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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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On 2/21/2017 at 9:34 PM, romaz said:

Here are some excerpts I've collected from Paul's e-mails to me over the past months. Hopefully, you'll find them useful as you make your own decisions. I've never personally met Paul (he is based in Scotland and I am in California) but based on numerous e-mail correspondences over the past year, I feel like I've gotten to know Paul pretty well and he has been a wonderful source of education for me. As you'll see from his correspondences, he is very articulate. He is also one of the nicest human beings I have met on my audio journey. I have spoken much of his SR7 on this thread and his power supplies really deserve a dedicated thread of their own but since this thread is about the things that "massively" improve either the microRendu or sMS-200 and since I consider his SR7 as the single most important component that I own that literally massively improves either of these NAAs, I feel it appropriate to to respond to your question comprehensively. Full disclosure -- I have no business relationship with Paul and I am a paying customer like anyone else.

 

Here is his response to me more than a year ago as I was comparing my HD Plex and its LT1083 regulators to Paul's own PR3 regulator design:

 

"The PR3 regulator topology used in the SR7 power supplies is my

proprietary discrete component design optimised for high quality audio

use. All the important audio related performance parameters of the PR3

regulator modules are considerably better than the LT1083

specifications.

 

The PR3 series voltage regulator noise measurements using an HP3561a

spectrum analyser specialized for low frequency measurement down to the

sub 1Hz region

 

The noise floor of 3561A is typically 15nV/sqrt Hz and the PR3 series

regulator was around 44nV/sqrt. When the 3561A noise floor is factored

into the measurement the PR3 series regulator would display lower noise

than 44nV/sqrt.

 

The ALW version of the Walt Jung ultra low noise regulator, which is the

lowest noise of the generally available DIY regulator circuits, was also

tested.

 

Here are the NF at 10Hz to 100 KHz:

PR3 series reg – 44nV/sqrt. Hz

ALW series reg – 70nV/sqrt. Hz

(40 nV/rtHz = 5 uVrms).

Measured from DC to 100 KHz the output impedance remains below 3

milliohms

 

Regulation operating bandwidth is from DC to >300 MHz allowing for device

tolerances.

 

Transient response for a 5A load current change is typically

<100nanoseconds and the settling time is also <100nanoseconds.

 

Transient current delivery for PR3HD modules >30A.

Supply line rejection >80dB DC to 100Khz (>150dB DC with double regulated PSU)

I use Panasonic FC, FM and FR low ESR high ripple current, high

temperature energy storage capacitors for excellent transient current

delivery and long working life. Alternatives can be fitted but it is

very important to ensure adequate power rating of power supply

capacitors in high current linear power supplies like the SR7. The

Panasonic capacitors are very well built and give consistently high

sound quality in capacitor tests on various audio forums."

Many have privately approached me with questions about how best to improve SQ and then stop me once I start talking about power supplies. Their response typically goes like this: "You don't have to convince me of the importance of good power, I already know this because I own an HDPlex." These folks have no idea. No offense to HDPlex but the model I own is nowhere in the same vicinity as the performance of my SR7. I also have a Teradak, Kenneth Lau, Paul Pang, iFi, and various DIY battery supplies that are now collecting dust. The only thing that comes close (that I own) is the LPS-1.

 

As I started to talk to Paul about the importance of the output impedance of a PSU, here was his informative response:

 

"Power supply output impedance is an important parameter, as are transient response, settling time, operating bandwidth and noise. For exceptional power supply design it is important to consider all of these parameters and optimise them to the best of your ability. This is what I do. The ideal power supply would have zero impedance at all frequencies of operation as you cannot develop any voltage into zero impedance no matter how much current passes through it. In the real world all circuits have some level of impedance and any current passing through this impedance will generate a voltage fluctuation, which in reality becomes an additional noise source in the system, which degrades signal integrity. It is therefore important to minimise the impedance to reduce this disturbance to the lowest level. This impedance reduction is usually achieved by an error amplifier using high levels of negative feedback, which introduces all manner of problems with operating bandwidth, transient response and settling time. This is a big subject to consider so I will not go into detail here. Suffice to say I do not use typical circuit topologies in my voltage regulator designs to achieve low impedance over a very wide operating bandwidth."

 

As you've seen above, Paul lists his measurements for these parameters. No one else seems to do this either because they don't have the measuring equipment to do so or they don't believe these parameters are even important. Without measurements, it's hard to even know how to shop for a good PSU and so the end user is forced to do his/her own listening comparisons or else make a purchase based on speculative comments.

Here is his response regarding the importance of using high quality, expensive discrete components. Paul's supplies are not inexpensive but it's not because it's all going into his pocket. Most importantly, IMO, the performance for the dollar is there:

 

"Some industry participants have been minimising the importance of “expensive” discrete component high performance voltage regulators in their marketing and concentrating their marketing stance on other parameters. I have to disagree here as I have conducted extensive testing in these areas over many years. Everything you use to build a power supply will have a sonic signature that will imprint on the achievable sound quality. Using low cost industrial voltage regulators with limited performance will just bottleneck the overall performance that is achievable and no amount of attention to detail in the other areas will override this."

Paul makes 3 lines of PSUs, from the SR3 to the SR7 and here is how he describes them:

 

"The SR3 was originally custom designed for a customer to improve on the performance offered by the Optima Red Top car battery used for the Altman Attraction DAC. As I foresaw additional sales for the SR3 for a wider variety of equipment I wanted it to be small enough and light enough to ship world wide via the Royal Mail small packet rate (under 2Kg) and of reasonable price. The mains transformer was the best of the “off the shelf” transformers available in the UK and the “off the shelf” chassis limited the transformer size to 60VA. The current PHD SR3 is rated at 30W continuous delivery and 240W transient delivery.

 

The SR5 was designed in response to requests for Mac Mini rated power supplies. The power rating had to be 80W continuous and it can also provide 350W transient delivery. This is achieved by increasing the mains transformer rating to 160VA, additional energy storage capacitance for robust power delivery with large dynamic load transients and the design of a custom chassis to house this and the electronics and heat sink required for this power upgrade. I also increased the power ratings of the Schottky Barrier rectification and the output stage device to provide the power rating with comfortable margins for safety and long life. More space within the chassis allowed me to design a mains transformer that would address the shortcomings of “off the shelf” mains transformers. In particular, core saturation is a big issue as the transformer operation stalls when this happens. Other big issues are electrical and mechanical noise. The SR5 and SR7 mains transformers are carefully wound on manually operated winding machines using over sized grain orientated silicon steel cores and high quality wire to minimise these issues. They are designed for low impedance operation and can deliver very large transient currents to the load.

 

The SR7 is essentially a higher power version of the SR5 with increased ratings for all power devices and a larger 250VA mains transformer giving a 125W continuous power rating and a 480W transient power rating for the more power hungry applications.

 

Many customers asked for a “Multirail” power supply to reduce space requirement for multiple power supplies in systems and also to reduce overall cost so I then designed the SR7 Multirail with up to four galvanically isolated supply rails to avoid interaction between the various items of equipment to be powered. The SR5 can also be configured as a Multirail but space limits the number of rails to two.

 

The best way to describe the performance between the three power supply levels is to use the car engine analogy. A small runabout with a 1.2 litre engine, a hot hatchback with a 1.6 litre fuel injected engine, a larger family saloon with a 3 litre fuel injected engine and a sports car with full engine management. Braking systems for these cars will be suitably rated to cope with the engine power. All four cars will get you from A to B but the ride will be progressively more responsive, dynamic and stable as you go up the range of cars. The runabout is the equivalent of a low cost power supply upgrade, the SR3 is the hot hatchback with acceptable all round performance and a lively drive, the SR5 is the 3 litre family saloon with a more stable but responsive drive and the SR7 is the sports car with even better performance.

 

As you go up the range in power supplies this translates into the traits you were hearing at the listening trials. The musical performance in all areas just improves with a more stable three dimensional presentation that is more robust when the going gets busy with the better power supplies."

More recently, he stated it to me this way:

 

"The SR range of high performance power supplies were designed for powering both analogue and digital audio and video equipment. The same proprietary ultra low noise high performance discrete component voltage regulator circuit topology is used in the SR3, SR5 and SR7 power supplies. The SR3 uses a standard 50VA mains transformer, the SR5 uses a custom manufactured 160VA mains transformer and the SR7 uses a custom manufactured 250VA mains transformer. The SR7MR uses a custom manufactured mains transformer with up to 500VA rating depending on the overall rail requirements. The custom manufactured mains transformers use oversized grain orientated silicon steel cores and are wound to avoid core saturation in use and to operate quietly both electrically and mechanically. Schottky Barrier rectifiers are used throughout the range, as they do not generate reverse recovery transients and their associated harmonic distortions.

 

The error amplifier used in the voltage regulator modules has the following specification :-

 

Noise voltage < 0.5 nanovolts root Hz

Operating Bandwidth > 300 Mhz

Supply line rejection > 80 dB DC to 100 KHz

Output impedance < 3 milliohms DC to 100 KHz

Transient response and settling time < 100 nanoseconds

 

As the SR3, SR5 and SR7 all use the same high performance regulator circuit topology they all have a similar sonic signature musically. Moving up the range allows better quality lower impedance mains transformers and up-rated rectification and regulator output stage providing a reduction in power supply output impedance, which in turn reduces interaction with the load. The increased energy storage capacitor bank also reduces rectifier ripple noise and RFI break through from the mains supply. Another benefit of the increased energy storage capacitance is with transient response and settling time. The net effect musically is to provide progressively larger, more stable and more robust soundstage particularly where large dynamic load current swings occur, as well as, a lower noise floor and improved timbre and temporal accuracy.

 

These power supplies are available with fixed voltage output from 1.6v to 30v or variable voltage output with a 10 volt span on voltage setting, within this range, using the precision adjustment potentiometer internally situated on the regulator module.

 

Continuous power output ratings – For fixed output voltage versions the SR3 provides 25W, the SR5 provides 80W and the SR7 provides 125W and the SR7MR chassis can support up to 250W spread across the rails. The SR5 can support one 6A module and the SR7 can support one 10A module. The output voltage and output current can be specified within this power rating using the formulae :-

 

V = W/I

I = W/V

 

Where V is output voltage, W is the available power in Watts and I is the output current in Amps.

 

If you require help with power supply specification I will be pleased to help you.

 

For variable output voltage versions of the power supplies, set at the maximum output voltage of the range, the SR3 provides 25W, the SR5 provides 80W and the SR7 provides 125W. Lower voltage settings than maximum will increase the voltage across the regulator output device, which will increase the heat generated in this device. To maintain safe operating temperatures and long term reliability the current rating should be de-rated by 8% per volt when reducing the output voltage level on variable output voltage versions.

 

The SR5 and SR7 power supplies are available in Multirail versions SR5MR and SR7MR with galvanic isolation between the supply rails to avoid ground return current intermodulation (ground loops) where more than one item of equipment is powered from the same power supply. The SR5MR can support one 6A regulator module and one 3A regulator module or two 3A modules. The SR7MR can support one 10A module and up to three additional 3A modules or two 6A modules and up to two additional 3A modules.

 

XL ultra low impedance (< 1 milliohm) connectors and fine silver internal wiring between capacitor banks, regulator modules and the output connectors, can be fitted to the SR5 and SR7 power supplies.

 

The SR3, SR5 and SR7 single rail supplies are also available in DR versions where two of the high performance voltage regulators are cascaded to a give supply line and rectification interference rejection exceeding 150 dB from DC to 100 KHz. This provides lower overall noise levels than the standard power supplies.

 

Current Prices 200117

 

SR3 £300

SR3DR £500

 

SR5 £600

SR5XL £678

SR5DR £800

SR5DRXL £885

SR5MR2 £800

SR5MR2XL £970

 

SR7 £750

SR7XL £870

SR7DR £950

SR7DRXL £1080

SR7MR2 £950

SR7MR2XL £1190

SR7MR3 £1150

Here is his pricing for his DC leads:

 

Current Prices 200107

 

All prices are for1 metre lengths with a Switchcraft DC plug. Alternative lengths and connectors can be quoted for if required. Cable impedance reduces with higher current rating. XL ultra low impedance (< 1 milliohm) connectors can be fitted to the SR5 and SR7 DC Leads.

 

3A current rating :-

DC3C annealed copper with Teflon insulation £050

DC3FS annealed fine silver with Teflon insulation £085

 

6A current rating :-

DC6C annealed copper with Teflon insulation £075

DC6FS annealed fine silver with Teflon insulation £145

DC6FSXL annealed fine silver with Teflon insulation £186

 

10A current rating :-

DC10C annealed copper with Teflon insulation £100

DC10FS annealed fine silver with Teflon insulation £229

DC10FSXL annealed fine silver with Teflon insulation £270

There is also the option for Paul to make you a double regulated PSU (with cascading regulators) and this can be discussed with Paul for those who want his very best. I cannot yet tell you what this sounds like because I haven't received mine yet. Considering the performance I am getting from his SR7, it is my opinion that this is some of the best money I have ever spent on audio. Without question, quality is the foundation of anything that is good in audio. Paul does not have a presence here on CA and for those who wish to correspond with him, you can do so via e-mail at [email protected].

does paul hynes only do "SR1" now? and no custom builds at all?

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6 hours ago, austinpop said:

Network tuning update

 

A few weeks ago, I wrote my impressions of the SOtM switch. In that review, I again referred to a recurring theme in my setup, where I said:

 

 

and

 

 

Well, I've been scratching my head at this to understand the source of this harshness. Was this an inherent characteristic of the Zenith SE's ethernet interface, or could there be more going on? After auditing my entire network chain, I realized the answer was under my very nose. And it's a bit embarrassing. To understand, here's a picture of my network topology:

 

Network-topologypng.png

 

And for completeness, here's the audio topology:

 

Audio-topology.png

You'll notice that everything up the chain to the cable modem is on an LPS, but what the picture does not show is the AC power source. This is the embarrassing bit. For historical reasons I won't go into, my network closet (top picture) is powered by an APC 350VA UPS. In this latest audit of my system, it finally registered on me (duh!) that this UPS must be generating very noisy AC to the HDPlex LPS. Following @JohnSwenson's advice in the isolation transformer thread, I got myself an unfiltered Tripplite power strip (this one can be folded into convenient shapes).

 

Wow - much improved! I can't believe the crud the UPS was putting into the network gear made it across the entire topology. I've only done an evening's worth of listening, but at this point, the gap between network playback and local playback on the SE has shrunk. Not completely disappeared, but definitely smaller.

 

Encouraged by this, I have a plan to continue cleanup of my network. Referring back to my network topology, here's the plan:

  1. I still have SMPSes in my network closet for things like the NAS, assorted adapters (like my Directv broadband adapter, a broadband alarm adapter, etc). I plan to replace all these SMPSes with an HDPlex 200W LPS. This still does not eliminate SMPSes for the ASUS WAP and a couple more switches. These are in other parts of the house but wire back to the network closet. I will address these with isolation. See next 2 points.
  2. I plan to replace my DGS2205 switch with a JS approved Netgear GS108, powered by an existing HDPlex rail, and shunted with a JSGT.
  3. The Archer router will only have a direct connection from my listening room on one port, and the Netgear GS108 switch on another.
  4. All other equipment: NAS, adapters, other switches, the ASUS, will all connect to the GS108. Hopefully, this will block the bulk of both low-impedance SMPS noise (via the port magnetics) and the high-impedance noise, via the JSGT, from my audio topology. Don't forget, my TLS switch is also ground shunted, but I don't know if the underlying Dlink switch, on which it is modded, has isolating port magnetics.

Once I've done all that, I'll do another round of listening tests, and report back.

quote:

"Many have privately approached me (paul hynes) with questions about how best to improve SQ and then stop me once I start talking about power supplies. Their response typically goes like this: "You don't have to convince me of the importance of good power, I already know this because I own an HDPlex." These folks have no idea. No offense to HDPlex but the model I own is nowhere in the same vicinity as the performance of my SR7. I also have a Teradak, Kenneth Lau, Paul Pang, iFi, and various DIY battery supplies that are now collecting dust."

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=30

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32 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Been there, done that Larry.

 

Back in the Stone Age, when this thread began, I had FMCs fronting my audio gear, but I actually found bridging to sound better. Wireless bridging has its own issues, and had intermittent dropouts at higher resolutions. Since I plan to stream Qobuz, which is streams as high as 24/192, I'm not looking forward to the dropouts.

 

Fair point on the ingress CATV line. I do have a DC blocker on ingress, but not sure if there is an appropriate filter to attenuate noise. Since the cable line is carrying legitimate data at GHz frequencies, not sure what specs to use.

 

But to your point, it sounds like shunting the cable modem, in addition to powering with an LPS may be another safeguard.

 

It is written that there are  'airborn' wireless noise issues when bridging a NAS etc.? i.e. thousands of communication signals and not just inside your property but the signals that come through the wall from other nearby properties!   ....satellites, police, vehicles etc.

 

I'm using this: 'KC'

What is Lightstream?

Lightstream is ultrafast broadband. It connects your home to the internet using fibre optic technology, replacing the copper cables used by standard broadband. We’ve built a network designed for the internet and the way that people use it, so it’s more reliable, faster and future-proof.

 

https://www.kcomhome.com/products/broadband/lightstream/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiav6lc_C3QIVwpPtCh3BoAtoEAAYASABEgIBNvD_BwE

 

I'm getting 215 Mbps.

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41 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

 

It is written that there are  'airborn' wireless noise issues when bridging a NAS etc.? i.e. thousands of communication signals and not just inside your property but the signals that come through the wall from other nearby properties!   ....satellites, police, vehicles etc.

 

I'm using this: 'KC'

What is Lightstream?

Lightstream is ultrafast broadband. It connects your home to the internet using fibre optic technology, replacing the copper cables used by standard broadband. We’ve built a network designed for the internet and the way that people use it, so it’s more reliable, faster and future-proof.

https://www.kcomhome.com/products/broadband/lightstream/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiav6lc_C3QIVwpPtCh3BoAtoEAAYASABEgIBNvD_BwE

 

I'm getting 215 Mbps.

 

"‘Common mode noise’ is ever-increasing thanks to wireless networking in the home, with mobile phones, wi-fi and Bluetooth bathing us in a sea of airborne interference."

http://www.isoteksystems.com/why-isotek/why-do-i-need-a-power-cleaning-system

 

That's why I don't bridge audio. Until someone proves otherwise.

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13 hours ago, sandyk said:

 They are talking about the differences between FTN ( Fibre to the Node, and Fibre FTTP.)

In  Australia at least,  FTTP is connected by Fibre Optic cable all the way, and FTN is normally connected from a " mini  Telephone Exchange"  in the street  via a copper cable pair which may already be present in your house. FTN can be of a decent speed if you are reasonably close to the local Telephone Exchange, but FTTP has the potential for vastly improved speed.

 

mine has Fibre Optic cable all the way to the property, and into an ONT.

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1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Finding the right HDMI cable should be the key for an I2S connection, pretty much the same deal as clock cables because we've gotta get something that's short and sweet

 

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-0-3m-Short-Speed-Cable/dp/B00K3HF276

https://www.amazon.com/Wireowrld-Island-Cable-Meter-Length/dp/B00C6IOQ7W

https://www.amazon.com/WIREWORLD-Chroma-Audio-18Gbps-Cable/dp/B00BUMO350

https://www.amazon.com/WIREWORLD-Ultraviolet-Audio-Video-Cable/dp/B00C6GTI72

https://www.amazon.com/Wireworld-Silver-Starlight-Cable-Meters/dp/B00C6FSQ5I

https://www.amazon.com/Wireworld-Platinum-Starlight-Cable-Meter/dp/B00C6FDG8U

 

Besides, let's hope that Gustard U16 is compatible with the I2S pinout of PS Audio

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/denafrips-terminator-the-king-of-r2r-dac.851085/page-4#post-14199895

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h5PMUBkldkpt1rCnAR4ZHYGZNeCe-vwIFyKWYMZWsX0

 

 

OMG, are you implying that you'd like to support something that's even more unthinkable than sweatshop operations?

 

I guess that 15 bucks could cover (part of) the tariffs, depending on what the percentage is gonna be.

I've got the QED HDMI 2.0 Reference cable.

DSCN2753.thumb.JPG.4f7584c5b8287607bf9f3ff736fe891c.JPG

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4 hours ago, austinpop said:

I've been thinking about it more, and the other possibility is simply that the (very slight) difference I'm hearing between network playback on the SE through the Ethernet interface and local playback from the SSD is just inherent differences in the particular adapters chosen in the SE.

 

So I could just be chasing a phantom problem upstream.

 

Have others with the Zenith SE experimented and tested the SQ between local SSD and network streams? Your experiences, please!  

doesn't the Innuos ZENith SE have switching technology though? (on its mainboard):

1723252815_InnuosZENithSE.thumb.jpg.a708ff7fec85c05f062be018cc71b527.jpg

 

it also has a pico and built in toroidal transformer & optical drive & standard SATA cables! Yet this is supposed to be high end gear? Wonder what else is not so special? Maybe you could put JCAT SATA cable in there? Use external LPSU? Does it have clocks that can be improved or are you using external clock anyway? Is that their own m/board design or is it an off the peg thin-mini ITX?  Have Fun!

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On 4/26/2018 at 9:25 AM, nvitorino said:

 

Hi everyone,

 

I can provide a bit of feedback on this based on our experience with the Supermicro X10SBA-L. On this board there is a significant difference in sound quality when powering both the ATX and the 12V Input compared to 12V alone. If you connect the ATX supply, the board will not use it's own switching regulators to convert to 5V and 3.3V from 12V. The interesting part is that it still uses the 12V rail on both the ATX and the 12V input separately if the 12V input is available. We've tested 3 configurations:

 

1. ATX only (using a Pico-PSU with a clean 12V input)

2. 12V only

3. ATX + 12V

 

1. and 2. sound similar in our tests. 3 sounds significantly better. At first, we were expecting 2. to be the best, as it removed the Pico-PSU from the equation. But seems the board itself will do the same job as the Pico and doesn't seem to do it any better than that.

We've fthen further tested with separate rails using the ATX only and compared to using separate rails for ATX + 12V input. The result is the same, adding both ATX and 12V results is clearly superior sound with this board. If you don't want / can't get separate rails for ATX and 12V, getting at least another 12V supply and connecting a Pico-PSU will still yield benefits compared to feeding the 12V alone. If you are using a separate power supply for the SSD, 1.5A on ATX and 1.5A on 12V is enough for this board.

 

Nuno
 

can someone please show pictures with text to better explain the 3 configurations on the board, together with their PSU's? Thanks!

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56 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Yes, it would be good to confirm whether the MC-3+ USB:

  1. has the same quality (i.e. phase noise) clock for USB as it has for the sample rate clock(s), and
  2. if the USB clock is also disciplined by the reference clock input?

I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is no. The idea of improving "system" clocks (USB, Ethernet, mobo) is really something that gained traction with this thread (courtesy Romaz), although, to be fair, there were vendors dabbling in it - like Paul Pang, SOtM, SGM, among others.

 

After the discussion on the Chinese Gustard DDC that CTU posted, it got me thinking - imagine how great a DDC the Mutec MC-3+ USB would be if:

  1. it had an input for an external PSU, so powered with an SR-4 or SR-7
  2. it had an I2S output
  3. it's USB clock was of the same quality as the sample rate clocks, and could be disciplined by the input reference clock.

Something like that from Mutec would be pretty special.

have you  got any links for improved mobo clocks please? I thought that had been abandoned because it creates too many problems i.e. paul pang?

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7 hours ago, tims said:

Hello @lmitche

 

Sounds like your'e almost there.  How difficult do you suppose it would be for someone with little knowledge on setting up computers/networks (me!?) to implement your approach.  Mucho hand holding required?!!

Best of Luck mate! - I asked similar some time ago and got nothing and ridicule in return! Told to buy a good text book or go on a college/uni. course. Take care.

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On 9/20/2018 at 2:02 PM, lmitche said:

Doc,

 

No one should be discouraged from learning how to do this stuff. In my response above, I certainly don't mean to imply that people can't succeed at doing this configuration themselves. But hand holding will be required. And probably a lot of hand holding.

 

We all started somewhere. Clearly many millions of people have these skills and the barriers to learning are very low. You should know that Piero, the author of Audiolinux hand held me throughout the installation process. This despite the fact that I have been hands on with technology from learning to program in the mid 1960's and learning and working with the Unix team in the 70s at university . . . .and on and on. Most of my career has been spent managing technology development teams. Nevertheless implementation details matter, and it takes hands on experience to learn those details. And those details can get awfully complicated at times.

 

Mostly, it is the unexpected stuff that makes this hard. The NUC bios is pretty awful,. I haven't seen anything this bad since early days of the consumer motherboard business. You can get things to work, but it takes persistence to deal with the inconsistent behavior. This combined with the command line requirements of Audiolinux suggest to me that it is not an easy road for a novice. 

 

You could argue that Google search has a command line interface and everyone seems to learn that, so what do I know.

 

That's my two cents.

 

Good luck.

 

Larry

I  wasn't 'sighting' you in particular, no worries!

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37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

This is a really tough question to answer, if you frame it as an either-or! As I look at my own journey, my AC and clock improvements were kind of interspersed. If I remember right, my system improvements came in this order:

  1. P5 regenerator
  2. sCLK-EX improvements with SOtM trifecta
  3. Cybershaft OP-14 master reference clock
  4. Dedicated 6-gauge AC circuit and outlet
  5. Mutec Ref 10

I found every step to be worthwhile. In hindsight, would I do them in any different order? Hmm, I don't know. For the most part, the AC improvements (dedicated line, regenerator) seemed to affect dynamics and cleanliness the most, whereas the clock improvements are more about spaciousness, resolution, clarity, texture etc. Don't get me wrong - there is overlap, but at a very gross level, this is how I would differentiate.

 

Looking back, I would still do ALL of these things, but to make the cost palatable, it's perfectly OK to spread these out over time.

 

On the AC side, definitely get a dedicated circuit. 10 gauge is fine. This is a no-brainer, on any system. Just do it. Take a look at Paul McGowan's latest video, at around the 6:00 minute mark: 

 

 

When it comes to conditioning, things get interesting. There are so many competing products and opinions, it's hard to know which way to go. There's IT's, like some in CA like. There's regenerators from PS Audio. Then there's conditioners like the Denali/Triton et al. Then there are other power conditioners. I have not tried these all, so cannot say which is the way to go. All I can say is I took the PS Audio regenerator approach, and heard a substantial improvement. But other ways may yield equal or better.

 

The clock stuff is a no-brainer, and you can space it out by getting the tX-USBultra first, and Ref 10 later.

 

even dedicated circuits meet at the main house power supply cable i.e. sharing the same house power cable from outside the home and the interference will travel everywhere up and down those lines backwards and forwards where ever they meet (even if you have a separate fuse box!). I would have thought that an isolating transformer would be as good, maybe better?   e.g. Topaz.

 

1749722657_TheDetailedinternalwiringfortheSampleDBandMCBsandRCDunitsused.thumb.jpg.d1c84509d1e0ced887c032e16f361bd9.jpg

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3 hours ago, mtcs said:

 

That's a good thought and I'll look into it. There seem to be  a lot of options for improving AC.

In this scenario, you could get your electricity company/provider to install a second line to your property with a second electricity meter purely for Hi Fi usage; that way would provide greater isolation, "BUT!" ~ back at the electric companies SUB STATION there will still be a meeting point somewhere! Unless of course, the electric company are willing to build a dedicate electricity generator solely providing you with power i.e. isolated from the rest of the grid! Your own power station, no less!

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6 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Thanks Larry for documenting your journey, we're so glad to have you and Roy here who share your findings with everyone.

 

I've got a question regarding what we could do to optimize the power supplies on the clean side since Roy mentioned this before

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=361&tab=comments#comment-860642

 

Given that output of LT3045 couldn't go any higher than 15V, do you foresee any potential issues if we're combining two of them (i.e. 7V + 12V in series) into 19V with a Y-cable as shown below?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31554-diy-dc-power-cables/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-678934

y9WMd0V.jpg

 

Let's say that's causing no harm whatsoever, now it's just a matter of providing enough current @ 19V

 

https://nucblog.net/2018/04/gemini-lake-nuc-review-nuc7cjyh-linux-htpc-conclusions/

 

Granted running AudioLinux in headless mode with RoonBridge shouldn't draw THAT much current to begin with, though we'll just play it safe by going for 19V × 1.5A = 28.5W like this

 

http://www.ldovr.com/product-p/dxp-1a5dsc.htm

XJHj6nH.png xWq9oZs.png

 

Besides feeding LT3045 with Sigma 11 LPS, what else do you recommend?

 

I'm just wondering if one power bank for 9V plus another for 15V were any good, batteries that are disconnected from an AC outlet should be able to prevent any ground loops from happening

 

https://www.ravpower.com/26800mah-Type-C-external-battery-charger-black.html

https://www.amazon.com/RAVPower-Portable-26800mAh-Recharged-Nintendo/dp/B01LRQDAEI

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1313332-REG/ravpower_65_02058_101_rp_pb058_26800mah_usb_c.html

 

Other than that, do you guys have other suggestions for 19V?

I have been told these battery banks contain switching technology? (to achieve their various voltages)...

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2 hours ago, lmitche said:

In one of the posts above I acknowledged that this NUC exercise is a recreation of a ethernet to usb streamer, a wireless one. And yes it is complicated to setup especially given the immature state of the NUC bios. But that challenge is part of the fun of this, at least for me.

 

I would like to say the sq is better than a microrendu or sms200 and their variants, but I can't. Years ago,  I had early versions of both here, and they were immature products with operational issues that prevented an adequate evaluation. Given this history I have nothing to say about SQ comparisons.

NUC Vs. microrendu or sms200 ? ...comparisons?

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Having seen the um, "older gentleman with limited to no computer skills" demographic here at RMAF:D I can see why the Statement would be very appealing. Those of us who are more on the bleeding edge, and willing to experiment with new findings, are more than willing to endure the spaghetti.

I hope this isn't another DIG at me for no reason what so ever? Ha Ha - very funny. Some of you should get a warning to stop the belittling behaviour! 

read this thread

&  this

I do know a small amount like making 12 or 13 upgrades on my cary 100t DAC & upgrading CAPS etc, improving shielding and isolation & vibration. But as I said many times now I am not a circuit builder or designer from scratch, and I don't wish to be. Also replacing faulty driver units in speaker cabs etc. Safety with AC mains and discharging caps energy. I know it's not electronics, but could even install a separate dedicated power line from MCB for HiFI if I wanted too, including correctly valued cables and fuses and grounding. I can replace broken PCB (like for like). I have built and sold PC's since 1997 with nearly all the MS windows O/S installed since '95' & 3.1. & a bit of linux, but not MAC! ....so I think I am quite 'handy' actually. But because of my learning difficulty I don't understand the physics in electronics. I haven't been rude or offensive in this post to anyone. So I hope that no one will choose to reply sarcastically please? Take Care! Oh! ~ I have had plenty of spaghetti (wiring) in the past in various HiFi and home theatre set-ups, to contend with!

 

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

No idea where you even come into this? I’m confused.

 

I was talking about people I saw at RMAF who were so ossified they thought CD was a new thing that would never catch on! 

 

Nothing to do with you.

 

 

OK. thanks. Are their really people who think CD;s are new?   ...and never catch on!

No offence intended to you personally. just over reacted to rumours on the grape vine - Sorry! Many Apologies!

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I seem to have become the local forum 'punchbag', who has now received 'warnings' for merely replying (in defence) to the boxers accusations, who have hit this punchbag; whilst the boxers themselves appear to have got away with their knockout blows without any warnings! Very strange? I didn't think in 2018 that mocking & belittling people with learning issues would be tolerated as acceptable behaviour by society in general.

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23 minutes ago, Mark62 said:

Thanks for the detailed response.  I have, for the most part, done your part 1.  I have a single PC w/2 ethernet ports, I have used W10 Pro to create the bridge and set the static IP information.  1 of the ports goes to my router and the other goes to my ultrarendu.  The only thing I don't have is 2 DNS servers in the bridge network properties.  When I run "IP Config /all" prior to bridging - there is only one DNS server listed - not alternate.  I'm not sure what I would put if my system does not list one currently...any suggestions?

 

I have not yet but will try playing a file that's on my local HD to further test the bridge itself w/o worrying about the router interaction.

 

If that doesn't work, I'll look further into settings.  I have a feeling that the same thing that solves the stuttering will solve the issue that my PC can no longer see my NAS attached to my router.  There's some sort of network issue that is behind it - just don't know what.

could it be a windows bug that hasn't been resolved? Maybe if you screen shot your "IP Config /all" on to here, that may help someone to see an issue?

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59 minutes ago, agillis said:

Bridging on Windows can be a bit complex to set up. We have the sonicTransporter i7 that has two Ethernet ports and built in bridging. It works very well and requires no special setup. A dedicated Roon server is always a good way to eliminate problems.

 

If you don't want to buy a new Roon server there is a cheaper option, a local switch. This one works really well and costs very little

 

https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Unmanaged-GREENnet-Switching-Protection/dp/B001QUA6R0

 

I know there has been a lot of discussion in the thread about Ethernet switches. There are some other great options out there but nothing is better for the price then this TRENDnet.

 

Attach both your Roon server and your Rendu network player to this switch then run an Ethernet cable from it back to your router. If you don't have networking available in that location use a HomePlug adapter.

 

I recommend this setup to a lot of our customer who are using a sonicTransporter i5 (with only one Ethernet port) and it has resolved a lot of Roon stuttering problems.

 

We also sell a Linear supply that would power that switch if you need an inexpensive upgrade.

 

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/5v-15v-linear-power-supply-15w

 

 

home plugs spread airborne* noise and interference everywhere in your network through your domestic household wiring, not to mention things like fridge/freezers, washers etc! Don;t use home plugs for hifi under any circumstances!!

*when used in conjunction with bridge devices.

 

please remember agillis has a vested interest!

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