A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

bobfa · December 31, 2017

What an amazing collection of information. It took me over three days of “spare” time to read the whole thing. Thanks to EVERONE.

I am evolving my systems and have upgraded my DAC/AMP to the new Brooklyn DAC+ and AMP. My current front end is Sonic Transporter i5 and an microrendu. I have SOTM SMS-200 ultra and a modded switch on the way. I have held off on the USB re-clock part for just a bit. I am looking at the grounding and shielding ideas that I can do on my own. The idea of sleeving the USB with a shield and grounding the Switchs, etc. will be fun.

i have a couple of server questions.

Has anyone used the new Sonic Transporter i7 bridged server?

I am looking to try my i7 Intel NUC with Windows 10 to see how that works for sound quality and bridging networks. There was a whole section in the thread on out manually optimizing windows. Does anyone have any thoughts about that or one of the methods?

—-RJF

bobfa · December 19, 2018

Room First,....! Sorry!

You changed too much to give a path. But I do not understand why you made some of the changes. Why the shift in the server? Why not bridged? What is your Roon endpoint?

bobfa · December 19, 2018

So let us say the room is ok.

Before you spend any money try a few of these ideas.

Are the speaker cables phased right? (sorry, but back to basics. I have screwed that one up more than once)

Finish the bridging and the server optimization. Get that stable. (and whatever else that is in-flux).

Look at the Roon setup to make sure it does not have something set wrong about your DAC/ Audio system. DSP options, etc.

I doubt it is the ultraRendu. I assume you have a good power supply on it.

I do not know about AC power in the system. A dedicated circuit, etc.. made a big difference to my system. At least have the circuit breaker checked. And check the outlets.

@lmitche mentioned network isolation. It might help but get the rest stable before you add stuff.

bobfa · December 30, 2018

I love EARLY SUCCESS so I thought I would share:

I am waiting for the new generation NUC board and fanless case to arrive to build and compare to my UltraRendu. I have NUC7i7BNH that I have run as a Roon ROCK server in the past. It is now running Windows but not in daily use. So I "borrowed" the external monitor one of the laptops,... (yes I told my wife)

The Process:

1. I fully updated machine; both Windows and BIOS to get the machine stable.

2. Downloaded my headless license of AL.

3. Used Etcher to burn the image to a 64Gb USB stick

4. Booted machine and it did not work; it booted to Windows???

5. Enabled UFEI in the BIOS... Silly me

6. Booted to AL and it came up to the AL menu nicely. (4K 23in display is OVERKILL)

7. Used the menu in v8 of AL to turn on Roon bridge

8. Enabled the analog output of the machine in Roon

9. Plugged in my HD-6xx headphones and played music!

A few notes:

I am running the headless OS, but I have a display and keyboard on it for now. They work fine.
When running Windows, the fan runs a lot more and the NUC is "hot".
This NUC may end up as part of my testing to be the ROON core for testing.
Now the fun and the learning begin.

Sound:

I have only listened for about 1 min, but I think that I have never heard a headphone jack on a PC sound that good. It was quiet in the background. -- I had no expectation bias! I did not expect it to work at all; yet.

Next steps:

setup remote headless operation
test shutdown/reboot/back and forth to windows
learn how to RAMBOOT
Do some listening: Hook up to my Lyr 3 with multi-bit DAC...
Think about some optimization
test in the main system A/B to UltraRendu. (low expectations here the NUC is bog standard with fan and factory SMPS)

Bob

bobfa · December 31, 2018

Walking the "Stairway to Heaven"?

I am working through setting up my AL USB stick. I now have the clock set right (just needed timezone set), and I turned on NTP. I like clocks right for file management, etc. I also have set AL to run from RAM. I noticed on reboot. I had to enter a Y/N question to load to RAM. I will need to change that when the keyboard and display are not connected. I have found the Audio Linux User Guide to be helpful.

As a reminder, I am testing with my NUC7i7BNH with SSDs, Fan, SMPS, etc. This system is not the end machine just a test bed. And I assume this is only a few steps up the "Stairway to Heaven."

The A/B/C listening to I am in the middle of is using a Chord Mojo as a core connected to the NUC against the Chord Mojo+Poly combo. I am using my LCDi4 headphones.

1. Roon -> NUC/AL -> Mojo

2. Roon -> Poly+Mojo. *** Not Certified by Roon yet ***

3. iPhone running Glider.app controlling Poly+Mojo

It takes about two minutes to swap between configurations. Powering the Mojo on and off and waiting for the Mojo+Poly to startup and reboot switching to Roon mode. Unfortunately, during my initial testing, the battery in the Poly went dead, so I have paused until everything is charged up.

I selected four tracks to evaluate:

1. "Into White" from Teaser and the Firecat" by Cat Stevens

2. "Omega" from "Untitled" by BT

3. "Made of Glass" from "Colours in Sound" by Joe Ford

4. "Fields of Gold" from "Songbird" by Eva Cassidy

There are a bunch of others in the rotation, but these are the ones I am actively targeting.

VERY Preliminary sound "differences" discussion.

The NUC/AL is far on top. The order of SQ for me right now is 1, 3, 2. The NUC/AL background feels darker and more open. The music is presented more distinctly on the NUC/AL vs. the Poly configurations. Some of the very lowest bass sounds on BT fell muddy on the other systems.

Remember that my goal here is to replace the Ultrarendu in my "big" system. I expected the NUC/AL to really beat the Poly.

bobfa · January 1, 2019

On 12/30/2018 at 8:21 PM, bobfa said:

Walking the "Stairway to Heaven"?

I am working through setting up my AL USB stick. I now have the clock set right (just needed timezone set), and I turned on NTP. I like clocks right for file management, etc. I also have set AL to run from RAM. I noticed on reboot. I had to enter a Y/N question to load to RAM. I will need to change that when the keyboard and display are not connected. I have found the Audio Linux User Guide to be helpful.

As a reminder, I am testing with my NUC7i7BNH with SSDs, Fan, SMPS, etc. This system is not the end machine just a test bed. And I assume this is only a few steps up the "Stairway to Heaven."

I have moved a bit further along in my testing. I have shrunk the test bed down to be more mobile with a small HDMI display if I need it. I am still using the NUC7i7BNH test bed. I have removed both of the SSDs. I turned off the SATA, M2, Bluetooth, WiFi, TurboBoost in the BIOS.

I have a funny little 60hz buzz in the system right now that goes away if I put my hand on the NUC or the Mojo. Sort of annoying but this is a test....

I have skipped a couple of floors up on the sound quality stairway. I have two words that describe what I am hearing: Smooth Detail. Over the next couple of days I am going to setup the NUC so that I can swap between the Ultrarendu in my listening system.

Off to family stuff....

Bob

bobfa · January 2, 2019

When I put this NUC back into service as a Windows 10 general purpose PC I will have to reset the BIOS to factory...... 😀

I will go look at the BIOS settings. We need a reference document.... Well I do.

Thanks

bobfa · January 2, 2019

So the company is gone and we are starting to put the Christmas decorations away. The stereo is playing with the NUC as the Roon Endpoint.

I have things organized so I can swap between the NUC and the Ultrarendu by moving the network and USB cables. I am not sure I will ever swap back.... The NUC is powered by the SMPS it came with. (Not the final config). The Lush2 goes to an ISOregen then to the Yggdrasil.

*** The blue and black blocks are vibration blocks for HVAC equipment. I use them for air spacing and scratch protection.

bobfa · January 2, 2019

10 hours ago, rickca said:

@bobfa if you're running ramroot, remove your USB flash drive after you boot. It makes quite a difference in sound quality. I know it seems crazy that a stupid USB stick makes a difference, but it does. Try it while some music is playing.

I have just been removing the USB stick after it boots up. I will play.

bobfa · January 2, 2019

10 hours ago, rickca said:

Does this mean you've concluded that you prefer NUC/AL to ultraRendu or the other way around? Can you describe the differences you hear?

A very big yes to the NUC/AL. I am still playing with the “wrong NUC” but it is amazing. I am waiting for my board to be shipped. I order over the weekend and I assume that they were on holiday. I hope it will ship today.

bobfa · January 2, 2019

17 hours ago, Advieira said:

Like @romaz said, poweful PCs are better servers. What do you think for the new mac mini 2018 (4.2ghz and 12 mb cache)? Could be a great server to SQ?

I would not assume how well it will work. The Mac Mini still has the internal SMPS and PWM fan. Some of the testing has been done using workstation class machines. Lots more to learn here.

bobfa · January 2, 2019

1 minute ago, Advieira said:

But you are using NUC i7 with Fan and SMPS and like the sound more than UR/JS2.

Yes that is true. I warrant caution with all of this. There is a lot more to report on. I will talk more later today about my system. I will not keep the current NUC I AM TESTING IN MY SYSTEM.

i have a fanless case in house and a NUC on order.

There are are some things about the sound in my system that are not where I want them to be.

bobfa · January 2, 2019

1 hour ago, Advieira said:

I really want to know how the impact of LPS and fanless NUC7 to SQ compared with stock power supply and fan. I have a slight mistrust that should not be too much ...

I have been playing with all of the little bits for about two years now. I have changed the power supply and removed the fan from a MacMini with great results.

I will have the ability to test two NUCs in my system soon. I am not sure the test will be fair as the motherboards are different.

bobfa · January 2, 2019

I want everyone to be careful here. My sound quality reports are preliminary. As of right now the (WRONG) NUC/AL in my system has much more “space/depth” there is much more detail in some of the tracks I am testing with. There is more clarity in some of the female vocals. Again this is early, There is one track I have in rotation sounds a lot worse.

Over the top of this there is a bit of top end glare or something that is not there with the UltraRendu. I am “betting” that it will go away when I get the PWM fan out of the system and put the NUC on the JS-2. I also still have to fully optimize the BIOS on the NUCs.

I cannot go to far with the NUC I have without removing it from the case which I do not intend to do. This NUC has other roles to fill in my computing evironment. I hope that SimplyNUC will ship my new board today.

What I will be testing is NUC in fanless case running AL against the UR. Both will be powered by my JS-2 and I will separately power my ISORegen with an LPS-1.2. I have to build a network diagram to show all of this.

bobfa · January 2, 2019

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Happy New Years Bob. Why not run your NUC from your JS-2? Many dozens of people do. 12V is just fine for those.

You’ll of course need a cable with 5.5mm x 2.5mm plug at the device end—versus 5.5mm x 2.1mm as you use with the UltraRendu. I can fix you up with that.

Cheers,

—Alex C.

Alex,

Thank you very much. I was running the power supply to a Mytek DAC and my Mac Mini to start with. Boy that was a lot of words and posts ago! I have the 2.5mm cables on my JS-2. I have them adapted to 2.1 with barrel adapters. I never ordered new cables with the right connectors. Ultimately I should upgrade. I assume I will have two devices in the main system, a Roon endpoint and a ISORegen.

I have removed the ISOregen for now and I am using a single Transparent Audio HP USB cable between the Yggdrasil and the endpoints. The JS-2 is powering both the UR and the NUC/AL. The NUC still has the fan inside. I have to review the BIOS settings. They are a bit different on this NUC since this is an i7.

I will do some listening after lunch. ( I want to disconnect or turn off the fan for a bit too)

bobfa · January 3, 2019

SQ a Diversion

I said I would do some testing this afternoon and report back. We are going to slow down a bit. Let me first add a little bit to my situation.

I have been investigating two methods to improve the sound quality in my Living Room. I have been looking at possible room treatments, but that is a long shot as it is a formal shared space. I have also been "messing around" with DSP room correction software. Both of these options were becoming daunting, and I was stalled out.

In my office, I have rounded out the system there, and I was not happy with the staging on my desktop speakers. I had forgotten that near-field monitors worked better on stands. I was playing with the foam blocks that you place under the speakers, and they helped a lot. However, I found that many folks were using the pucks from Isocoustics. I got a set of them for each speaker! The sound quality is excellent, and the staging is beautiful. Happy!

Now back to the Living Room. While researching for the office system, I discovered out that Isoacoustics makes stands for floor standing speakers. After installing the GAIA III Stands on my B&W 804 Nautilus speakers the sound of the system changed dramatically for the better. (Mostly) I moved back and forth with spikes, just on the carpet and the GAIA III stands. I have finalized the system setup with two planks of Delrin under the speakers that the stands, so they have something to grip. The Delrin bases also allow for location adjustments vs. spikes. I was starting to get comfortable with the differences. Then,... I "discovered" the NUC/AL stuff on the forums.

Fast forward a week or so and I have my Windows 10 NUC stripped down, running AL in the Living Room system. I set it all up on the workbench with the Mojo DAC and moved it upstairs two days ago.

I am amazed at the changes in the sound of my system. Virtually everything I listen to is better to my ear. I have one track that does not sound right! Not all of the changes are for the better; there is some top end glare that was not there a month ago. The NUC/AL piled on top of the changes in the speaker stands is almost overwhelming. There are a lot of interactions here that I HAVE to evaluate. The overall tone of the system is just so different that I do not want to overreact to the changes.

Finally, I am about the only person listening to the system right now. I have a couple of others scheduled to start visiting to help out listening!

There are a few more steps to this process.

More time listening
Build my final NUL/AL endpoint. (I have started an article on it!)
Waiting on the UpTone ethernet switch
Test with the GAIA III stands on their spikes
Looking at AL on the server
Much more listening!

RJF

bobfa · January 3, 2019

3 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Just make sure you give any new electronics and cable plenty of time to burn-in,

Thank you for that. All of this equipment is fully burned in. This is all re-configured. Now when my new NUC arrives, it will need time!

bobfa · January 7, 2019

Today I had a second listener over to the house and we spent some time playing music! My friend had spent a couple of long sessions listening to the system before the recent changes. Today we only listened to the “new”. That is with the GAIA III stands and the temporary NUC running AL in RAM as a Roon Endpoint. I want to report the following:

1. When listening to some vocal tracks (Eva Cassidy and Lorena Mckinnett) he commented several times about the separation and the “space” around everything.

2. On a couple of classical pieces he remarked that he could hear the difference between the first chair and second chair violins. (I cannot hear that much detail but I did not sit in an orchestra like he has).

3. We took a break for lunch and a few other things. I asked if he wanted me to go back to the other Roon Endpoint and he said NO!....

Side note: a lot of eyes closed listening to the feeling of the music. He said he had never heard that kind of depth separation.

My NUC board will be here tomorrow and I am writing an article on how to install it into the AKASA case and my setup on AL. Later in the week I will have my HDPLEX power supply to put the NAS and the Sonic Transporter on. Waiting for Audio network switches... I think I am zeroing in on things.

***. I will have a third listener over later this week. He is even more critical and I am excited to hear his opinion.

Bob (Mr. Happy Dance)

bobfa · January 10, 2019

Physical location of modified Ethernet switch and cabling question.

My system today is a Sonic Transporter i7DSP bridged to my system with 50ft of “Normal” cat 6 cable. I have one switch on order from TLS and I am waiting to order the UpTone switch. I am interested in where others put the switch and what cabling they use.

I can put the switch in my server “rack” in the basement next to the Roon Server. Then run to the stereo about 50ft.

I can put the switch in the stereo rack and use the standard Cat6 back to the basement. Then a “good” short Ethernet cable to the endpoint.

I have about 3 weeks till the TLS switch arrives so this not urgent.

FYI if in the basement the switch will be on my HDPLEX 200W. In the stereo it will be on an LPS-1.2.

Bob

bobfa · January 11, 2019

22 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Here is my approach to network hygiene. I don't claim this is the perfect solution, but its the best I've achieved so far in my system.

Rajiv thank you for that diagram and philosophy. Your thoughts really help.

Right now my network system is similar. Cable-Modem ---> Orbi AC3000 Router --> TP-Link 24 port switch --> Sonic Transporter i7DSP server --> bridged network --> AL/NUC in music system with about 50ft of cable. Tomorrow I should have an HDPLEX 200LPS that will initially run the Sonic Transporter only as a first test. My ST has the music internally on 10TB spinning disks so not experimenting with my Qnap NAS yet.

I will insert the TLS switch into the system right before the AL/NUC and mount it in the Stereo system with an LPS-1.2. OR put it next to the server on the HDPLEX and try that.

I am not at this point considering running the rest of the core network on "fancy" power supplies. I am considering optical isolation and a managed switch upgrade when the UpTone audio switch comes out.

I am hoping that a single fiber optic link will give me the isolation I need between the music system and the rest of the network. I KNOW I have a long way to go. Just getting a TLS switch will be very interesting.

Now off to new server designs.

bobfa · January 11, 2019

On 1/6/2019 at 11:02 PM, bobfa said:

Today I had a second listener over to the house and we spent some time playing music! My friend had spent a couple of long sessions listening to the system before the recent changes. Today we only listened to the “new”. That is with the GAIA III stands and the temporary NUC running AL in RAM as a Roon Endpoint. I want to report the following:

1. When listening to some vocal tracks (Eva Cassidy and Lorena Mckinnett) he commented several times about the separation and the “space” around everything.

2. On a couple of classical pieces he remarked that he could hear the difference between the first chair and second chair violins. (I cannot hear that much detail but I did not sit in an orchestra like he has).

3. We took a break for lunch and a few other things. I asked if he wanted me to go back to the other Roon Endpoint and he said NO!....

Side note: a lot of eyes closed listening to the feeling of the music. He said he had never heard that kind of depth separation.

My NUC board will be here tomorrow and I am writing an article on how to install it into the AKASA case and my setup on AL. Later in the week I will have my HDPLEX power supply to put the NAS and the Sonic Transporter on. Waiting for Audio network switches... I think I am zeroing in on things.

***. I will have a third listener over later this week. He is even more critical and I am excited to hear his opinion.

Bob (Mr. Happy Dance)

Yesterday my friend and fellow music listener spend the afternoon switching cables, Roon endpoints, flipping LP’s, and just relaxing. The “goal” of the listening session was to decide how much different the AL/NUC was compared to the UltraRendu. In addition I wanted to evaluate the ISORegen in the system with the AL/NUC. I also threw in some LP listening to see if we had any observations from that.

So here are some “conclusions”:

1. The ISORegen works and helps whenever it is in place. This is staying in the system. (More observations below)***

2. I have ZERO regrets with the UltraRendu. There is just nothing wrong with the device. The system sounds great with it in.

3. Even with the simple goals we messed up and left a cable configuration wrong for part of the listening session.

4. The AL/NUC endpoint does not kill the UltraRendu but we both liked the sound from it better than with the UltraRendu.

Just a reminder my system is still in flux and my friend Rich has not heard the system with the IsoAcoustics stands on the speakers. I do not have a Audiophile network switch in the system yet. We used Roon and Tidal for all the digital playback. My server is a Sonic Transporter i7DSP located away from the system and in network bridge mode.

Airing the laundry out: I am having a USB crisis. My Lush2 cable has failed for some reason. I have to put a DVM on it and see that all the connections are being made. So when I am using the ISORegen I am using a basic Schiit USB cable between it an the Bridge under test.

The first part of the testing was A/B swap between the UltraRendu and the AL/NUC. This was done using a method I like where you listen to 30-40 seconds of a piece and then make the swap to listen again.
The second part of the testing was using the AL/NUC and swap the ISORegen in and out.
The third part of the testing was a more relaxing listen to some music on LP and then go back over to file based audio and listen there. This is the comfort test!

Stupid Mistakes: After we were done for the afternoon I discovered that a portion of the listening was done WITHOUT the ISORegen in place. We were listening to some LP’s and when we went back to file based music I forgot to check the USB. The last hour of listening on the AL/NUC was without the ISORegen. I did not discover this until this morning.

Rich brought over some of his Jazz collection and a playlist of classical music examples he is comfortable with. We also bounced around some of the female vocals I like and a little bit of electronic music. The LP listening was done to see if the file stuff was fatiguing us.

In the A/B testing of the UltraRendu and the AL/NUC there is a clear difference between the two. The AL/NUC improves the staging and I would say the precision of instruments, fingers on guitar strings, clarity of brushes on symbols, initial imact of the drum hit or kick are the highlights. When I am sitting off to the side listening I hear things in the music that I have not heard before. It turns my head on a regular basis.

During the IN/OUT testing of the ISORegen I have a Transparent Audio HP USB cable and a Schiit basic USB cable. The Transparent cable always connects to the DAC. So the swap is to move that cable between the ISORegen and the network bridge. All it took was one swap to tell us both the worth of the device. For me it is the LightRoom De-Haze filter that removes the look of atmospheric haze from photogaphs. Sometimes that filter is amazing and most of the time it just clears things up a bit.

Overall I am very happy with what we did yesterday. I am pleased with the results of my construction and setup of an AL/NUC endpoint in my system. I am leaving the AL/NUC and the ISORegen in the system for listening.

I am waiting on a TLS network switch and an HDPLEX power supply while thinking about how to improve the server side of things. I cannot say what the ultimate goal is. I assume that I will keep a split server and network bridge system. Is the OpticalRendu interesting? An AL/NUC server with optane memory is very interesting. I am slowing down and thinking.

The reality of time budget and dollar budget is here today. Today is back to the realities of work.... Today I am putting the UltraRendu in my office with the LPS-1.2 as the front end to my Multibit LYR3.

In the future! I have a test in mind where I put the UltraRendu in as the endpoint. Then I take the AL/NUC install an Optane SSD and make it the Roon Core on an HDPLEX power supply with the QNAP NAS as the music storage. Or do I have a certain NUC expert build me something even more interesting so that I can work.....

Fun with Stereo! And as Hans B. Says “Enjoy the Music”

Bob

bobfa · January 12, 2019

On 1/10/2019 at 9:24 PM, austinpop said:

Here is my approach to network hygiene. I don't claim this is the perfect solution, but its the best I've achieved so far in my system.

I am still working on my network designs and I started playing with an idea last evening. I have a small TP-Link travel router that I have setup in client mode so it is an end-point on my network. I then hooked my UltraRend system to the travel router and now that system is on wireless. I have no sound quality report yet! I have been thinking of using alternative connection such as wireless or fiber optic connection to see if it changes the sound quality! I am wondering if it elimates the need for fancy switches,......

bobfa · January 14, 2019

30 minutes ago, oilpaint said:

I thought this post would be helpful to those people who lurk on CS but don’t have the full grasp of all the issues and terms discussed here (that would be me). My system had evolved over the years to include the following: MacBook Air - SOtM 200Ultra Neo - SOtM tX USBultra - Mutec MC3+USB - Devialet 1000 - Magico S3s with a Mutec REF-10 clocking the 200, tX, and MC3. Sounded great - but what a lot of boxes and cables!

Dan

Dan,

Thanks for the report I am glad your system is sounding better and that it is a lot simpler.

Quick question are you using a wired Ethernet connection between the two NUC boxes? In the first part of the post you mentioned Ethernet but I was wondering if you had gone to wireless when you installed the server?

Bob

bobfa · January 17, 2019

2 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Hi @Aberrant-Decoder and welcome to AS!

Dunno about a sticky but that would be a good idea.

For endpoint basics the following are popular:

Boards

NUC7CJPH or NUC7PJYH - with Akasa Newton fanless case

or

NUC7i7DNBE/KE/HE with Akasa Plato X7 case fanless case

The first two are celeron based and cheaper. The i7DN models are i7 based, more expensive but potentially better.

4 or 8GB of RAM will suffice for an endpoint.

You don't need anything else other than a decent PSU for the endpoint.

Probably worth checking out the following thread:

Any of the above models would also work for a server but you'll want to consider 16 or 32GB RAM.

Also if you want to do heavy processing like upsampling you'd be better going with the i7 models.

An SSD is optional if you want to store the music in the server (as opposed to on a NAS or suchlike).

Finally, re this question:

If you're using AudioLinux then you can save the system and settings to your USB memory stick that you boot off. So it's persisted in terms of how often you back it up.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Alan

I started a thread that has what I think you are asking for.

bobfa · January 22, 2019

1 hour ago, hifi25nl said:

Since Roon is writing new files to the installation directory /opt/RoonServer directory (this is not a standard and correct procedure in linux systems with packaged applications...) installation could fail.

To be sure that all is fine, please install manually with

yaourt -Syy roonserver roonbridge --noconfirm --force

Where --force in this case is unfortunately necessary.

If you want, you can edit the file /opt/scripts/alupdate.sh and add --force to the same line.

This will be added in the next menu release, that will have an automatic script for transferring roon database to anther drive and some more option (Turbo=off) for CPU governor

Note: to be sure of version type pacman -Q roonserver

Would it be best to stop the audio services first and then run the install?

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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