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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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@Imitche, so I ordered a bunch of the 6" and 10" Coboc sata cables, they came yesterday and I installed the 6" on the OS SSD, and the 10" on the music HDD.  They definitely made a nice change to the sound.  More space and air between things, higher transparency and leading edges had more forceful attack.  I was very impressed.  99 cents for the 6" and 79 cents for the 10", bang for the buck.

 

@romaz the intel X25E ssd should arrive this week and hopefully I will be trying that in the next week or 2, 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have no idea how you (Roy) find the time to research all the options you discussed thru this thread, listen to music, install various toys, Work and spend time with your family.  I and this community are very grateful to your thought provoking insights to streaming/payback of digital audio.  Hats off as well to everyone who has contributed to this endeavor.

 

Due to the layout of our house and location of router, top floor, and location of listening room bottom floor without cutting into the walls and running cable which I don't want to do since we are just renters in this house.  I am committed to the USB pathway from my windows 10 pro server to my T+A Dac 8DSD.  Currently I use a pretty direct connection, PC-AQ Jitterbug- WW silver starlight USB-Uptone Regen (powered by a very low noise linear PSU)- custom made 6" silver USB cable-T+A Dac.  My mother board is a gigabyte Z170x gaming 3 with dac-up USB ports and I currently turn the 5V line to this port off in Bios.  My CPU is a i7-6700K and I have fallen hard for DSD512 up sampling ever since I got my Gustard X20 to successfully stream 512 by adding a 3rd party USB card and tapping into the I2S lines in the PCIe slot, vacated by the stock USB card.  I also added a much better OCXO clock (with external linear PSU) next to the dac chips which proved to be eye opening.  So any PC choice I make centers around DSDS512 capability.

 

I managed to get in on the first wave of Iso-regen orders so I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of that.  In the mean time I have done 3 of the steps discussed in this thread with great success.  First I moved my 2 sticks of DDR4 ram into one channel closet to the CPU that made a subtle but very nice improvement and I have noted no negative effect with HQP up sampling with various filters with this move.  Then I got several of the sata data cables that Larry mentions in this thread a 6" from a sata port to my OS SSD and a 10" from a sata port to my 3TB 7200 RPM Hdd music storage drive, another nice improvement.  Then I got my hands on a used SLC nand flash SSD mentioned by Roy, that change was simply stunning I could not believe the very positive change that made to the sound.  So much so that I will not try the HDD OS/music drive method discussed by Larry.  I put that change in line with going from DSD256 to 512, getting a new, much better amp etc.  The sound stage became larger, wider and higher, more separation and space between performers.  Leading edges had better define and attack the sound is very analog like and on good digital source I put it up with some of the best analog I have heard.  I have zero issue with 6 hour listening sessions the music is so involving, engaging and fatigue free.  Dynamics are what I call excellent, I don't totally understand the softening of sound that is frequently mentioned with regard to DSD playback.

 

I still have a few low cost plans to improve the sound further.  1) get the PCIe to sata card Roy mentions so I can tap into a more direct path to the CPU.  I will have to remove the 1060 GPU card I have, which may well further improve the sound as the RF noise should be lower.  2) replace my very good seasonic platinum PSU with a titanium version 3) play with clock speeds of my CPU, down clocking from the 4.5Ghz I am at now to slower speeds and reduce Vcore as well 4) install the iso-regen.  I will be very interested in Larry's report of the effects of the iso-regen with his Adnaco card and if the iso-regen adds much improvement or if the iso-regen fed from a stock USB port on his MB can hang by itself with the Adnaco/iso-regen combo.  Depending on that result I will either jump into the adnaco method and replace the clocks myself and possibly switch to linear regulators over the switching.  The other path should that not prove out is to look into a PCIe to USB card with 3 contenders in that arena Paul Pang, Jcat and Sotm.

 

I also have a friend who is seriously thinking of getting into the 512 game and if so he wants me to build him a server.  I am very intrigued by the new AMD Ryzen cpu's with much larger cache memory and more cores than intel for the same $.  Block diagrams see to show more ports and lanes with direct connection to the CPU another possible advantage which makes me think this could be a better solution than intel.  Then there is Roy's report above of a new SoC board he discovered and those fascinate me but their inability to up sample to 512 does seem to rule them out.  Then there is the SQ improvement he reported on by using the SR7 to power it, and the huge improvement it had over the ATX supply.  So possibly with enough time I can find one that can use a laptop CPU with a 35w or so TDP that can be powered from a 19V or 12v linear supply. That should have the horses to do 512 with at least the 2s filters in HQP.  Miska has reported a i5-7600t is capable of the 2s filters at 512 resolution with about 50% cpu usage.

 

I can say this; the improvement I have gotten from digital sources in the past 2 years and the $ that I spent to do so are way less than the $ one needs to spend to get equal improvement in the analog chain.  I own a SME 30 Mk2 TT and my digital, even connected the way it is now with a good digital source is every bit as involving as my TT.  I am committed to the digital chain and it convenience.

 

I am also very grateful to all who have contributed and opened my eyes and thought process to think outside the box, we are just scratching the surface of PC digital playback.  Push on.

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Way back in early March there was discussion of damping (vibration) inside a dac, PC etc.  I can concur that damping can have a pretty positive effect.  Just try damping your dac chips, big FGPA chips, capacitors, clocks etc.  I have found some pretty big positive changes in sound with damping.  The material of choice which was not mentioned earlier is EAR SD40AL Michael Percy audio sells it.  Stay far away from the soft pliable damping material such as blu-tac and mortite.  The EAR has an adhesive back and can easily be removed tho some caution must be observed as the aluminum side, should it fall off and come in contact with active circuity can cause problems (I have not encountered this at all but..).  This material was especially effective in the Gustard and I have also noted improvements in the T+A.

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@romaz very interesting comparison.  Since I am USB chain committed if I read your post correctly you listened to each adnaco (unmodified) and tX-USB ultra separately with your  new DFI MB based server (also unmodified) and then you put both of them in the chain and reported "Combined, however, the result was this magical balance of all these qualities combined.  I listened for hours and couldn't stop listening.  No fatigue.  It was that good."  So I assume that chain was PC-Adnaco fibre- Fibre/USB box- USB to tX-ultra then USB to Dac. That is very encouraging for the USB folks.  To bad the Lan ports/OS wouldn't cooperate for a "bridged" connection to compare Ethernet chain vs almost pure USB chain.

 

Thank you again for taking the time and effort to compare both methods in search of the best sound possible.  All of us PC playback folks owe you a huge debt of gratitude.  Looking forward to further explorations with fully modified boards in the USB chain.

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Yes what Johnseye said, when you cut the 3M sheets there are exposed metal particles that can touch active circuits and cause a mess you don't want to deal with, best to just cut pieces to the body size and don't go over gravity always works and down the road it could short out very close together SMD legs.

 

Also damping some of these SMD chips, clocks etc can be very beneficial, I use a product from EAR that has a aluminum sheet on top of the damping material, it called something like EAR SD40al or similar.  Michael Percy carries it in the US.  This can have very positive effects on Dac's and PC's.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Based on @lmitche recommendation and my use of gotham cable as interconnects for the past 15 years.  I got some gac ultra pro 4/1 cable to use as DC power and 1 interconnect from Dac to preamp.  The first cable I made up was the inteconnet from dac to preamp.  As you know this cable can easily be used as a JSSG 360 by twisting the inner conductor shields together with the two outer shields.  I chose another path.  From some earlier DIY projects I had some 70mm dupont leads on hand which I cut in half.  When I built this cable I kept the inner conductor shields separated from the outer shields, I then soldered these dupont leads to each shield at each end.  I then ran 2 separate 24ga wires from end to end also with dupont connectors so I could effectively, vary how I wanted this shielding to run.  I could run it with only the inner shield as a JSSG and outer disconnected, or connect just the outer and leave inner disconnected.  I could connect inner and outer making a JSSG 360 or I could run both shields separate from each other, effectively making a jssg for inner and jssg for outer but not connected together.  And finally I could disconnect the shields altogether so there was no JSSG effect.  Heres a photo of the IC set up.

 

1787846474_Gac4UPgrounding.thumb.jpg.ab59916ce92fef07586f3a2736e77dbe.jpg

 

As you can see with the duponts I can easily switch how my shielding is set up.  So I set about experimenting.  After a lot of back and forth listening to parts of several songs over and over I decided that I preferred running my shields separate and not in a traditional JSSG 360, by seperate I mean the inner shields are connected together, and the outer shields are connected together but there is no continuity between the two. Whereas a traditional JSSG 360 the inner and outer shields would be connected together at each end of the cable forming a loop between the inner and outer.

 

I PM'd Larry about this but have not heard back from him, btw does anyone know if he is he okay? I sure hope so.  So if you want try this set up as opposed to a traditional JSSG360 I'd be curious on your results.  Now to be fair this test was only using a analog interconnect I have not done this test on my dc cables as there 4 of them (in my system) and I just haven't had the will to try the various schemes on those. I am running them as separate inner and outer tho based on my IC results.

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  • 4 weeks later...
40 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

The X25-E on its own is much quieter to where it almost has a muting effect after listening with the Optane.  Gain can be increased without fatigue while listening with the X25-E by comparison. 

Thank you so much @Johnseye I was waiting for your review and as far as I know you are the only one to actually compare both optane and SLC SSD.  I have been in the SLC SSD camp (Same Intel X25E 64GB) ever since @romaz reported on its much improved SQ.  I also added the Sotm Sata II filter and felt if offered some benefit as well.  I too power the SSD with LPSU's (my DIY Sigma S11 at 7v followed by 2- 1A LT3045 boards in series (6V>5V).  I have upgraded all DC power cables to Gotham Gac 4/1 ultra pro (after trying and really liking PoE Cat 7 and Cat 8 cables).  I made my Gotham cables so I can play with shielding variations soldering dupont connectors to the inner shield and outer shield, and keeping the shields separated.  This way I can run a dual JSSG (inner to inner, outer to outer) or easily switch to a JSSG 360 as everyone raves about here.  I am still playing with shielding schemes to report which shielding method I prefer.

 

I had a feeling that the SLC SSD would be quieter as the SQ I now get is simply breath taking.  Speakers (as big as mine are) just flat out disappear.  I am left with just this sound field, as thou I am actually on stage with them.   Wide and deep is the stage with very solid, real and palpable images within.  Energy can just explode from any part of the stage as that musician plays his instrument.  I have never heard sound like this from a 2 channel stereo before.

 

Coincidently I just spent the last week modifying my Phono stages (pass Xono, and Dynavector PH100 current based step up).  I was improving the PSU's of these 2 devices adding much higher quality diodes, and in the dynavector replacing diodes, opamps and a few capacitors.  I fired this up this past Friday my TT is a SME30mk2, with SME Vd arm and dynavector XV1s cartridge.  Certainly a better than average analog rig.  3 listens in on vinyl (after 2 years with zero vinyl listening, just up sampled DSD512) it certainly is pleasant and at times excellent, but a least in the early stages of these mods burning in, no match for my DSD512 rig.  Time will tell as I let the phono preamps burn in.   

 

Point being as a community we have taken digital playback to extremely high levels.  This past year has taught me that we are probably just starting to reach the potential of what digital holds.  I can't wait to see what future improvements lie ahead.  Exciting times we are in.

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10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

This is the dilemma with the extreme upsampling (HQPlayer to DSD512), isn't it? To get the benefit brings the requirement of higher wattage, ATX regulation, and a fan, all of which potentially add noise, which is the opposite of the low-powered approach many of us have followed. 

Although what you say has to be true to some extent.  My HTPC case with AMD 1800X, seasonic 850w titanium PSU with 5 case cooling fans and CPU fan makes magic.  The blackness of the stage is surreal.  Added noise is not something anyone listening to it would ever consider.  Logic says it can be improved so someday I'll make a LPSU based board where I can connect all fans except maybe the CPU fan to LPSU to see if I can further lower/improve what I have.  Those SMPS seasonics, especially the titanium series measure really low noise considering they are SMPS.  Regardless DSD512 makes it all worth it, of course my Dac the T+A is well known to be excellent with 512, which I can confirm truly is.

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  • 2 weeks later...
7 hours ago, numlog said:

Is there an explanation to this or just something you discovered yourself? 

most impressions online give the ''no moving parts, electrically quiet'' explanation as to why SSDs are best.

Tried it once with a small portion of my library and did not like the SQ, plus for larger libraries HDD's are cheaper and very dependable.  I also heard differences with 7200 RPM vs 5400 and stuck with 5400.

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