A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[tapatrick]

Thanks for this great and informative post. I like reading such posts that bring new insights to our hobby.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Agreed. Thanks Romaz, a real service to the audio community.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tapatrick]

my answer easy ,short,clear.

sms 200,m rendu sound without soul.

 

?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tapatrick]

19 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Understood. 

 

BTW - it's definitely the modded sMS-200. I just ran it direct USB to the DAC, although the tX-USBultra was of course providing the clock. Even in this use case, the problem persists. It's as if the Roon Core momentarily loses contact with the endpoint (sMS-200), and thus stops the stream.

 

Will keep you posted, as the earliest I'll hear from SOtM is in 48 hours (their Monday morning).

 

 

Austinpop

interesting to hear your problems as I'm having similar issue with irregular stops in playback. Sometimes this is maddening and other times it's only a few times a day.  

 

I have different set up from you but wondering if there are similarities causing the issue. I have an Antipodes DXe >data only USB out> To Wavio USB to Spdif converter board with the 5v supplied by LPS-1>Aqua La Voce DAC. Sound is stunning as Wavio has great isolation, clock and high quality components. 

 

I have been trying to pin down where the problem lies which is not easy. Initially thought it was a network or Tidal issue but now seems to lie either with corrupt Antipodes software or Roon core glitch. Currently having my music server diagnosed. 

[tapatrick]

8 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi @tapatrick

 

That is most interesting. What versions of Roon are you on? My setup has the following versions:

1. Roon Core: Build 223
2. Roon app (iOS, W10, Mac): Build 223
3. Roon Ready on sMS-200: 1.1.16
4. sMS-200: v-0.3.7

Also, I found this on the SOtM site: https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/sms-200/#toggle-id-6

 

Based on this, I upped the Buffer Duration and Resync Delay on the Roon Ready config to 0.1 and 0.5 respectively (the max values). I also added a Resync Delay of 2000ms in the device settings from the Roon Core side.

 

None of these helped.

 

What is even more peculiar is that whereas previously, my failure case was a momentary pause, from which I could resume by hitting Play again, today the sMS-200 disappears completely from the Roon GUI. I see the "select audio zone" button, and the only way to recover is to restart my Ultra stack.

 

Very peculiar.

Hi @austinpop

 

Yes very peculiar. I'm also on the latest Roon core and control build 233, and would say my problems started with version 1.3.

 

Thanks for the info. I also increased the sync buffers in Roon but likewise it did not seem to help. When I get my DXe back I will check all those settings out in case I missed anything. 

 

I get exactly the same errors as you i.e. loss of endpoint (Wavio board), pauses - then starts again on pressing play after a few seconds. Occasionally Roon also reverts to "select audio zone" and I have to reboot. Sometimes frustratingly this has taken several reboots which Roon support thought indicated a network problem. 

 

While I'm waiting for return of my DXe I'm running Roon on MacBook Pro straight to DAC (without Wavio) - very stable but no comparison SQ wise and indicates it's not a network issue. 

 

Hope you get it solved.  I'm determined to get to the bottom of this as the sound when it works is mesmerising. Also have an ISO Regen on order to compare and possible solve. 

[tapatrick]

On 6 May 2017 at 9:22 PM, tapatrick said:

 

 

Austinpop

interesting to hear your problems as I'm having similar issue with irregular stops in playback. Sometimes this is maddening and other times it's only a few times a day.  

 

I have different set up from you but wondering if there are similarities causing the issue. I have an Antipodes DXe >data only USB out> To Wavio USB to Spdif converter board with the 5v supplied by LPS-1>Aqua La Voce DAC. Sound is stunning as Wavio has great isolation, clock and high quality components. 

 

I have been trying to pin down where the problem lies which is not easy. Initially thought it was a network or Tidal issue but now seems to lie either with corrupt Antipodes software or Roon core glitch. Currently having my music server diagnosed. 

 Hi Rajiv @austinpop

Quick update on the music stoppages. I got my Antipodes back and the problem is solved, it was corrupt software which has been reinstalled by Martin at Vortexbox UK. Hope you are having success with your issue.

 

Cheers Patrick

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, romaz said:

 

My dilemma now is whether to stay AOIP and go with switch > sMS-200Ultra > tX-USBultra as Rajiv has done or to take the gamble that a tX-USBultra combined with an Adnaco with better clocks and regulators can equal or perhaps beat this marvelous trifecta. 

@romaz

I applaud your dedication and sharing your very interesting journey of discovery. Enjoy Munich and thanks. 

Patrick. 

[tapatrick]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

Just FYI to everyone - 

 

I've taken the first step to creating an index to this thread, which is to get edit access to the first thread. I've created a skeleton placeholder where the index will go. 

 

Thanks Austinpop for making this massive thread manageable. I will be keeping an eye on how this all unfolds.

[tapatrick]

3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Attention, propeller-heads! Mad science experiment alert!

 

.......the floor is open.

WOW!

[tapatrick]

51 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Woot!

 

- works as designed....

 

 

Cool! Thanks what counts @austinpop

[tapatrick]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

2-day Ultra-vaganza Report

 

@austinpop @limniscate Fantastic off-the-scale posting, thanks for all the work and sharing your results. It's getting hard to keep up! :0

[tapatrick]

On 2 July 2017 at 10:47 PM, ElviaCaprice said:

 

Awesome, Roy, I'm loving my Omega 8XRS (2Qute drives them with volume to spare).  No subwoofer needed.  Checked out those Voxativ 9.87s online.  Saw they go for 25k to 33k.  Quietly closed the page.  I see they sent Steve Hoffman a set back in 2015, gratis, he loves them. 

@ElviaCaprice I'm curious how you drive your Omegas with the 2Qute and how the volume works? I didn't think the 2Qute was a headphone amp.

[tapatrick]

16 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Per Rob Watts, the 2Qute has one op amp that can achieve slightly better than 3V line level output, since there is no volume control on the 2Qute.  Which comes out to around 1 Watt.   Volume can be digitally controlled with a server media program, except for DOP.  Which I am happy to say sounds great at line level.  Also you could change the DSD on the fly to PCM, but I prefer not to do this.

Thats it, with the 98dB 8 ohm Omegas I get fantastic SQ with volume to spare.  As a nearfield listener this is perfect.  I DIYed a speaker/interconnect cable with RCA and banana plugs using Canare star quad 4S8.

Yes, the 2Qute does not have a headphone jack. 

Nice! thanks EC. Good info for potential experiments with my Omegas. 

[tapatrick]

51 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Hope that helped...

 

Hardcore dedication to the frontiers of audio nirvana. Thanks for sharing EC. 

[tapatrick]

19 hours ago, lmitche said:

 We just don't know enough about MBP sound, at least I don't.

 

I understand Rajiv asked not to read too much into his experiment, but ? I run an optimised USB set up with a newly introduced IR. (see signature) Occasionally I swop in my MacBook Pro in for one reason or another as source running Roon and I really can't stand it for more than a short time as the sound is unbearable. I also see others mention it as their source and wonder how they get this to work satisfactorily. 

The point I'm making and I'm sure Rajiv will concur the MBP as source is not a good comparison with his trifecta. 

[tapatrick]

9 hours ago, austinpop said:

Hey folks,

 

The index for this massive topic is now (mostly) complete. Take a look at the first post.

 

Two points to make:

1. I had to leave out a lot of stuff. If you posted something profound, and I excluded it, please accept my apologies. As I said in the index: NOTE: If you would like to nominate a post to this index, just PM me.
2. Since the topics of mobo mods, SATA improvements, and Adnaco were not in my area of interest, I did not cover these. If someone would volunteer to create the index for these sections, I would gladly accept their input.

I will try to keep the index up to date from here on out.

Amazing service to everyone Rajiv! thanks for distilling this phenomenon thread and highlighting all the key pieces of info. Will be interesting to see how the discoveries found and shared here impact on the industry and in the creation of new products down the line.

[tapatrick]

On 6/27/2017 at 4:40 PM, paulhynes said:

Hello Greenleo,

 

I agree that the SR7 is not a piece the majority can afford. So I have designed a lower power version of the SR7 to fit into an elongated SR3 chassis and this will be designated the SR4. This is a single rail supply and the continuous current rating will be 2A with a transient current rating of 20A. The SR4 has switched outputs of 5/7/9/12V, which should cover most of the digital interface equipment power requirements and the 2A output is available at all the voltage settings as the elongated chassis allows for the extra heat dissipation at lower voltage settings.

 

A new manufacturing facility is currently in preparation here in South Uist and I expect this to start operating in September/October.

 

The SR4 is in production engineering at present and I plan to have this available “Off the Shelf”, as a standard version to replace the SR3 in small quantities initially, from September/October to coincide with the new manufacturing facility start. Price will be circa £330 (currently $421) for all countries excluding Europe where VAT (Value Added Tax) will have to be added to comply with local tax legislation. Customisation outside the range of 5/12v is possible but this will be a made to order option and additional cost may apply for this depending on the level of customisation.

 

Regards

Paul

Paul Hynes Design

 

 

Hi Paul

 

(or anyone else) Is there any more info on the SR4, release dates and ordering info? If not Paul can anyone point me to where I can find out more?

Many thanks in advance

 

Patrick

 

[tapatrick]

18 hours ago, austinpop said:

Patrick,

 

I asked Paul about this a couple weeks ago. His best guess was end-Sept/early Oct.

 

Here is a bit more detail from his email. I hope he doesn't mind my posting it here!

 

"To answer your questions regarding the SR4,

1)    I revised the printed circuit board layout of the SR4 to reduce the chassis machining requirements, which caused a delay with the production boards. I am reluctant to take pre orders until I have verified the electrical and sonic performance of these revised boards and it will be approx 2 weeks before they arrive. Once I am happy with the performance I will begin producing them and taking orders. I have all the other materials in stock to produce the first batch so I expect this to be towards the end of September/early October if all goes according to plan.
2)    The overall specification will be the same as the SR7 rails with the exception of available power delivery and the regulator output within current ratings will be below 3 milliohms.
3)    All my power supplies are galvanically isolated from AC ground and the supply rails are completely floating with respect to chassis earth as this eliminates interaction when using multiple power supply rails in a sound system. The mains transformers are configured as balanced transformers with balanced Schottky rectification to provide a high degree of common mode isolation from mains even before the voltage regulator supply rejection is factored in. You should not have any problems with leakage current artefacts when using these power supplies."

Thanks Rajiv, appreciate the update. I take it the only way to get info is by emailing Paul. 

[tapatrick]

14 hours ago, austinpop said:

Listening Impression with the Cybershaft OP-14 Reference Clock - Part 2

 

Since my clock chain is hard to visualize from what's in my signature, I've updated my system topology picture to give you a clearer idea of how things wire together. Hopefully, it helps understand the flow better. See the diagram below.

 

 

And here is a photo of the latest "spaghetti chain." I would characterize this more as a pasta medley - a hearty mix of linguine, pappardelle, and penne.

 

 

I've been doing a lot of listening since my Cybershaft arrived. However, I waited (im)patiently until about 50 hours of burn-in, and then again at 100 hours, to do any comparisons, or draw any conclusions.

 

Roy tells me that on his Ref 10, it is easy to turn each clock output on/off, which makes A/B comparisons of with/without reference clock really easy. On the OP-14, there is no switch. Also, it's important not to power cycle the unit, as it can take at least an hour for the OCXO to stabilize. The tX-USBultra continues to function if the reference clock is hot plugged in or out. My technique was to disconnect and reconnect on the OP-14 output, as it was easy to reach from my listening chair.

 

The first time I did this, I went from ref clock connected to disconnected. It took my brain a few seconds to register, but then it hit me. WOW - what a difference! It was like deflating a balloon. Some of the magic died. And yet - this was what, just a few days ago, I thought was the best my system had ever sounded. Connect the OP-14 back, and the goosebumps were back!

 

How to describe the improvement with the OP-14? I'll talk about it in the context of these pieces of music I happened to use while comparing:

• Mahler Symphony 3: Sehr langsam "O Mensch"
   
•  Sibelius Symphony 6: 1st movement
   
• Buena Vista Social Club: Pueblo Nuevo
   
• Mahler Symphony 5: Scherzo
   
•  Gorecki Symphony 3: 1st movement
   
• Beethoven Piano Concerto No.5 "Emperor": 1st movement

 

The improvement comes in these major areas:

1. Rock solid image
   • The sonic image seemed bigger in all 3 dimensions, but also had a sense of solidity and stability to it.
   • This was especially noticeable in the big orchestral Mahler and SIbelius pieces
2. Dynamic
   • It seemed like the music had a greater dynamic range.
   • There was a perceived reduction in the noise floor.
   • In the Mahler 3rd, the movement begins with an extremely low level harmony in the strings. I'd never heard this so clearly and so dramatically before.
3. Dimensionality of individual instruments
   • In Pueblo Nuevo, the piano sounded more real than before
   • Ditto in the Beethoven piano concerto
4. Incredible resolution and detail
   • What I love about the Mahler pieces in my list is how small groupings of instruments play with and against each other to really bring out the emotion. In sonic terms, it allows individual instruments to shine. With the OP-14, these instruments - like the french horn, the oboe, the strings had incredible texture and dimension.
5. Improved bass
   • The Gorecki starts with a minimalist melody in the double basses and cellos. With the OP-14, I really felt the growl in the pit of your stomach.
6. Smoother tonality
   • Overall, there was a further reduction in harshness, brightness, and fatigue. There was a richness, a smoothness, and an incredible sense of ease.

 

Just when I thought my trifecta couldn't sound any better, along comes another improvement that raises the bar further. I am just gobsmacked by the sheer magnitude of this improvement. And all this without any change to my DAC. Frankly, after the last round of improvements, I was pretty convinced that to achieve significant gains past this point, I'd have to upgrade my DAC first. But the Codex keeps scaling up to reach new heights. Pretty darn impressive.

 

And finally, a word about cost benefit. The OP-14 isn't cheap, so is the incremental benefit worth the cost? For me, the answer is yes, because of two reasons:

1. I find it difficult to go back to the prior configuration without feeling a sense of profound loss.
2. The SQ jump with the OP-14 is much greater than what I heard when I replaced the Codex with the DAVE in an earlier listening session. That price delta was HUGE, much higher than the price of the OP-14.

Clearly, in my system, the investments in the front end of the digital chain seem to pay bigger dividends in SQ than just in the DAC. Eventually, I'm sure everything matters, but at this point, I feel like the investment in the OP-14 is giving me excellent value.

 

As always - every system is different, so YMMV!

Great review and ever fascinating discoveries. Thanks  @austinpop

I must say this thread is riveting and competes with top TV dramas! 

[tapatrick]

11 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Not sure if this got answered? I was away from the thread for a day, and a lot of interesting posts!

 

I think I addressed your question in this post here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=722622

 

But in a nutshell:

1. the sCLK-EX board uses a frequency synthesizer to generate the 4 independent frequencies that appear on it clock outputs.
2. The sCLK-EX board uses an internal oscillator to generate the reference frequency for its frequency synthesizer
3. Additionally, it is designed to accept an external reference input, which can replace the output of its internal oscillator
4. Assuming the external reference has ultra low phase noise - like the Mutec, the Cybershaft, or the upcoming SOtM OCX-10, this low phase noise gets "inherited" by the sCLK-EX outputs.

 

@austinpop thanks for clarifying even more how the clocking works. This is a compelling thread and I'm still trying to get my head around all the spaghetti to see how/when I may invest in it. What I'm puzzled by is buying a sCLK board and then reclocking it by another new master clock.  I presume down the line this could be purchased as one integrated item? I mean master clock and sCLK-ex...

[tapatrick]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

It's hard to say. It depends on demand. Remember - it's all about cost. Reference clocks are expensive - even the economical ones. What fraction of people who pay for sCLK-EX are willing to take the next step to a reference clock?

 

If it's 90%+, say, then a business case exists for vendors to offer integrated solutions. If, on the other hand, the number is more like 20%, then today's situation - the modular approach - is likely to endure.

Yes, that makes sense. Just trying to get my head around buying a clocking board then a master clock to run that, but this is the leading edge...  Many thanks for curating this superb thread.

[tapatrick]

7 hours ago, afrancois said:

I've got mine here: https://www.digikey.be/product-detail/en/3m/AB5100SHF-210X297/3M155949-ND/5823559

 

Shipping is from the US, but it is fast. However be prepared to pay extra customs charges. For me, it was 36 euros on an amount of 150 euros.

I’ve ordered 2 sheets and other components from Digikey US to UK and arrived both times in 2 days without any extra customs charges. 

[tapatrick]

On 10/15/2017 at 5:54 PM, Johnseye said:

...It has a PCIe slot so I can use a tx-USBexp.

Hi @Johnseye does the tx-USBexp only come with PCIe slot, or do you know if there is a PCI version? I'm not familiar with hacking inside PCs and am considering upgrading my Antipodes DXe which has the older slot..

[tapatrick]

12 minutes ago, rickca said:

You could use a tX-USBhubEX instead of the tX-USBexp.  SOtM used to make a tX-USB which I think was a PCI card.  You can read about the differences between tX-USBexp and tX-USB in the FAQ on this page

https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/tx-usbexp/#toggle-id-1

Thanks @rickca I will check this out. My Server has the older tx-usb which is indeed a PCI card, I'm considering the newer version combined with one of the sCLK boards....

[tapatrick]

14 minutes ago, Confused said:

I have to admit I am not 100% clear as to which output this refers to.  Let’s say I can interpret this in a couple of different ways.  Would it be too much to ask for a sketch, diagram or maybe photograph to make sure this is clear?  

See here from the Grounding SMPS thread John mentioned with photos. I tried it on the input to my Aqvox switch and helped noticeably. Thanks once again John for another  simple and effective adjustment!

 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:27 AM, JohnSwenson said:

Fortunately there is a real easy - inexpensive way to do this, it doesn't take any complex knowledge, I'm calling this the power supply grounding adapter, here are a couple pictures:

 

 

This consists of three items and some wire. The yellow item is a three pin AC power plug (shown is the US model), the black parts are male and female DC barrel connectors with screw connectors, no soldering necessary! Amazon has a whole bunch of places selling these for CCTV cameras. The spec is 5.5mm outside and 2.1mm inside. Most you will see will be this spec. The + of the male is wired to the + of the female and - on the male goes to - of the female. Look at the close up picture, in order for the wire to go straight across one of the connectors has to be upside down. This is extremely important to get right. You can use many different types of wire for this, I used solid core 14AWG wire with the insulation stripped off.

 

A green wire goes from the ground pin of the AC plug to the - pin of one of the connectors, strip a little off and just stick it in with the wire going between the two connectors, use a screwdriver to tighten the screws, you are done.

 

The green wire does NOT have to be a heavy duty high power wire. The SMPS are already designed to be double insulated so the AC cannot show up on the DC output, grounding it does not pose any electrical threat. I just used some nice silicon rubber wire I bought on Amazon, but really any green wire will do.

 

You plug the output of the SMPS into the "jack" side, and the "plug" side goes into where you would have plugged the SMPS. The AC plug goes into the SAME power strip or duplex outlet where you plugged in the SMPS. This is very important to properly shunt the high impedance part of the leakage current. If it goes into a different circuit you can wind up making it worse.

 

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Does anyone have a GS105 or GS108 that they could loan to John to see if these current production switches also block leakage current like the FS105/FS108?

 

If John were close to me I'd happily drop him one to look at but I'm on the other side of the world :-(

 

Maybe John has explained this already but couldn’t find it due to this topic being spread over a few threads but what is it about the FS105/108s that make them block the high impedance leakage?