A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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On 3/31/2017 at 0:39 PM, romaz said:

 

Thanks for explaining.  Yes, server = Mac Mini.  My experience with optical isolation is similar to yours.

I tried network isolation and didn't notice a difference either.

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Thanks Johnseye and tboooe for the interesting discussion.

 

I'm trying to decide whether to just get a dX-USB Ultra to replace my Singxer SU-1 or to mod my SU-1 and get a sMS-200 Ultra or just get a tX-USB Ultra in front of my Singxer SU-1 with my microrendu.

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2 minutes ago, tboooe said:

The permutations make my brain hurt!  At least for me, the decision to ditch my SU-1 would depend on how good the USB input is in my DAC.  In my case, the clock in the SU-1 is better than the clock in the Spring DAC USB input.  In my opinion, no matter how good the clock or input is in front the DAC, if its USB input is not very good you will never get the best sound.  

 

Are you using the SU-1 I2S output?  What DAC do you have?

I'm using USB input on the SU-1 from a microRendu via a Curious USB cable and AES output on the SU-1 to Schiit Yggdrasil.

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16 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

This is one possibility for me. Do you hear an improvement with the SU-1 in the chain vs. mR direct to your Yggdrasil? Any concerns with the AES? 

I haven't tested just the SU-1 in the chain versus the microRendu and SU-1.  I think the AES sounds the same as the microrendu to Yggdrasil direct with Curious USB cable.  However the SU-1 sounded better than the microrendu to Yggdrasil direct with Oyaide Neo d+ USB cable.

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Indeed it was an enlightening afternoon at @austinpop

 

To clarify, my impressions were a little different than reported by austinpop.  Of all of the changes that we made, I think the Dave had the least amount of impact.  I don't think that the Dave had as big of an impact as the switch.  

 

I'd say that the switch and swapping the microrendu for sMS-200 Ultra had about an equal impact, which I must say, was quite large.  The next biggest impact was the tX-USB Ultra, and a distant third was the Dave.

 

We plan to run the same experiments on my system on Thursday, so it'll be interesting to hear the differences on my Magnepan 3.7i's versus austinpop's headphones.  The differences between the Dave and Ayre Codex were similar to what I noted between my Schiit Yggdrasil and the Dave.

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3 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Excellent Eric, Rajiv!!!  Eric is it possible in your system to try the tX-USB Ultra in a server direct USB setup only to DAVE?  Would be nice to get a reference to the Ethernet setup.  Try comparing to the mRendu tX-USB DAVE.

   Thanks

Yeah, but we won't be able to use a Curious USB cable between the sever and tX-USB Ultra.

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1 hour ago, Always.Learning said:

I would just recommend that, as the manual makes clear, use the PCM setting for PCM recordings and the DSD setting for DSD recordings. But I don't think DAVE does DSD in true native form, and I think you should at least listen to a few PCM recordings when doing your comparisons. As ElviaCaprice said, Chord dacs are best known for great PCM playback. You don't need to worry about upsampling options or filters; DAVE does all that internally. 

 

I assume you were listening to your headphones via DAVE's headphone out? Or were you sending the signal via interconnects to your Cavalli headphone amp? If the latter, then you are no doubt losing some transparency. DAVE's headphone out simply grabs the signal that comes straight from the dac; there is no separate headphone amplification stage. This is the purest, most transparent way to listen to DAVE with headphones. 

 

Regarding the HF filter on DAVE, I prefer to leave it on. I personally don't think it makes a significant difference.

 

Finally, you should make sure that when you are using DAVE on speakers (as opposed to headphones), the Crossfeed setting is set to zero. The Crossfeed setting appears only when headphones are plugged in, but once it is set, it remains in effect even when listening to speakers. If you happen to leave the setting on when listening to speakers, you will get crosstalk on your stereo channels, which tends to muddy the sound and degrade the soundstage. 

 

I'm looking forward to the reports from your speaker-based listening session. 

 

 

We had the crossfeed setting at 0.  I saw this on the Dave thread on head-fi, but thanks for the heads up.  I'm sure it's definitely important when listening on speakers.  I haven't tried the Dave directly to my power amp (Sanders Magtech).  I've only tried it in DAC mode to my Audio Research Ref5SE.

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@austinpop and I are testing now.

 

So the sMS-200 Ultra to the Singxer SU-1 to Yggy via AES definitely worse than the sMS-200 Ultra directly to the Yggy via USB with Curious cable.

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@austinpop and I just finished our testing and confirmed the results from his system.  My system is as follows:

 

-Windows 10 Creator's Update with Roon PC as the source with FLAC files on a Western Digital Black 6TB HDD.  It's a general purpose PC with no special audio components.

-Sonore microRendu with Uptone LPS-1

-Singxer SU-1 connected to the microRendu with a Curious USB short link

-Schiit Yggy connected to the Singxer SU-1 with a Transparent Reference AES cable

-Audio Research Ref5SE (stock 6H30 tubes but 6550 Winged C power tubte) connected to the Schiit Yggy with Shunyata Zitron Python Balanced XLR interconnects

-Sanders Magtech connected to the Audio Research Ref5SE with Groneberg TS Premium single-ended interconnects (soon to be Teo Game-Changer)

-Magnepan 3.7i (Empirical Design jumpers, no resistors) connected with Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme Speaker cables

 

Blue Jeans Cat5E+ LAN cables.

 

Cerious Technologies Power cables on the Audio Research Ref5SE, Sanders Magtech.  Shunyata Alpha HC on the Schiit (yes I know it should be the digital version).  Stock power cord on the Singxer.  Stock cables on the LPS-1 but the power supply is connected with a Groneberg Quattro Reference Power Cable.  Cryo'ed Hubbell Outlets, dedicated 20 amp circuit but with 14 ga. cabling.  We tested without my subs on (Rythmik F12G).  Starsound Apprentice SP-SA-103-3 under the Audio Research Ref5SE, Sanders Magtech.

 

Room Treatments

Five GiK Monster Bass Traps with range limiters and scatter plates.

 

Three GiK QRD Diffusors

 

 

Now to the good stuff:

1.  First we just switched out the Sonore microRendu for the sMS-200 Ultra.  There was a massive resolution increase with this switch.

2.  Second we added in the tX-USB Ultra.  It added a lot of meatiness to the sound.  Bass increased in tightness, definition, and warmth.  It just sounded more round.

3.  Third we added in the switch with the bridge from my PC instead of going through my router.  The switch took out the edginess/grain and just sounded a lot more natural.

 

 

TL;DR

The SotM stack is awesome!

1. sMS-200 Ultra increases resolution

2. tX-USB Ultra increases meatiness, warmth, sounds rounder/fuller

3. Switch sounds smoother/more natural and gets rid of any edginess/gain.

 

If I had to quantify each improvement, I'd say each component adds 3-5% improvement for a total of 9-15%.  It's not subtle.  For me, each component had a bigger effect than going to the Dave from the Yggy.

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5 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Thanks for your report!

 

Regarding the Shunyata Alpha HC cord, with all my digital gear and especially with my DAC, I have found Shunyata's HC cord to sound much better than their Digital cord, which I attribute to lower line resistance.

 

Please clarify whether the SU-1 remained in your chain (meaning you eventually connected the tX-USBUltra to the SU-1) or did you replace the SU-1 with the tX-USBUltra.  To get the Yggy to sound better via USB than AES is saying a lot.

 

As with all things, these things are system dependent.  With my switch, what I noticed most was how much more massive the soundstage became.  

 

Lastly, as good as you think this all sounds, if you can stomach the cost, give the dCBL-CAT7 a try.  A pair of these combined with the iSO-CAT6 LAN isolator results in another big step change.  At some point, you just stop asking how it's possible and you just go with it.

 

Tomorrow, I will receive a tX-USBUltra and so I will have 4 Ultra devices in series to try.

 

At first we replaced the Sonore microRendu with the sMS-200 Ultra and left the Singxer SU-1 in place.  Then we took the Singxer out and just used the sMS-200 Ultra direct to the Yggy via Curious USB.  The sMS-200 Ultra via Curious USB to Yggy was much better than the sMS-200 Ultra via Curious USB to the Singxer via Transparent Reference AES to the Yggy.

 

I may have to try those cables and filter.  I'm really wondering what a system with the SotM sClk-EX would sound like in the whole digital chain including the server and the DAC.  Aren't you testing the clock on the server side now?  Could you please tease us with some preliminary impressions?

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Just now, greenleo said:

Thanks for both of your efforts.

 

1. SQwise, how do mR+txUltra and 200Ultra compare?

2. Have you two txUltra?  If yes, please try cascade them after the 200Ultra to check if this setup has reached the point of diminishing return.

 

 

I have a notion that each reclocking may hurt the original signal.  Hence the 1st txUltra will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface.  The 2nd txUltra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.  A 3rd txUltra (if its there) will iron out the 3rd order hurts remaining in the signal, ...

Clearly, sooner or later, the point of diminishing return will be reached.

 

Similarly a modified switch will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface, The 200Ultra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.  However the signal goes from LAN to USB and the 3rd clock in the USB side of the 200Ultra will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface.  The final txUltra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.

 

My 2 cents and hope that the notion may be falsified.

We forgot to test Sonore microRendu to tX-USB Ultra.

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I want to hear @romaz's report on the server side as well.  If that's as big as a jump with the other clocks, could I just get the latest SotM server with the sClk-Ex and forgo the dX-USB Ultra/tX-USB Ultra and sMS-200 Ultra, or would I have to get all of the devices?

 

I'm also probably going to try the cables and LAN filter as you suggested @romaz

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30 minutes ago, rickca said:

I'm confused by the SOtM nomenclature.  It says the tX-USBultra comes with a sCLK-EX12 board.  That board is listed under the heading of 'single clock frequency for interface system' on the sCLK-EX webpage.  So does the sCLK-EX12 board have 4 clocks or just one?

 

One other question.  Using the sCLK-EX and transplanting some of the clocks from say, a tX-USBultra to a switch or SMS-200, you have wires interconnecting various devices sharing the sCLK-EX.  Don't these wires somewhat degrade the clock compared to each device having its own clock board?

 

I'd appreciate a response from @romaz, @austinpop, @mozes or anyone else who has experience with this approach.

The clock has four taps. @austinpop sent them his sMS-200 and a switch to hardwire to the tX-USB Ultra, but apparently, they have a cleaner method now, as shown earlier in this thread, where they put connectors on the outside of the chassis so one can disconnect the cables.

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@romaz

Do you need two or three dCBL-CAT7 cables? It seems like you would need three: one from server NIC to iSO-CAT6, one from iSO-CAT6 to switch, and one from switch to sMS-200 Ultra. 

 

 

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I ask May if the SMB connectors negatively affect sound quality.  She said she'll have to test after Munich.

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8 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I missed that. I have no experience with the new 200w units, so do not know how they sound.

 

 

Simply because it then eliminates the possibility of using it with an LPS-1. You'd be looking at more expensive units like the VR MINI or the Paul Haynes SR5/SR7 to achieve that level of quality or better.

 

The reason SOtM offer the 12v option is not because it is sonically superior, but because it allows you to match to an existing PSU you may already have.

Are you sure that the sMS-200 Ultra can be powered by an Uptone LPS-1?  The website says that the max current input is 2A.

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Does anyone know if the Paul Hynes SR5 is better than the Uptone LPS-1? I know @romazthinks the SR7 is better. 

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1 hour ago, mozes said:

I also would like to know how Vinnie Rossi Mini compares to Paul Hynes SR5 or SR7

According to Vinni, one Mini will not be able to power the sMS-200 Ultra and the dX-USB Ultra at the same time.  However, one Mini should be able to power one of the devices.

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30 minutes ago, mozes said:

I think this is now sort of established and there is no argument about it.

 

My understanding of what @austinpop wrote is that there is some trade-off going on between isolation and signal integrity in a USB chain. What is the impact of a better clock when it improves SI relative to the added Jitter as a result of isolation devices like Intona and now the new Iso-Regen which is supposedly much better than the Intona?

That was not our (@austinpop and I) experience.  When we just had the switch in place, it made just as big of a difference as when we had just the tX-USB Ultra in place.

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@romaz

Thanks for the reply.

Do you know where I could try a SOtM server?  Also, I saw an old post where you said the iSO-CAT6 had very little effect on sound quality; however that post was when you had the dCBL-CAT6.  Are you saying that the dCBL-CAT7 has some sort of greater synergy with the iSO-CAT6?  

 

Have you had the dCBL-CAT& and iSO-CAT6 combo between the server and switch and the switch and end point simultaneously, i.e., four cables and two iSO-CAT6?  That's what SOtM is recommending to me, but I'm wondering if it's just a money grab, lol.

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On 5/13/2017 at 8:16 AM, AmusedToD said:

Hi everyone,

 

I have the sms-200 which is powered by the Sbooster BOTW P&P Eco 12v, and the combo works great. In my chain after the sms-200 I have an Ifi nano iUsb3.0 which further lowers the noise floor and improves the signal coming out of the sms-200. After reading the glowing reviews of the tX-USBultra, I decided to bite the bullet and order one. 

 

Since this is a blind buy, is there a consensus regarding the SQ improvement with the tX-USBultra over the basic sms-200? It's really an expensive device, I just hope it's 3 times better than the (almost) 3 times cheaper ISO regen.

 

And finally, since Uptone is (boldly) claiming  their new $35 USPSB adapter is better than any USB cable, if I decide to buy one should I put it between the SMS-200 and the tX-USBultra, or between the tX-USBultra and my DAC?

I don't know how I would quantify improvement of the tX-USB Ultra over the stock sMS-200 because I haven't heard it in a while, but both @austinpop and I thought that the tX-USB Ultra and his modded sMS-200 (Ultra-like) yielded equal improvements to sound quality.

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Does anyone know anything about the new W4S LPS?

 

https://www.wyred4sound.com/products/upgrades-mods-accessories/ps-1-modular-linear-power-supply

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2 minutes ago, rickca said:

Maybe someone in Munich can convince SOtM to source switches themselves for the clock transplant.  Beats shipping a switch to them.

 

SOtM has the potential to run the table (in the billiards sense) on these 'middleware' devices like streamers, converters and reclockers.

They've agreed to source a switch for me.

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Quote

Hi Richard, as many already pointed out, exceeding the performance of the amp you have without "amping up" the investment very significantly might be a tall order. As you enjoy the sound of M625 S2 but you would like more power, I warmly recommend the Rowland M725 S2 class A/B monos or the Rowland M825 stereo, or the M925 monos. Outside the Rowland World, I might look at Solution amps.... Quite expensive, but yield a musicality that also meets my sound concept.

 

But there is something you can do to enhance the music of your system while keeping M625 S2, Corus, and the Aeris DAC.... Last week I have installed the recently released Rowland Power Storage Unit (PSU). As I mentioned via email, this is an external full chassis power supply based on ultra-capacitors. It is designed to feed simultaneously Aeris and Corus with pure DC, and takes them off the AC mains grid. I had heard glowing third party reports on it, but I was a little skeptical... While I have not had ultra-capacitors in my system, I understood the concept, and have had battery powered pre-amplifcation before.... And the performance difference between batteries and AC was very subtle.

 

But when I connected PSU into the Rowland Aeris DAC I realized that batteries supplies and PSU are totally different animals... The performance enhancement is simply staggering, even on my system which I already considered wonderful, where Aeris feeds directly a pair of Rowland M925 4-chassis monoblocks into Vienna Acoustics Die Muzik. The enhancement is apparent from first activation for all audible parameters I can think of, and is followed by a rapid evolution lasting perhaps 200 hours, which pushes performance even futher.

 

I will soon create a dedicated thread on PSU with a lot more detail.

 

Guido

 

This is a post from Audiogon.

 

This new Rowland PSU looks like an Uptone LPS-1 type solution for DAC and Pre.

 

Guido, the OP, reviews for Positive Feedback.

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@romaz

 

Do you think I should just skip out on the iSO-CAT6 and get three dCBL-CAT7 cables instead?