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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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Going back to Romaz's original suggestion of direct connection via Ethernet, this got me thinking. In my set up the PC is over 6 metres away from the microRendu. Without going into too much detail, the room is perfectly set up (with hard wired Ethernet) for running a mR in the traditional way, that is computer/router/switch/mR. To be honest, whilst I am tempted by the possible sound quality benefits, this is not really an option for me, it's just not practical. However, this did make me think of the Sonic Transporter. Maybe they could make a derivative of this suitable for direct connection? As things stand the Sonic Transporter only has a single Ethernet port, so is not suitable. Maybe there is another product out there that could be configured to optimise this approach? Just a thought! If the sound quality benefits are that apparent, then there could be a market for a properly optimised custom made product.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 3 weeks later...
One interesting thing to note is that old switches tend to sound better than new ones. Modern switch chips tend to turn off most of the circuitry in between packets, this produces large transients on the power/ground planes. The old chips were designed in an era where going for low power was not the highest priority in the chip design, thus they usually do not generate nearly as much PG noise as newer designs.

 

I'm running my microRendu from an old 100Mb switch that is at least 10 years old and has a linear power supply, with this driving the microRendu I don't seem to have much of the issues all of you are having with different cables etc.

 

(Uh Oh, I think I just started a buying frenzy for old switches on ebay)

John S.

Ha! This worked for me. I immediately went on to ebay to buy a nice 10 year old switch, then realised I had no clue how to tell the difference between an overpriced second hand switch that had nasty modern switching anyway, and a lovely retro one per your description. How could you possibly tell? (short of a comprehensive list of model numbers?)

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 2 months later...

@austinpop - My apologies if I have missed the details somewhere (this is a long thread now!), but what exactly is the mod to the Zyxel GS108b V3 switch that you mention?  Are there any details of this posted elsewhere?

 

I have some interest in your good results.  Recently I have been trying the Aqvox switch, and to be honest I have been a little disappointed with it.  Maybe it offered some tiny improvements, but I wasn't 100% convinced that it was not adding some tiny negatives also.  So disappointing.

 

I notice that JCat are now selling a modified switch with TCXO clock, is this a similar concept to what you have been trying?

 

http://jplay.eu/jcat/

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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10 hours ago, romaz said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if those who have invested heavily in an Aurender W20, Baetis Reference, Antipodes DX, Lumin U1, TotalDac Server or Sound Galleries SGM2015 find that adding an ISO Regen or tX-USBUltra to their single box server results in further significant improvement.

Very possible, depending on DAC and so on.  I do have some experience here, I have listened to both the Aurender N10 and W20 with a Devialet D800.  With both Aurenders, better sound quality was obtained using the Aurender's AES/EBU output, rather than USB.  The most apparent difference was with bass definition and accuracy, which was clearly better via AES/EBU.  I suspect this might be related to leakage loops or similar, and indeed, this observation probably says more about the Devialet's USB implementation than it does about the Aurender.  So yes, taking it all as a system, I am sure in some set-ups an improvement could be found.  As for the extra clocking, I think more information is needed, although you guys appear to be gaining information by the day, so it will be interesting to see where this all goes.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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This may be the stupid post of the day, but there is a thought in my head and I'm just going to ask the question.  There is much talk of utilising the four clocks in the sCLK-EX.  I get this.  My question is could you utilise one clock tap to two or more devices?  If this works, it would obviously put the two devices fed into perfect sync, but is it possible.  Maybe it's undesirable for some reason if it would work?

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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4 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Not a stupid question.  On some motherboards that have dual NIC cards (which each have their own clock), I have wondered whether I could use one clock for both.  I'm not sure what the answer is and whether it makes sense to do so.  It will be one of the questions I will be asking SOtM this weekend.

Excellent.  I hope you get some useful answers!

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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1 hour ago, mozes said:

All the best Roy, thanks for your great contributions, you will be missed for sure!

It's a +1 from me too!  The many posts from romaz (and others!) have proved an absolute gold mine for ideas, information and have given me much clarity of thought for my own moves going forward.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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@austinpop Good luck with all this! I will enjoy reading about you exploits and findings.  I have to admit that my initial thinking was perhaps similar to @greanleo when reading your kit list.  Now that you have the DX-USB Ultra in the chain, I would be interested in the results with and without the tX-USBultra.  I would see this along the lines of you finding the absolute optimum set-up with all the options available, then establishing the delta reduction, if any, if the tX-USBultra is removed.  I think the logic here is simplifying the set up, and indeed seeing the influence of the removal of one of the more expensive components in the chain.  Just curious!  In fairness, I can see that you consider that the tX-USBultra has already proven it's worth, and the driver here is to add more clocked devices to the chain, not remove them, so essentially this goes back to how I started this post, I will follow all this with much interest, and good luck!

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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5 hours ago, austinpop said:

2-day Ultra-vaganza Report

 

I did have a few questions for you austinpop.....   However, reading this you have answered more questions than I even knew I had.  Great stuff!

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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Just to say I would like to offer continued kudos to those contributing to this thread, fascinating stuff so far and it looks like there will be many more gems of information to come.

 

I am following all this with a tentative aim of jumping in myself at some stage, but to be honest at the moment I am more than happy to be an interested observer in the short term to see what transpires.

 

I do have one thought that I would be interested to see if anyone has any comments on.  Currently I am using a microRendu to a Mutec MC3+USB.  However, I can easily imagine an upgrade to a 'clocking train', such as modified switch, sMS-200Ultra, maybe tX-USBUltra, and indeed the ultimate addition of the Mutec Ref10.  My question relates to my current Mutec MC3+USB.  I know the Mutec works well with my current 'DAC' (Devialet ADH), quite simply the Devialet sounds best to me via AES/EBU and the Mutec appears to have a great synergy when used with a Devialet.  Now, many of the 'clock chains' tested so far have used the Singxer SU1.  No criticism here, I understand the Singxer is a great device.  That said, it occurs to me that the Mutec MC3+USB might be a good choice in a set up including the Mutec REF10.  Indeed, the REF10, amongst other things, is specifically designed to provide the reference clock for a Mutec MC3+USB.  I know I am jumping ahead a little now as nobody has actually got there hands on a REF10 yet.  I guess I am just posting my current thoughts with respect to what I may or may not do later.  Any thoughts?

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 14/08/2017 at 1:45 AM, austinpop said:

 

My dilemma right now is that I am really concerned that my tX-USBultra driving my Codex is at the very edge of the LPS-1's capacity. It runs blazing hot, yet the LED stays green. I also had a failure in the LPS-1 that was driving it, which @Superdad of course replaced in exemplary time. Now - this could have just been a random failure - so please do not read too much into this. I was wondering if the sPS-500 may be the answer here, but now @romaz's comments give me pause.

 

Much to think about.

As a reference, how hot is 'blazing hot'?   My LPS-1 runs pretty hot, but has been doing so for about a year now with 100% reliability.  It's been running 24/7.  Could you hold your hand on yours for a minute or so without burning?  With mine, no hand burning, but it does feel like it is slowly cooking and tenderising nicely! 

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@fibonacci1618  I cannot answer all of your questions, but I can advise that there is one additional piece of information from yourself that would be useful in accurately answering this one.  Can you advise what the sMS-200Ultra will be feeding?  This is an important point because if the USB input of whatever you are using draws current from the 5v USB feed, then this could easily push you over the current limit for the LPS-1.

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There have been one or two recent posts here that have picked up on the question of how a modified switch with clock feed can improve sound quality in a system where Ethernet packet data is effectively buffered prior to being converted to a data stream.  @simonklp questions were specifically related to HQPlayer, which is fair enough, but I believe that in principle this question relates to most common streaming protocols.  (I know there are some exceptions in pro audio)  Of course, it is easy to use basic knowledge of packet data and buffering to simply dismiss everything that may be happening here.  However, I would far prefer to think that the experience and efforts of those reporting the improvements from the modified switch suggest strongly that there may be something very real happening here.  Indeed, I have followed this thread quite closely and it seams to me that that the modified switch has been one of the 'stars of the show', a simple thing that has offered a surprising result.  In fact, 'surprising' might be the key word here.  Most experienced audiophiles will be all too familiar with the problems surrounding expectation bias, confirmation bias and so on, but here we have one thing that perhaps nobody expected to yield an improvement, and yet we have now had multiple results that it has done just that.  So having said that it is easy to dismiss this stuff, I would say the more interesting challenge is to try to understand how this works and why this may be a very real working phenomenon.  I know there has been some speculation, but the real answer could of course be something quite unexpected.  I recall reading that at least one member of this forum has a tentative plan to bench test the 'clock chain' theory, this could be a very interesting enterprise indeed.  If anyone tries this I would like to wish them the very best of luck finding something new and interesting, which would certainly be far more interesting than simple debunks ignoring an increasing body of evidence.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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19 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

That said, I do want to ask that discussion of "how this works" and "why this works" be spawned off on a new thread. In fact, I seem to remember someone doing that early on, for precisely this topic. If you can find that thread, it would be the perfect place for this discussion.

 

This current thread is firmly rooted in empirical findings based on listening impressions. Clearly, it has proven helpful and beneficial to many. I would like to keep it that way. I want people to report what they hear, without being asked to prove it at every step.

 

I know this isn't what you intended, @Confused, so this isn't a knock on you at all. I just used your post to make a larger point. There is an unfortunate trend on CA at the moment of threads getting derailed by "deniers." As OP-designate, I have the right, according to Chris, to declare a topic to be for listening impressions only.

 

I so declare for this thread!

Worry not, I can take a knock or two!  That said, I do like the logic of having this thread to cover the experimentation and listening impressions, with any 'other stuff' diverted into it's own thread.  Makes perfect sense to me.  I have tentative plans to try something SOtM 'clock chain' related myself (& maybe Mutec REF10 related), but this plan is on hold for a couple of months, as I am waiting for details of Devialet's new 'OS Core Intelligence' streamer board.  (I have a Devialet 1000 Pro)  So I am keen that this thread remains 'un-derailed' for as long as possible!:)  Meanwhile, I shall be a very interested observer.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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On 29/08/2017 at 9:03 PM, Lebouwsky said:

Change your name from Confused to Open Minded please. Cheers

Ummmm.  I am not entirely sure that changing my name from 'Confused' to 'Open Minded' on a forum populated (presumably) by mainly middle aged men would consistently yield the results the I am after.  So I will stick to being Confused thanks.  (It's allegedly ironic, although opinions may differ on this)  I get the sentiment though, for which I am grateful.  Open minded is good!  Far more fun than closed minded I would say.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 2 weeks later...
50 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

YES, the grounding on the negative of the supply feeding the switch shunts the high impedance leakage coming from the network. So if using an LPS-1 you must ground the OUTPUT so the negative going into the switch is properly grounded.

 

John S.

I have to admit I am not 100% clear as to which output this refers to.  Let’s say I can interpret this in a couple of different ways.  Would it be too much to ask for a sketch, diagram or maybe photograph to make sure this is clear?  

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 2 weeks later...
4 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I like their approach.  It's the same thing we've been discussing here as we build similar devices like this ourselves.  What's the cost?

Agreed.  There seams to be universally good reports regarding the SQ of Antipodes products.  Which makes me wonder how the Antipodes Edge with a fairly standard PC would compare to either the DX Gen 3 or of course the Trifecta.  The Edge being essentially a network 'end point' is certainly a lot cheaper than the DX Gen 3. 

http://antipodesaudio.com/edge.html

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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9 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Observationally, I and many others have found that the even with a modded switch and sMS-200ultra, the tX-USBultra adds another quantum of SQ. I'm not sure if that is a function of the relative quality of their respective USB interfaces, or an effect of clock chaining. 

 

Based on quite a few user reports this statement would appear to be true.  That said, I do remain puzzled by the tX-USBultra.  Reading the blurb on SOtM's website I cannot actually work out what it is supposed to be doing.  OK, it has the sCLK-EX super clock, but as most people are feeding with a sMS-200Ultra, which has the same clock, this cannot be the absolute key to why it is improving things.  To put this into perspective, one user on this very forum reported good results placing a tX-USBultra between a sMS-200Ultra and a Mutec MC3+USB, with the whole lot fed by a Mutec REF10 reference clock signal.  I am not doubting that the tX-USBultra is adding something here, I am just simply utterly baffled as to why this can be!  Indeed, @austinpop, I am quoting your post here, but reading your words I think you are more or less saying the same thing as I am.  That is, many find that the tX-USBultra works, but also many of us seam unsure as to exactly why this should be.  Can anyone offer some insight into this?  There is perhaps another way of putting this, the sMS-200ultra is gaining a mighty fine reputation as a standalone endpoint, but what exactly is amiss with the sMS-200ultra's output that it needs a tX-USBultra to fix it?

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2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

 

My expectation is that we will never know the truth about this. LOL!

I fear that this may indeed be the ultimate truth of the matter.....    :(

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19 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I think Larry is making a very perceptive point here.

 

Surely we can all agree that for a given component of sufficient quality, while improving the clock can make a huge difference, it's sound quality is not merely determined by the clock. Power supply quality matters. Regulators and capacitor quality matters. Ultimately, it's the system as a whole that determines SQ.

 

Now when it come to USB, it's not hard to see how the above applies. Even SOtM claim a hierarchy of USB cards in their portfolio. The tX-USBultra is basically a tX-USBhubEX and sCLK-EX board, repackaged in an Ultra chassis. I suspect the USB interface of the sMS-200 is more generic. So I don't find it that hard to understand that the tX-USBultra improves on the output of the sMS-200ultra.

 

What I do find intriguing is @mozes's observations with 2 cascaded tX-USBultra's. Clearly there is something more going on.

Just catching up with the responses to my question yesterday, many thanks to @Moses @austinpop and others, it has certainly clarified my thoughts re the tXUSBUltra.  It is interesting to think that my thoughts re the tXUSBUltra were in fact very negative based on what could be read on SOtM's website, a case of SOtM writing lots of listening impressions type blurb (so telling you what to expect to hear if you buy one) but very little in the way of technical explanation as to why it can produce such results.  There appears to be far more technical information in the heads of contributors to this thread than SOtM seams to deem worthy of including on there website.

 

I too am very intrigued by Moses' observations, I do wonder if we will get to fully understand what is happening, but it does look like the subjective evidence is mounting here.  The report from Moses does remind me of some of the stuff that was being reported a while back from those stacking Mutec MC3's, which I guess is very similar in principle in terms of 'clock chaining'.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 1 month later...

@austinpop first to say many thanks for your recent 'Review of the Innuos Zenith MkII SE' post.  A good read and very interesting.  Your efforts sharing this are appreciated.

 

The post did leave a question in my mind.  You make it very clear that the performance of the Innuos was enhanced by adding the clocked tX-USBultra in the chain, this I understand, and by itself is an interesting observation.  

 

It does beg the question though, how does the modded switch + sMS-200 + tX-USBultra compare to the Innous on it's own, without the help of the tX-USBultra?  Consider this to be a 'spaghetti' versus 'elegant' solution head to head.

 

Any thoughts?

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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6 hours ago, austinpop said:

Check out my first paragraph in the Findings section, quoted below. The trifecta solution sounds better in that head to head, and given one or the other, I’d pick the trifecta.

Thanks @austinpop !  I’ll try and pay more attention next time.:(

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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8 hours ago, limniscate said:

I now have the sMS-200 Ultra, tX-USB Ultra, dX-USB Ultra, Mutec Ref10, Singxer SU-1 with LPS-1 mod, and Zenith Mk. II SE and am just waiting on some clock cables.

 

I'll report back after extensive testing.  Of course, I'm still waiting on my SR-7.

2

I am currently awaiting delivery of a sMS-200 Ultra, tX-USBUltra, sPS-500 & Mutec Ref10.  (Although I am running the Mutec MC3+USB)  I look forward to reading your observations, it should be interesting comparing notes.:)  Ironically, the only thing that has actually arrive so far are the clock cables I ordered.....

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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