegen coming? It was promised in 2018 so must be a little more difficult to invent than first thought....I’m guessing it will be good when it finally does get released.  No one can accuse them of rushing it to market.  🤒   Or maybe its soooo good they’re gearing up to produce thousands? Eh lads? 

I must say i’m pretty interested in trying a unit....me and every other audiophile whose posts you read on AS.  I’ve rarely seen such prerelease curiosity/interest for a product. I guess that happens when you claim to fix a lot of strange or intractable problems, of which our network and digital in general have plenty  

[Blackmorec]

Hey Gavin,

 

Really nice post! It sounds like you’re getting a lot of enjoyment and rewards from the hobby, which is what its all about. Regarding your comment about £5-8000 commercial offerings....I get what you’re saying. But this is one of those strange hobbies where you don’t always GET what you pay for. That’s because what you pay for are amplifiers, loudspeakers, media players etc whereas what you really want to get is a highly believable illusion of music being performed.  You can spend practically any amount of money these days, but unless there’s some real skill applied in its application, you may not get anywhere like the result you desire.  So your real success isn’t in emulating £5-8000 commercial products, its in using your skills to get really great sound sound for an affordable budget, which isn’t straightforward...regardless of budget. 

Also, re your comment that source is king. You’re right that without a good source, you’ll never actually get anywhere, but just the same, if a great source is played through poor loudspeakers, you still won’t get too far. The most important message, I think, is that EVERYTHING matters.  You could have one of the finest sounding systems in the World but if one little thing, a bass resonance, a slight hardness or ‘shoutiness’,  keeps pulling you out of the illusion, you still won’t fully enjoy your system.  The 2 most important attributes of your system are:

• its ability to draw you in and INVOLVE you with the music
• Its ability to let you relax and KEEP you involved

Essentially when you are listening to and enjoying music with your entire being, without any intruding thoughts, then your system is truly kicking-ass 😁

 

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, Gavin1977 said:

A fair summary - perhaps what I'm trying to say is that a decent set of £500 speakers with a superb source and preceeding chain can sound WAY better than a pair of £5k speakers fed by a very poor preceeding chain.  Based on what I'm hearing now, I think that even if you're on a limited budget it would be better to have cheaper speakers and a better source/preceeding chain.  This wasn't something I would have suggested even a few months ago prior to me learning the above.

I totally agree 😉