A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Ralf11]

A thread on building an ultimate or near ultimate media server would be worthwhile (even If I personally just keep my mac mini...).

 

I want to partly disagree with another stmt above by modifying it: for "those of us who want to get the maximum performance with cost being no object, mass market products [often] aren't good enough."

 

I agree about the diminishing returns observation you made after that, but there is another issue - that a mass-market component might be quite good enough if, say, circuit topology is all-important and some quality of the component is unimportant.  I'm sure there are other examples.

[Ralf11]

my question is whether everyone should looking to upsample...

[Ralf11]

No, it's a real question.  One I hear discussed a bit here and elsewhere but not one I know the answer to.  OTOH, I am still moving my black monoliths around in the room...

 

Usually, when I hear something in audio is a matter of taste, I expect there to be several or more different factors involved in the SQ, and some factors are weighted more by some people; other factros weighted higher by other people.

[Ralf11]

I'm a dreamer, not a streamer so only check this lengthy thread sporadically, but confirmation bias is a problem for "people who trust their ears" to the extent they don't control for confirmation bias.

 

I am fine with "people who are willing to share their listening impressions" without any controls, and have asked several people do so on various pieces of equipment.  But it is a type of information that has to be accorded less weight than a valid listening test, with controls and statistical tests.

 

** NOTE: None of the above requires instruments to quantify any aspect of the sound.  Nor is a mechainsitic theory required ot explain anything either. 

[Ralf11]

I am interested in why the path a clock takes to its target is important...

 

 

[Ralf11]

Thx, I am fairly discrete

 

 

 

but am happy to use integrated designs when appropriate.

[Ralf11]

yes,   also - I felt a need for some punnery today

[Ralf11]

15 hours ago, flkin said:

 

I don't think anyone into Apple/iTunes for serious listening will be following this thread. ...

 

I am following this thread.  And I am a dreamer, not a streamer...

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, Cornan said:

... a listening report based on statistics is not trustable. My high school statistics teacher taught me that there is three lies. Statistics, statistics and damn statistics! ?

 

may I suggest a few university courses in statistics??

[Ralf11]

doesn't sound like a 2.4k could have been undersized - any ideas KingRex?

[Ralf11]

15 hours ago, KingRex said:

... I have developed a belief that power conditioning is best not used, unless absolutly necessary.  I need it.  I have dirty power at my house.  

 

...

 

You were following my thread on having the electric co. come out and test my house's electricity...

 

They can only test up to 3 KHz so I am still wondering if I have dirty power.

 

I am also close to getting rid of all wall warts in my main system, so I am wondering what to do re isolation transformers, or balanced power supplies, etc.

 

If you know of any way to test LMK !

[Ralf11]

12 hours ago, sandyk said:

I [] know of only one Audiophile who has felt the need for Isolation transformers etc. and he lived in a large block of apartments with lifts etc.

 It [may] mainly depend on where you live, [and] mainly suburban  areas with no nearby industrial facilities less likely to need them.

 

Perhaps the widespread use of RF/EMI  prone USB Audio by many C.A. members, as well as the growing number of SMPS plugpacks etc. has led to [] far [greater usage] than in earlier years ?

 

How many people needed to use AC isolation transformers with analog audio, including Tape decks, high quality cassette recorders and Vinyl  ? How many need to use them with Valve amplifiers and Vinyl, even now ?

 

[It would be ironic] if it turns out that digital, which is supposedly far more resistant to [these] things, turned out to be more easily affected by this kind of problem than Analog ?

 

very important questions; I edited out the Brit spellings and shortened some sentences for more impact...

emphasis added to highlight the usual suspects

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

Just an FYI - some of us should have already read these posts by @romaz and IMHO they're great for explaining why system clocks do make a difference

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-196#post-14103668

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-199#post-14107124

 

The parts about USB cables as well as ZENith SE versus laptop were so interesting. An SMPS inside Blu Mk. 2 or DAVE might not really "hurt" the M-Scaler or the DAC itself but even Rob Watts agreed that other components were still affected. No wonder some of us would prefer a linear rather switching PSU as the "energizers" of either LPS-1 or LPS-1.2.

 

We've got so many different ways to reduce / eliminate all that noise while sometimes we could have prevented that to be generated in the first place. SOtM is well known for their filtering while both sCLK-EX and 10MHz master clock are great for replacing noisy clocks. Of course the weakest link inside sCLK-EX should be those 50Ω RF cables that are terminated with tiny little U.FL connectors. We just don't have (much) better choices unless we're willing to cut those expensive 50Ω clock cables up before they're reterminated.

 

Speaking of clock cables, 75Ω ones that are designed for 12G-SDI / 4K UHD should have lower signal attenuation (loss) even though Belden and Canare etc. are pricing those products so competitively. Of course their best models 4731R and L-8CHD should work even better than the rest but we'll have to make an effort to acquire them. BTW, it would be interesting to try those 4K UHD media patch cords such as Belden AV2183R but so far none of us seemed to be interested.

 

Thankfully 3M EMI/RFI absorbers don't cost that much and they could be useful for the mitigation of noise. Similar stuff called PULSHUT and PULSHUT MU are also available from the DAC chips maker Asahi Kasei. We could find them inside Oppo BDP-105DJP, an audio PC called ADIVA from Abee and Onkyo, or even HDMI / LAN / USB cables from AIM Electronics. Acoustic Revive also added something else called FINEMET (from Hitachi) to their products for suppressing the noise, of course we could also find some FINEMET beads and sheets on Amazon or Rakuten ourselves. Some audiophiles already quite a few positive reviews on Amazon etc. Even transformers could be made from FINEMET, we could get them from Noguchi, Samizu Acoustics, and Teramoto etc.

 

Electrolytic filter caps from Mundorf etc. are found inside some products from Innuos and they're designed by Sean Jacobs of Custom HiFi Cables. Innuos actually tested dozens of motherboards by measuring the noise patterns with a very detailed oscilloscope. Isolation transformers could be found on those Ethernet ports of Supermicro X10SBA-L but not sure if they're customized / modified etc.

 

Regarding Ethernet cables and connectors, M12 should work much better than RJ45 in terms of EMI/RFI shielding

 

 

 

Let's see who's gonna be the first one who would like to give M12 a shot by sending that kinda switch to SOtM.

 

that's when an asynchronous USB transfer protocol is used

 

what happens if something other than USB is used, like TOSLINK for example?

 

also, romaz didn't describe the sound - what does it sound like when a better system clock is used?  

[Ralf11]

Yes, attention to acoustics will usually be more rewarding than attention to electronics (at least, initially).  But be carefull with the rel's -- they may burst into flames, as happened to @wgscott

[Ralf11]

Thanks for posting that writeup, John (and for hosting the listening test, which is helpful to others not there as well - I hope you got some free beer or wine...)

 

The Cybershaft OP-14 is Rubidium based, is that right?

[Ralf11]

I agree - it isn't much (even if they pay retail or unit sample prices).  And adding that to your advertising might be very helpful...

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

...

More importantly, how do we actually determine what system clocks are present throughout an entire music server (and identify each frequency) without sending everything to SOtM? Even stuff like SSDs and optical drives etc. have their own system clocks when we crack them opened. 

 

That is the crux of the bisquit...

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, soares said:

Have your Oppo 205 moded or buy an ultrarendu + an Sbooster. The sound of your system will probably improve a lot. At least it did in mine. I am currently using an i5 transporter + ultrarendu & Sbooster + an Oppo 205 as Dac. I am planning to buy a qutest and most probably to upgrade my Oppo (internal LPS + clock). Cheers. J.

 

what interface are you using for the Oppo-205?  is it USB?  if so, is there any isolation going into the 205?

[Ralf11]

On 5/19/2018 at 9:19 AM, austinpop said:

... [better than one]... that involves 100s of mm of cable, not to mention a reference clocked, frequency-synthesized, clock generator.

 

...

 

 

this translates to a good fraction of a meter of cable, am I reading it correctly?  (or is it meant to be 100 ms or ns worth of cable run)

 

if the former, it reminds me of a comment by Charles Hanson, or barrows (or both) re the benefits of ... um "keeping the clock close"

[Ralf11]

That's Hedley Lamarr !

[Ralf11]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

proper buffering/reclocking effectively walls off upstream jitter

 

 

that could be your sig.

[Ralf11]

Johnseye:  "...The bottom line is that the DAC and upsampling has had the biggest impact.  ..."

 

Thanks for the report - not surprising, I guess.  

 

I missed whether you did the other things after the DAC/sampling upgrades, but assume you did.

 

Can you characterize the effects of cable shielding as to magnitude and types of SQ differences?

 

Also sorry to hear you are MBAing into manglement...

[Ralf11]

Thx John - always interesting, despite my non-streaming, boxed setup.

 

 

re: heat shrink - there is a heat shrinkable tape made that allows you to avoid the sheath layout for already assembled things; I have not had easy to use results tho (non-audio uses)

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

I've found these two characteristics are consistent when doing any emi and RF shielding. Apparently those things impact imaging and bass primarily. 

...

 

 

The Borg has assimilated your observations.

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

Just wait for the new RF-SoC/Ultrascale devices though ... now we would be talking.

 

 

Finally!  I can run my phased array radar system without stuff breaking down all the time ‼️