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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

ISO-Regen meets Ultra Trifecta - First Impressions

 
With about 70 hours under the ISO-Regen's belt, I decided it was safe to try a first listen. This time, Eric and I met at my place using my headphone setup (see sig) as the reference.
 
We will do another round in a couple weeks when the ISO-Regen should have at least 200 hours of burn-in.
 
Note: 
  • All components were powered by LPS-1 PSUs.
  • The sCLK-EX modded Zyxel switch (aka Z-switch) and modded sMS-200 were powered by a single LPS-1 using a Ghent Y-cable.
  • Galvanic isolation was ON (switch set to position I) on the ISO-Regen in all cases except experiment 5 below.
Key Questions and Associated Experiments
  1. Compare mR+ISO-Regen vs Ultra Trifecta - Does adding the ISO-Regen to the mR close the gap relative the SOtM Ultra trifecta?
    • Baseline:          Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra (Ultra Trifecta)
    • Comparison:     mR > ISO-Regen
    • Result: 
      • Sorry folks, this is still no contest. The Ultra trifecta has significantly better SQ. It will be interesting to see how much further the Ultrarendu closes the gap. As I have maintained, the secret sauce in the trifecta has to be the modded switch. Once more such reclocking switches come along, there should be many more viable alternatives. But for now, the Trifecta rules.
         
  2. Replace tX-USBultra with ISO-Regen
    • Baseline:          Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra
    • Comparison:     Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen
    • Result: 
      • Very close. WOW. Very, very close! We are so impressed with the ISO-Regen. 
      • Ultimately, we differed slightly in our overall preference.
        • Eric felt the ISO-Regen sounded better by a hair
        • Rajiv felt the tX was ahead by a nose
      • Minor differences aside, it points to the fact that the ISO-R is an insane value for the money.
         
  3. Add ISO-Regen before tX in the trifecta
    • Baseline:            Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen
    • Comparison:       Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
    • Result: 
      • The best sounding configuration of the day.
      • Again, we differed slightly in our overall preference.
        • Eric felt he could not hear the incremental improvement the tX added over the baseline
        • Rajiv felt the tX added a noticeable increase in SQ - notably low end heft and a tad more resolution
           
  4. Add ISO-Regen after tX in the trifecta
    • Baseline:           Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
    • Comparison:      Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra > ISO-Regen
    • Result: 
      • Not as good as before the tX
      • This sounded flatter, smaller, and a bit lacking in resolution and texture
         
  5. Which sounds better - GI ON or OFF
    • Baseline:           Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen (GI ON) > tX-USBultra
    • Comparison:      Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen (GI OFF) > tX-USBultra
    • Result: 
      • This wasn't as cut and dried as I expected
      • Over several tracks, we concluded the GI setting of ON (default) sounded better, but the difference was small
      • On at least one track (Nightingale by Norah Jones on DSD), we felt the GI OFF sounded a tad more natural
    • Editorial: @Superdad - I already ragged you about the labels for the GI DIP switch in the ISO-R thread. Enough said.
       
  6. Finally, we retried a couple of Ethernet experiments. 
    What is the SQ effect of iSO-Cat 6 Isolator
    • Baseline:           generic 6a > Z-switch > Supra 6a > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
    • Comparison:      generic 6a > iSO-Cat6 > BJC 6a > Z-switch > Supra 6a > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
    • Result: 
      • No impact. Nada. Zip. Zero.
      • We continue to hear no effect from these isolators - first on Eric's system, now mine.
      • Others do. Odd.
         
  7. What is the SQ effect of dCBL-Cat7 cable
    • Baseline:           generic 6a > iSO-Cat6 > BJC 6a > Z-switch > Supra 6a > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
    • Comparison:      generic 6a > iSO-Cat6 > BJC 6a > Z-switch > dCBL-7 > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
    • Result: 
      • Definite improvement
      • Consistent with SQ improvement we heard on Eric's system
      • But magnitude of SQ improvement is not large enough for me to justify the cost of the cable ($500)
      • Might be worth picking up used.
Overall Musings
  • The ISO-Regen is a gem. Why am I not surprised! My order for one has already been placed.
  • The Trifecta with ISO-Regen (Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra) is true endgame material. At some level I agree with @hols - the ISO-R adds color. But for me, it corrects the slightly thin SOtM house sound with the more mellow and rich Uptone house sound. The end result is magical. But expensive. No doubt. There's no free lunch.
  • In decreasing order of performance, taking price into consideration:
    • $3190:    Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra + 3 x LPS-1s
    • $2540     Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra + 2 x LPS-1s
    • $2940     Z-switch > sMS-200ultra > ISO-Regen + 3 x LPS-1s
      • you can get by sharing an LPS-1 between the Z-switch and the ISO-R, but as has been pointed out, this defeats GI.
  • Bottom line: The Ultra trifecta is still - for me - a  real sweet spot in terms of value for money. If you can swing a bit more, the Trifecta+ISO-Regen is just sublime. After that, you can slice and dice into subsets as your budget requires.

 

Wow... Thnak you so much for the insightful report. It will be very interesting if or when the Mutec Ref10 is added as a Reference clock for the Ultra trifecta.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 5 weeks later...
4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Cool! I look forward to hearing what difference/improvement that makes.

 

What model NAS do you have? Does you NAS have a special connector like mine does, below?

 

nhenepfobdikoccm.thumb.png.ae221bea6c21e1bf6b5b525a3bcafce6.png

  

I am also trying to get the pin layout for this too (I also have DS916+) and also looking to replace the stock SMPS with LPS. 

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I would be interested in that too! Please do let me know what you learn.

 

Will do... the only reasonbly priced LPS I found was from Teradak that can do the required Voltage and Current 

http://www.teradak.com/products/98.html

Will contact them too see the pricing and if they know the pinout connection to DS916+. 

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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1 minute ago, Cornan said:

 

Your welcome Kritpoon! ? I am sure it will be an improvement to stock SMPS. If you use starquad DC cables and starquad AC cables your smile will be even wider when you think how much you spent on it! ?

 

Great!!! Now I'll have to contact Ghent to see if he can make me a cable with the suiting connectors!

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Yes that's a good idea. I had contacted them a few months ago about an LPS for the DS916+, and Michael had recommended a DC-150W (12V@10A) for $289 shipped. In fact the picture I posted was from him. So they must know the required pinout for that connector.

 

Thank you for the information austinpop. The other manufacturer I have contacted also quoted 12v@10A for DS916+. Which he also personally own NAS and use that spec to run his NAS. Though his pricing for his LPS is quite expensive @ USD1,000.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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3 hours ago, afrancois said:

I received my 3 sheets of 3M AB5100SHF-210X297 today and used them around the sMS-200 ultra, MC3+ USB and even under some of my LPS-1’s with very good results.

I’m so satisfied that I immediately ordered extra 5 sheets. I still got a lot of equipment that could potentially benefit from this miracle paper. DAC’s, power amplifiers and headphone amplifier.

Perhaps not everybody will benefit as much as I do. Most of my equipment is in the garage and it seems a rather noisy environment.
 

 

Thank you for the report. Did you put the sheets inside or side the equipment case?

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just wants to share something, I have upgrades my front end from NAS->UltraRendu (LPS-1)->IsoRegen(LPS-1) all was replaced with a single box server Antipodes DX Gen3 with the new board (with 4TB SSD storage)->Lush Cable->Mutec MC-3+ USB (With REF10)->Yggdrasil. It thought that my spaghetti chain sounds really really good and I was very happy. There came along the Antipodes and everything else was a history. IMHO the Antipodes is much much for natural, organic, very resolving without any harshness. The midrange and upper-midrage is very smooth. Comparing to the same song I hear on both system, the UltraRendu with ISO-Regen still has some digital harshness in HF and mid-HF.  Image is very 3d and holographic. At one point, I thought I was listening to a Vinyl rig. Its really really good. I have not try it with the ISO-Regen, but once it pass the burn in period I might put in the ISO-Regen to see its effect.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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8 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

What Antipodes device are you using?  It could be due to the LPSU it uses.  In the end it's a server or renderer so its performance will largely depend on the components used.

 

I am using Antipodes DX Generation 3 (with the newV4X circuit utilizing customized ASUS board) Music Server. I found it to be better than NAS+NAA in my previous setup (as described above). I think its overall design on the server board and its in house modified OS version of Linux (I think same OS platform use by Sonore and/or Sonicorbiter). Beside the Server is very lower power less than 25w while in operation.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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  • 1 month later...
9 hours ago, flkin said:

Reading about the recent posts here about the Ref 10 and the MC3+USB, I thought some would be interested to hear that @Kritpoon and I have done some tests over the weekend with our joint SOtM Trifecta and @Kritpoon's Antipodes with Ref10/MC3+ system. It's in the other thread about the Antipodes located here:

 

 

Interesting results that will probably involve both of us spending more money! 9_9

 

Will be writing it up over the next few days and posting it in that Antipodes thread and here as well. Some of the questions I will be answering will be:

  1. Cybershaft OP14 vs. Mutec Ref.10
  2. Antipodes with MC3+ vs. SOtM Stable with MC3+
  3. Bridged Macbook unoptimised with MC3+ vs. Antipodes with MC3+
  4. Bridged Macbook unoptimised vs. Antipodes with MC3+
  5. Antipodes with SOtM Stable with MC3+ vs. All of the above
  6. Antipodes to UltraRendu to MC3+ vs. (5)
  7. Habst 75ohm cable vs. Pasternack RG216 75ohm cable 

2-6 will be clocked by the Mutec Ref.10 wherever possible.


Will be back..

 

Thank you for doing the write up Khun Kin @flkin I am very much looking forward to read about our findings and maybe some more experiments you have done within the past days :D

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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1 hour ago, LTG2010 said:

I'm waiting for mine, he's made all the modules, waiting for the case and transformers, this and following week, then put it all together.

 Can you share some details specifications of your PS order?  Is it multi-rails? Order lead time?

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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6 hours ago, flkin said:

Ok, that's an interesting test, I'll have a look. Will it matter to you if I keep the mod switch there? I'm not sure if I can remove the mod switch easily as the cabling is rather tight and short and SOtM's stiff cables are a real bi*ch to deal with x-D

 

  1. Antipodes > mod switch > tX-USBultra > DAC
  2. Antipodes > mod switch > tX-USBultra > MC-3+ via USB > DAC
  3.           Mac > mod switch > modded sMS-200 > tX-USBultra > MC-3+ via USB > DAC

 

  1. May or may not be possible since Antipodes doesn't recognise the DAC2.0. Not sure if the tX-USBultra can help.
  2. Should be doable 
  3. Should be doable

 

@flkin lets set up for the 2nd round of test! LOL....

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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2 hours ago, Confused said:

Very well put.  I am baffled too, but maybe there is a good explanation for this?

 

1 hour ago, rickca said:
2 hours ago, zoltan said:

 

I got this image from the Habst website.

Habst-Digital-BNC-Kabel.thumb.jpg.dc3706d9ecd1f8d6527da16f76a5d39b.jpg

 

27 minutes ago, SwissBear said:

A few hypothesis to take with a heavy grain of salt, as I do not pretend to have competences in the electrical engineering field: 

Could it be that:

  • a leakage current is finding its way between the two boxes (MC-3+ USB and Ref-10) in the absence of the Habst grounding cable through the common 'ground', which causes the timing signal (spread between the 'hot' and the 'ground') to be much less readable on the MC-3+ end ?
  • in the case of installations where the grounding has been particularly well done or when the MC-3+ USB have been transformed with a LPSU, this leakage current is not flowing there ?
  • in which case a simple trick à la @JohnSwenson like this one () could help solve the problem without resorting to expensive cables ?

Again, to take with reservations ;)

 

The second ground connection is also a mystery to me and @flkin, but we have experimented in 2 ways: 1) hot unplug the ground cable from the REF10 2) Turn off the output of REF10 that's connect to the ground plug. In both experiments, we found that without the ground plug connection, the degradation of sound was very apparent and easily heard. As for the SQ impact @flkin might have to chime in, since I was the one unplugging and turn-on/off the output with @flkin in the listening position. But from where, I am standing (in front of the equipments rack) the sound is easily distinguishable for connect/ not connected of the ground cable.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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16 hours ago, austinpop said:

Also, @flkin and @Kritpoon - as I read your write up, the other scenario I would ask you to try is to use the Antipodes with a partial SOtM stack like Eric & I did as indicated below. In all cases, with the Ref 10 clocking the tX and the MC-3+.

 

- Antipodes > tX-USBultra > MC-3+ > DAC.

 

How does this compare to:

 

- Antipodes > modded sMS-200 > tX-USBultra > MC-3+ > DAC

 

and

 

- Mac Mini > modded sMS-200 > tX-USBultra > MC-3+ > DAC?

 

In other words, does removing the modded sMS-200 from the chain improve or hurt the SQ?

 

This is your follow up homework! :P 

 

Hi Rajiv,

 

That's a very interesting test to do, I will discuss with @flkin of when and how we can do this. I also wanted to find out how much contribution is the modded SMS-200 is to the whole chain. Another interesting thing to test that I have been thinking is that since Antipodes DX is not REF clock optimized, it will be interesting to compare the Antipodes DX with the Trifecta (Stable) without REF clock input, meaning all equipment in its native clock form.

 

My thought is, if the sound is about equal between both set up, perhaps s-clkex board with REF clock input to replace  the Antipodes DX clocks. In this case, we could compare Mac Server+SMS-200(REF)+tx-USBUltra(Ref) with Antipodes DX (s-clkEX with REF). I will be a very interesting comparison, I think.

 

Perhaps SOTM will be willing to mod the Antipodes DX for me? LOL...

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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On 3/9/2018 at 1:16 AM, austinpop said:
Quote

Perhaps SOTM will be willing to mod the Antipodes DX for me? LOL...

 

Great idea. See what they say!

 

I havn't ask them yet, there are still some more experiments to try with flkin (per your suggestions), so once we are all done and can make some conclusion, perhaps the Antipodes with s-clkEX might not be neccessary :)

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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On 3/9/2018 at 3:29 AM, rickca said:

So you have modified the MC-3+ USB to use an external linear PS?

 

Yes, I did. I just took out the back IEC inlet and its connection to the meanwell switching power supply inside. I tried to remove the whole Meanwell PS, but was't successful so I just soldered the output of the LPS-1 to each of the legs of the Meanwell that's connected to the main board.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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14 hours ago, austinpop said:

Quick Take: Ref 10 vs. OP-14

 

I picked up @limniscate's Ref 10 yesterday, and after about 24 hours of warm-up in my system, Eric stopped by this afternoon for some listening. I had already cheated, and done some listening last night, after only a few hours of warmup.

 

I used a 50 Ω output (#1) from the Ref 10, and the same Cybershaft 50 Ω 0.5m cable for both clocks, feeding my tX-USBultra. We had no other cables on had hand to compare.

 

Well, I can only confirm what @flkin and @Kritpoon already reported. The Ref 10 is just another level above the OP-14. If you've heard the effect of a reference clock, this is just more of the same. As my teen daughter would jokingly say: "more clockular!" The best analogy is the focus of a camera lens. Going from the OP-14 to the Ref 10, instruments take on an even more realistic dimension, extremely fine details become easier to discern.

 

So Bangkok and Austin both agree - the Ref 10 outperforms the Cybershaft OP-14. No contest. Dang it! 

 

But at least this difference is consistent with the published phase noise specs (Ref 10 has lower phase noise) and price (Ref 10 is pricier). You get what you pay for!

 

 

 

Thank you for the report. Also, as I was discussing with @flkin beside the phase noise differences, the REF10 output square wave pattern but the Cybershft OP-14 output is sine wave pattern. I wonder if differences in wave form have any contribution to the differences in performance? or the sound signature of the clock itself?

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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6 hours ago, flkin said:

 

Thanks @austinpop for the above revisit. I agree that it shouldn't be used a a way to compare the SE and the DX3 as there are, due to the inherent complexity of the Trifecta systems, so many other variables like cables and power supplies at play here. 

 

In our tests with the Antipodes DX3, the sMS200 was powered by the sPS-500 (Cardas golden reference power chord) going through a 1A LT3045 chip via a Ghent DC cable prior and Uptone DC cable after the chip. And clocked by the Ref10 via the tX-USBultra

 

And this was the renderer we compared to the one built inside the DX3.

 

Pretty different from your setup ?

 

@flkin I didn't know you have that goodies connected between the SMS-500 and the SMS-200Ultra!

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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  • 1 month later...
On 4/17/2018 at 11:37 PM, Johnseye said:

Next we added the Cybershaft OP-14.  We went back to using my custom server and the Windows 10 PC was no longer used at all.  The OP-14 provided the master clock solely to the sCLK-EX housed in my server.  There was an immediate and noticeable improvement in SQ.  There was more bass, but the bass was very defined to the point of clarity where plucked bass strings were discerned not just blended in a boomy sound.  In fact all instruments were more defined creating an overall richness to the sound.

 @Johnseye @austinpop Hi... please help to clarify this set as I may have missed something. This setup with the OP-14 is feeding the ref clock signal to the Custom Server (Running Roon Core/Server) -->ehternet-->SMS-200Ultra-->USB-->tX-USBUltra-->USB--->DAC?

 

Or is it

 

Custom Server (Running Roon Core/Server) -->USB-->tX-USBUltra-->USB--->DAC?

 

I am curious for the improvment is SQ with ref clock in the chain on the server side has an immdiate impact on SQ in the chain vs normal server + ref clocked renderer.

 

Thanks.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

The OP-14 ref clock was connected to the sCLK-EX in my server.  That sCLK's taps were used for my motherboard system and LAN clocks as well as a tX-USBexp and tX-USBultra.  The OP-14 only has one output so we couldn't test it with the server and sMS simultaneously.  I don't think we used the OP-14 on the server when the sMS was in line.  Something we should have done.  Glad you brought it up.

 

Thanks for the information Johnseye, so in this particular set up (with Custom Server ref clocked) I assume the SMS-200Ultra was connected in the chain? and just not being ref clocked. 

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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  • 2 weeks later...
50 minutes ago, hieukm said:

 

Thank you for your prompt reply. I still dont get how to connect a BNC/phono to a ground connection. Why wont they use spade or some other plugs.

 

Connecting the ground plug to a free BNC slot on Ref 10 does not mean it is grounded? 

 

i have a Habst coming soon so if you dont mind mine questions.

 

 

 

@hieukmThe ground plug of the HABST I used it to connect to the other output of the REF10, being that output is ON. For if the output is OFF, I believed that output is terminated for any signals pass thru. Perhaps you could try the groundbox with one of the output of the REF10 instead of just the HABST ground cable? I believed it might yield a higher benefits.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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6 hours ago, austinpop said:

- Roy's cable's ground plug was broken, so I didn't ground this to anything. Looking at these Habst cables, it's a twisted pair of two fairly hefty gauge 5N cryo silver conductors. I'm guessing the silver alone jacks up the cost of these things. Oy!

 

Rajiv you are missing the magic of the HABST with the broken ground connector! our experiment with @flkin the ground plug makes quite a difference as flkin mentioned earlier. And for me, its the magic that make the HABST sounds so special!

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

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