A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[elan120]

Good to hear SOtM continue to bring out more clock products, and I wonder if there is any input whether using sCLK-EX to replace the two Crystek CCHD-575 oscillators from Singxer SU-1 can be an upgrade?

[elan120]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

 

Any ideas on how to measure surface temperature accurately?

 

No it's too hot to touch for more than a few seconds.

Depend on how "accurately" you truly need from the reading, but a pocket infrared thermometer will get you pretty good idea about the surface temperature quickly.  I use something similar like the link below for another hobby and the reading is good enough for a ballpark idea.

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FD6Z2S?tag=price125420e-20&ascsubtag=wtbs_5993584a443b4023aa81c6ab

[elan120]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

No issues with ambient temps here, as we couldn't manage without our AC here in Texas!

 

One variable is the current drawn by the DAC attached to the USB output of the tX-USBultra. I just did the touch test with 4 fingers on the LPS-1 and I could barely hold it there 10 seconds.

 

I'm looking at the infrared thermometers on Amazon, and there are a bunch in the $10-20 range, although of questionable accuracy and reliability. Still, it may be worth trying one at that price.

If you can't passed the finger touch, normally it is too hot.

 

The $10-20 range IR thermometer will work just fine to get a good idea on the temperature, I have tried 3 different brands below include the one I got from Harbor Freight by comparing their reading against calibrated thermocouple / meter physically attached to the object, and the result is closed enough to get the idea how hot the surface temperature is - unless you have to know the absolute temperature.

[elan120]

Is tX-USBUltra = tX-USBexp+sCLK-EX?  Or tX-USBUltra still better in term of SQ?

[elan120]

13 minutes ago, Bamber said:

Without having both to test I think they would sound the same.

Thank you, that would be my speculation as well.  I hope to have one of the four outputs from sCLK-EX to a router switch prior to the music server, and then one other output to tX-USBexp from inside of music server to connect directly to the DAC without going through end points like sMS-200ultra.  My bigger question is whether having the sCLK-EX clock output to router switch prior to music server be helpful elevating SQ at all?

[elan120]

1 hour ago, Bamber said:

A few pics of the SOtM modded items which have just arrived back.

 

I can now hear why so many of you mod the Singxer SU-1, the soundstage/imaging is amazing with the REF 10 engaged.

 

 

 

 

 

Outstanding!  By looking at the mod picture, it appear they installed one output to the 22.5792MHz oscillator location, one output to the 24MHz oscillator (USB input) location, and one more output to the external connector.  Since it is not clear from the picture, did they not upgrade the 24.576MHz oscillator or they use the REF0 to control the output of both 22.5792MHz and 24.576MHz (my speculation)?  

[elan120]

1 minute ago, Bamber said:

You are correct both internal clocks were replaced and I requested  the 3rd external clock point for a future upgrade project.

 

They have moved one internal clock point as you spotted as I asked them to make any changes they felt would bring an improvement.

Thank you @Bamber for the clarification.  Using just one output and REF0 to control the output for both 22.5792MHz and 24.579MHz is a good efficient way to conserve one more output from the sCLK-EX board.  I was hoping SOtM will do the mod after seeing your post but they appear to change their mind now and not willing to mod SU-1 anymore.  I am working on changing out the USB input oscillator (24.000MHz) to see the effect, and consider further mod using sCLK-EX board to compare, and your positive input on the SQ improvement definitely is a good encouragement.

[elan120]

4 hours ago, Bamber said:

@elan120 I've just read your SU-1 mod posts and am impressed with your G-10 blank plate.

 

I'm going to order some 1/8"(3mm) G-10 and will probably make a poor attempt to copy this. 

@Bamber, G-10 is an excellent material for this application, and hope you don't mind me offer couple tips in cutting (hopefully not something you already know)...1) G-10 is a hard and abrasive material, using regular saw blade will dull the blade rather quickly, and it is best to use a carbide cutter and set the feed speed slow.  2) The dust generated from machining contains very fine fiberglass, breathing these powder is extremely harmful to the lung, and contact with skin will make you itch easily, so wear good quality personal protection gears while fabricating, and I high recommend using respirator, long sleeve closing, and surgical gloves.  Although the second tip may look to be excessive, but it is not especially when working with materials like G-10, FR4, carbonfiber...etc.

 

Hope this helps, and let me know in case you have questions about getting your back plate cut.

[elan120]

31 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

Hi,

 

Could you provide link or pic where is this G-10 material being mentioned? I have not heard about this material before, so I would like to find out more.

 

 

 

Below post has a finished back plate made out of G-10.

 

 

Here is the link to the brief description of G-10.

 

 

[elan120]

28 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I wanted to mention an interesting nugget of information Eric and I got during a sit-down with Lee at RMAF. This is in the context of using an sCLK-EX tap to synthesize the sample data frequencies of 22.5792 MHz and 24.576 MHz.

 

I mention this just in case someone is designing an end-to-end setup, and running out of clock taps for some reason.

 

Here's the factoid: Lee mentioned that with sample data frequencies, they can reprogram a single clock tap on the fly to switch between the 2 frequencies. They do this by using a control feedback loop of some kind, where they can detect the sample rate of an impending incoming data stream, and send a control "set the right frequency" signal to the sCLK-EX board.

 

Caveat: due to the language barrier, I can only describe this in very broad terms - I could not glean the details of the feedback loop mechanism.

 

But the application, in whose context he mentioned it, was the use of essentially one clock tap for both 22.5792 MHz and 24.576 MHz in the dX-USBultra.

 

I have no idea if this concept can be used to pack multiple frequencies for other uses. I only mention it as a "good to know" data point.

 

Caveat emptor.

@austinpop, good information indeed.  Based on my limited conversation with SOtM and some additional research for modding my SU-1, only one output tab is needed from sCLK-EX to switch between two frequencies, and the control inputs on sCLK-EX board are the SEL0 and SEL1.  They can, based on the two available input connections, program two different output tabs with two frequencies, so if I can get all the information needed from SOtM to make the project a go, I will be using one of the four output tabs along with SEL0 to control between 22.5792MHz and 24.576MHz outputs.

[elan120]

1 minute ago, Johnseye said:

 

Does this introduce a manual switch or something that automatically knows when a specific frequency is being used?  If manual it limits the number of devices or clocks per sCLK-EX board.  If auto then what's the limit?

The mentioned SEL0 and SEL1 input connections will do the auto frequency switching.  My understanding on the frequency limit is two per output tab, but there need to have a control signal feed into the sCLK-EX SEL0 and SEL1 inputs in order to do the switching.

[elan120]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

 

Since the incoming data is on USB, i.e. an independent clock unrelated to the sample rate clock, as long as the device can read enough info off the stream to determine if the sample rate is of the 44.1 or 48 kHZ family, it has enough information to program the sCLK-EX clock tap appropriately, using the signals @elan120 mentions.

 

Please do let us know how your SU-1 experiments go!

Will do.  I have enough information to do the SU-1 mod using sCLK-EX, but still trying to gather information on what to do with the computer mobo.  I know there is going to be one output to the system clock, one to LAN, and one to tX-USBexp card, but unclear on what other clock(s) to replace, and additionally, what is the output connection used, as I see different pictures from SOtM sCLK-EX instruction manual using an output PCB, but various pictures from this thread that has no output PCB.  Hopefully I can get them to respond what the differences are, and what I need to do to install them.  Once this is understood, I will get the kits to modify both my computer as well as SU-1.

 

 

1 hour ago, octaviars said:

 

I am planing a server with Win10, AO and Roon right now with the same Jetway NF591 mobo as @Johnseye has planned to get modified by SOtM, really looking forward to what they do to it.

So perhaps it is 3 clocks for the mobo (system, LAN and USB) like @ElviaCaprice had done for his mobo and use the leftover clock for the tX-USBexp? My first plan was to use one clock for my router but I dont know if I want to go down that route, perhaps focusing on the server is a better thing?

 

 

I am curious about this as well.  I thought if you use tX-USBexp card, there will be three clocks (system, LAN, and tX-USBexp), not sure if there is a need for the USB clock replacement.

[elan120]

21 minutes ago, rickca said:

Note that this idea of using one clock tap to switch between frequencies applies only to sample data frequencies, so it doesn't apply to anything on your motherboard or tX-USBexp where nothing runs at sample data frequencies.

 

 

My understanding is this can be applied to any frequencies, not just the sampling frequencies.  In order to use this feature, you will need a control signal feed back to sCLK-EX to switch between any two frequencies, in the case of MOBO, since all frequencies are being used at their designed output continuously, there is no switching needed.  In the case of sampling frequencies between 44.1KHz anad 48KHz families, only one frequency is being used at a time, and a control signal is available, in my case, to mod SU-1, this feature can be utilized.

[elan120]

9 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

 

This is very interesting indeed! How did they manage to lower the price to $450 for a switch with a sCLK-EX clock? The sCLK-EX board itself with just 1 clock output is $700 on their website.

I wonder if this is the same switch that this other thread talked about, which appear not to be a SOtM designed product.

 

 

[elan120]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

I have no problem with a primer that lists examples of sCLK-EX configurations based on both approaches. If you or someone else wanted to put a primer together, that would be a fine thing to add to the index. It could probably be done by just a list of existing posts, organized under 2 headings: Endpoint-based systems, and Direct systems. 

 

I just will reiterate it is NOT self-evident that one approach is better than the other. 

It would be great to see approach to higher power sCLK-EX based server that is capable running HQPlayer that can up-sample to DSD512, and this is what I am researching currently to see what server components I need to put one together and perhaps send to SOtM for sCLK-EX upgrade.

[elan120]

14 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

In order for HQPlayer to upsample to DSD512 you need a high speed processor.  You do not need a high amount of power.  Your PSU only needs to be sufficient in providing enough power to the components of your server/pc.  You don't need an nVidia Cuda GPU to upsample DSD512.  The latest Intel and AMD CPUs have 16-18 cores but they run up to 165w.  This isn't necessary, even if you're into processors which I have to admit is sexy stuff.

 

Find out what processor you need to effectively upsample to DSD512.  Design everything around that.  I'm guessing you're looking at a 95w proc.  What we've been kicking around is that there are very few motherboards capable of external DC in that support this proc.  That leaves you with needing either an ATX PSU adapter like that from HDPlex or an actual ATX PSU.  This is what's led to the discussion in approach to power this kind of system.

I currently lean more towards 65w processor instead of 95w without Cuda Offload, which will need a power supply no more than 200w, perhaps around 160w even.  Finding a capable low noise power supply is one of the key search now in addition to finding a suitable Mobo that will have txUSBexp taking one of the 4 output points sCLK-EX.  I still have a lot of research to do, that is the main reason I hope to see if there are more inputs to help put this server together.

[elan120]

9 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

My SR7 will handle that.  It will provide 190w at 19v.  The ASUS board I chose can handle the 95w series of i7's although I first went with the i7 35w proc and was planning on seeing how that performed first.  That board doesn't have a PCI slot so when I decided to go the tx-USBexp route I needed to find a new board.  I then tabled my DSD upsampling plans, but will one day revisit.  Let me know what you end up with.

Your review on SR7 does appear to be an excellent choice for this application, but I am very discouraged in trying to acquire one due to unfavorable communication and lead-time.  Hopefully there are other options available...

 

 

4 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

65w processor will struggle with DSD256 and heavy processing let alone DSD 512. I would look at the HQPlayer thread and some of @ Miska's posts and recommendations, since it will be centred on HQPlayer.

Thanks for the input.  I should clarify, for this particular server, I only plan to use -2's filters, which from experience, 65w processor will work fine, but to run non -2's filters, it will require more than 4 cores, which I am not planning to build at this time.

[elan120]

4 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Something else to keep in mind.  Adding up the mfg stated wattage is going to give you a max rated amount.  Actual utilization is going to be much less.  For example, my previous server added up was about 75w total.  Actual utilization when measured with a Kill A Watt ended up being around 20w.  

Good point.  I am currently debate whether I should consider getting an ATX power supply first to run the test and see what actual spike output requirements are, such as initial turn-on power surge and the like.

[elan120]

22 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Now if you are interested in upgrading clocks, for ~$20 the Crystek: http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-575.pdf  and I'd recommend using this (or similar from NHT) perhaps with a small adapter board, to directly replace the clock on the board, without cables, or connectors. Of course the power supply is absolutely critical.

Just out of my own curiosity, were you refer to the network switch clock or DAC clock?  In case you did refer to switch clock such as 24MHz clock, can you point me to a retail place that carry the item?  All of the online retailers I know don't carry 24MHz or 25MHz oscillators, and you will need to purchase in bulk quantities from OEM.

[elan120]

50 minutes ago, RickyV said:

 

Is it possible to replace the XO with a crystek 575-25 3,3V?

My finding from all online electronic retailers I know of, Crystek CCHD-575 either 24.000 or 25.000MHz oscillators can only be purchased directly from OEM with bulk quantities.  Please let me know if low quantities can be purchased somewhere.

[elan120]

3 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I have had this in my eBay watch list for a while.

 

Look at this on eBay
Crystek Femtosecond CCHD-575 Upgrade Amanero XMOS Digital Interface

 

Skickat från min iPhone

Thank you for the link, but this is for either 22.5792MHz or 24.576MHz oscillators, which any online electronics retailer carry them.  The ones that I cannot find through regular online stores are either 24.000MHz or 25.000MHz oscillators.

[elan120]

3 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Ok, I thought the 24.576MHz was the same as 24.000MHz. Apperently not! ? I will let you know if I find any of the other ones without bulk package.

That would be great!  Thank you.

 

FYI, both 22.5792MHz and 24.576MHz are commonly used in DAC for 44.1KHz and 48KHz music file samplings, where 24.000MHz is commonly used in USB input and 25.000MHz is commonly found in network input.

[elan120]

1 hour ago, Forehaven said:

Thanks, just was wondering if there was a diff. in clocks b/w the models.

For network, all clocks are 25.000MHz.

 

6 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Do you know if it is possible to use a 24.576Mhz clock instead of the 25.000Mhz, or do it have to be a 25.000Mhz clock? 

Short answer is "no", using 24.576MHz clock will not work.

[elan120]

6 minutes ago, RickyV said:

What maybe possible too is, leave L1 in pleace and solder a thin wire on the bottem side to the L1/ 3.3v pin (output) ( make sure it does not short with housing). Lead the wire topside. Use pcb mounting screw for - connection. But you need to cut pcb connection disableing input of dc to dc converter. And solder a wire to the rear of connector housing. 

 

Could it work by removing L1, solder the wire to output pin, and not cut out pcb trace?

[elan120]

38 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Cutting the pcb trace is easy an easy to correct, on both side of the cutting point is a solder pad. Removing L1 may not be that easy.

I think if you do not cut the trace you still have the switching noise. 

Removing L1 appears to be easy, but good point about turning off MP1482.  Thank you.