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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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On 1/2/2017 at 2:49 AM, austinpop said:

b Roon inside the DX is to have Roon Core talk to Roon Ready directly. Think of this scenario as Roon playing out the server-c

 

I'd like to thank everyone on here, especially @romaz and @austinpop, for sharing so much useful knowledge. 

 

I'm very late to this party - I recently bridged my RasPi with Allo DigiOne to my main media PC, which is feeding a Chord 2Qute, LFD LE V amp and Kudos X2's as well as a headphone rig comprised of a Schiit Audio Lyr 2 driving beyerdynamic DT 1770 Pro headphones. Sadly my power conditioning is limited, with a simple Furman strip (though I love my cheap ifi iPower PS for the RasPi!). 

 

I'm thrilled with the results provided by this simple and cheap tweak (cost = $50 for a new NIC). 

 

I guess I need to start saving so I can build a low-power media server with the SOTM SCLK-EX connected to one of their USB cards! And an isolation transformer! And a few nice linear power supplies for upstream components! And new speakers! And (eventually) a new DAC! ? Or maybe I should learn how to build everything myself?!?

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Mark62 said:

 

I didn't mean to imply that it was "known" why bridging is claimed to help - that's why I called it a "theory".  As far as what it is, until someone has a more clear idea on "why" what some folks heard helps - then we're just chasing after ghosts in hope of finding something better.  Net, I'll wait and see instead of trying more w/bridging or swapping out other gear.

 

Right now, I am thrilled with the improvement an ultraRendu gave my system with it and the PC running of a switch.

 

About the only thing I might do different at this point is use a different power supply on my switch.  I heard an improvement on my DAC updating its power supply, but I didn't hear any difference with the ultraRendu between an uptone LPS-1 and Small Green Computer's own power supply.  Who knows if I will hear a difference w/one on my switch but worth trying.

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark - I'm mostly a lurker that implements cost-effective versions of suggestions presented on this forum to improve my system. I have indeed noticed substantial improvements as a result of some of the changes suggested here. My two cents with respect to your situation are as follows:

  1. Figuring out "why" making a change causes an improvement is great, but not necessary... I, for one, want the sound improvement more than I want to know why I got that improvement in the first place...  
  2. An important assumption here is that you have to be able to trust your ears so you can assess the size of the improvement... we can't measure everything... all we can do is try what others suggest and see if it makes things better or worse
  3. Sometimes a change highlights other deficiencies. I recently bridged my PC to my Allo Digi One, changed the connection speed to 100MBPS half duplex, and JSSG360 my BNC cable feeding my Chord 2qute from the Allo Digi One. The result was thrilling - a lot more definition and heft across all frequencies, a darker background, and improved dynamics. However, the sound became much "harsher" in the high frequencies. I have no clue why, but I suspect the Chord's switch mode power supply, the Allo's iFi iPower, and the source computer's switching mode power supply are contributing to this. I could try grounding all the switch mode supplies, but I'd rather just install some decent LPSUs. Since I'm poor, I plan on building a few Sigma 11 PSUs from AMB instead of purchasing more expensive units. I also plan on implementing an AudioLinux based server solution after that (see posts from Roy and Larry). One improvement begets another area for improvement. The work never ends. And I'm grateful for that.
  4. Don't give up easily! The struggle is the fun part - it is where we learn the most. I would fiddle with different connection speeds for the bridge. I would also ensure you have the latest LAN drivers for your NICs installed. Sometimes doing basic blocking and tackling can solve problems.

I wish you success in your bridging quest!

 

Nikhil

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  • 3 weeks later...
1 hour ago, novaca said:

Full of praise for Audiolinux and NUC here.
Has anyone compared Audiolinux with wtfplay?
Yes, the fundamental difference in features but pure sound quality?

 

Also, I can not find a direct comparison of NUC vs PC (based on Supermicro X10SBA motherboard - powering 12V + ATX) with the same OS. For use like NAA or single computer (non-upsampling).
Is NUC really better (as I have understood from this long thread)?

 

Roy and Larry's findings seem to imply:

 

1. More cores are better

2. Linear power supplies are better (and PH Dual Regulation is the best)

 

So, I'd venture to guess the answer to your question is... it depends on the processor! So, from what I've read so far, I'd rather have a low power i3 or i5 NUC passively cooled powered by one linear power supply than shelling out the extra $ for a low power mini-itx board that requires 2 power supplies. At least on the renderer side. 

 

It's too bad that we can't just get a great one-box server / renderer solution. That truly is the holy grail.

 

It, though, is impossible to fault Roy, Larry, and the rest of the pioneers on this thread. How many thousands of dollars and hours have they spent for our benefit?  I'm still trying to DIY a decent linear power supply (working on a sigma 11 over here)! 

 

 

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Hi Everyone - Are there any other line-command tweaks I should be applying to fully optimize Audiolinux headless? Or is stock "extreme" mode good enough?

 

I got AudioLinux headless up and running after using the GUI version for the last few weeks. As I don't have a LPSU powering my Brix (yet). There is definitely an improvement over the GUI version. I'm booting into "extreme" mode. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

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39 minutes ago, taipan254 said:

Hi Everyone - Are there any other line-command tweaks I should be applying to fully optimize Audiolinux headless? Or is stock "extreme" mode good enough?

 

I got AudioLinux headless up and running after using the GUI version for the last few weeks. As I don't have a LPSU powering my Brix (yet). There is definitely an improvement over the GUI version. I'm booting into "extreme" mode. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Apologies on this question - I just loaded the filesystem into ram, and there's another big improvement. 

 

So AudiolinuxEXTREME loading into RAM via ramroot command. 

 

Any other line-command tweaks? 

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1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Yes, you are right of course. Still not sure what impact an external USB card would have on the current (amperage) budget.

 

I have to say that the sound quality is so amazing I'm not sure anything more is necessary. When I said end game. I'm not kidding.

 

You guys are suffering from premature optimization.  Never good. Get your hands on a NUC and have a listen. ;)

 

The more I listen, the more I think Audiolinux booted from RAM is just a whole new league from what I've experienced with the Allo Digi One bridged... and I'm still using a SMPS for the Brix running Audiolinux (and so is my DAC... and the ISO Regen feeding it as well)... I have a long way to go, but RAM booting headless Audiolinux is equivalent in my eyes to the impact of network bridging.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, bobfa said:

I love EARLY SUCCESS so I thought I would share:

 

I am waiting for the new generation NUC board and fanless case to arrive to build and compare to my UltraRendu.  I have NUC7i7BNH that I have run as a Roon ROCK server in the past.  It is now running Windows but not in daily use.  So I "borrowed" the external monitor one of the laptops,... (yes I told my wife)

 

The Process:

 

1. I fully updated machine; both Windows and BIOS to get the machine stable.  

2. Downloaded my headless license of AL.

3. Used Etcher to burn the image to a 64Gb USB stick

4. Booted machine and it did not work; it booted to Windows???

5. Enabled UFEI in the BIOS... Silly me

6. Booted to AL and it came up to the AL menu nicely.  (4K 23in display is OVERKILL)

7. Used the  menu in v8 of AL to turn on Roon bridge

8. Enabled the analog output of the machine in Roon

9.  Plugged in my HD-6xx headphones and played music!

 

A few notes:

  • I am running the headless OS, but I have a display and keyboard on it for now. They work fine.  
  • When running Windows, the fan runs a lot more and the NUC is "hot".    
  • This NUC may end up as part of my testing to be the ROON core for testing.  
  • Now the fun and the learning begin.

Sound:

 

I have only listened for about 1 min, but I think that I have never heard a headphone jack on a PC sound that good. It was quiet in the background.  --  I had no expectation bias!  I did not expect it to work at all; yet.  

 

Next steps:

  • setup remote headless operation
  • test shutdown/reboot/back and forth to windows
  • learn how to RAMBOOT
  • Do some listening:  Hook up to my Lyr 3 with multi-bit DAC...
  • Think about some optimization
  • test in the main system A/B to UltraRendu. (low expectations here the NUC is bog standard with fan and factory SMPS)

 

Bob

Ramroot is really the value-add step IMO. 

 

It is very easy to set up - I have complete confidence you'll get it up and running in no time, especially since you've gotten this far! 

 

Good luck. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...
7 minutes ago, cool_chris said:

Sadly it is reality.

no one is interesed here what someone thinks .

only reality and proven tests / mods.

Science.

Please see below

 

 

Actually many folks here rely far more on their ears than measurements. You'll notice no measurements have been provided supporting many of the claims made on this forum. What counts is whether or not, once you test a claim, you agree or disagree with the OP (e.g., @romaz, @austinpop, or @lmitche). 

 

That being said, I've definitely purchased what I thought was an amazing piece of equipment only to realize music quality decreased once I added it to the chain. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
7 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

OH yes, if you do use SD DACs as most are, the DSD do sound better than PCM overall. It is probably only worth doing original PCM recordings if you use a R2R Ladder DAC like I have. 

 

I find the type of DAC used determines whether upsampling is beneficial as well. For instance, my Chord 2qute sounds much better with native PCM than upsampled PCM or DSD. 

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  • 1 month later...
  • 4 months later...

Thanks @romaz for another kick ass post! If you have the time, I'd love to get your perspectives on the below questions:

 

  1. Have you tried tweaking the RAM refresh settings per Emile's discussion on the SGM "Creme de la Creme" thread @ whatsbestforum.com? If not, why? I figure that kind of adventure is something you'd like to try! And truthfully, I would have bet that would have been your first question to Emile knowing only what I know about you from this forum (i.e., you are a hyper-sophisticated listener and system builder that has spent significant and precious time and treasure tweaking your system. Plus, modifying refresh cycles is a novel idea!). His comment on that thread of "shaping the EMI / RFI" via RAM refresh settings really struck a chord with me (pun completely intended). I'd love to get any thoughts you have on this.
  2. Did the below quote make sense to you? Because it didn't to me... If you reduce your active processing times, baseline power consumption goes up (makes sense - you feed the CPU and RAM more power to do work faster)... Yet power draw does not vary much? Wouldn't power draw go up and then down? Just wondering if you could unpack this for me! What am I getting wrong / missing?
    16 hours ago, romaz said:

    What you really want to do is reduce your hardware active processing times as much as possible. The net effect is much like a class A amplifier, you have a higher baseline power consumption, but power draw does not vary much, and this is very good for a more “natural/relaxed” sound. I hope this makes sense

     

  3. Have your perspectives on storage changed? In particular, have you tried loading the OS and Music on boards similar to the ASUS Hyper M.2 x16 3.0x4 board(s) Emile uses? I know NVME storage has been discussed at length here, but a solution that allows one to get the bandwidth and low latency of a PCIe x16 lane and the storage capacity of a very large HD seems new (unless I missed something, which given the massive length of this thread is not unlikely). 
  4. Apart from aesthetics, is there any downside in using a regular ATX case with passive heatsinks, as opposed to heatsinks that are built into the chassis? Something like this, for example, could, in theory, cool a higher TDP processor (especially if underclocked / "tuned" to a certain frequency) while allowing you to build in an ATX form factor. It doesn't look as cool as a Streacom case, but it would get the job done. Why limit yourself to a smaller form factor if you don't have to? 

As a comment, I think Emile's explanation for why 2 DIMMs may sound worse than 1 DIMM is extremely elegant and strikes me as intuitively sensible. Very very cool progress in understanding in this thread. Awesome stuff. I really love this thread.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, shahed99 said:

 

There are primarily two reasons for using passive cooling: i) noise and ii) resonance/vibration induced by moving parts. These days there are silent fans (Magnetic Levitation Cooling Fan) available that are practically inaudible. However, the fact still remains that those are moving parts that causes vibration/resonance on the motherboard, which is not good for sound.

 

Just a point of clarification - I asked Roy why he doesn't use a regular CPU case with a passive heatsink. One can achieve

the same, well-known benefits you describe above, @shahed99, including 120W TDP compatibility, and use a full ATX motherboard. As you know, passive heatsinks do not have any fans / moving parts / noisy motors. 

 

I bring this up because Roy was lamenting using uATX boards simply for case and cooling compatibility. 

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  • 1 month later...

Here's what I know regarding storage... Extreme has low-latency storage in the form of PCI-E mounted NVMe. That specific ASUS board in extreme from Asus Emile uses supports Intel vROC... 

 

 

 

The biggest advantage of Intel® VROC is the ability to directly connect NVMe-based SSDs to the new Intel® Xeon® Scalable processor PCIe* lanes, then make RAID arrays using those SSDs without using a RAID host bus adapter (HBA). As a result, Intel® VROC unleashes NVMe SSD performance potential without the complexity and power of a traditional hardware RAID HBA. In this way, Intel® VROC was designed specifically for NVMe SSDs, and is positioned to appropriately support this technology and help transition the market to these faster drives.I personally am disappointed that it takes 24k euro to get the most out of roon. 

 

Don't know vroc is enabled or not but the above is what I've read. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
7 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Sorry, maybe I'm amazon illterate - how much does this battery cost??? It is not available. 

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  • 1 year later...
  • 1 year later...
7 hours ago, lmitche said:

People say bad things come in threes. Sometimes good things come in threes as well. This fall, three long anticipated technology upgrades became available:

  • Audiolinux support for custom kernels was extended to include ZEN4 specific builds
  • Next generation PCIE5 NVME drives capable of write speeds of 9,500 MB/s and 1400K, Teamgroup Z5 is used here
  • New 500 watt DC-ATX power supply from Hdplex replacing the prior 400 watt model

 

On my AMD ZEN4 build, individually each of these upgrades bring significant sound quality enhancement with improved transparency and a lower noise floor.

  • Support for the ZEN4 micro-architecture on Audiolinux reduces CPU power consumption over the default kernel by 10% as measured by turbostat. Likewise, the reduced volatility of current demand is audible.
  • The faster service times associated with the PCIE5 NVME drive reduces the length of time for the frequent and bursty write operations from music players during playback by a factor of three over PCIE3 drives. This shortens the noise window from these operations and is audible.
  • The new HDPLEX 500W HiFi DC-ATX brings an immediately noticeable drop in the noise floor with SQ that further improves over the next 48 hour period as it opens up. It also accommodates power sources in a wider voltage range of 12V-48VDC enabling use with the unregulated power supplies favored by so many here.

 

In combination these components move sound quality to a new level revealing new details and clarity across musical genres. Highly recommended!

 

 

Thanks Larry for the update. 
 

A few questions if you don’t mind: what music player have you been using? Also are you going USB direct to the DAC?

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