A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Lebouwsky]

Reading all these great posts reminds me of the period (about 1,5 years ago) where computers were tryed to be optimised for audiophiles like me by guys like you. The whole proces eventually led to products like the microrendu or sms200. This whole discussion gives me the feeling you're on another wave of optimisation. I read these posts with great interest and respect, but it makes me feel like observing from a bunker (again). Soldier on comrades!!! Blood, sweat and tears.

[Lebouwsky]

I have the same LAN-isolator that you do, the SOtM iSO-CAT6 and I am using it between my Mac Mini and SOtM-200. While the difference I can detect with it in the chain is small (meaning I could easily live without it), it seems to improve it and so I have kept it in. I have yet to try my optical isolators (FMCs) between Mac Mini and sMS-200 to see if they would make a difference.

 

That would be really interesting

[Lebouwsky]

I don't doubt SR7 is a fine power supply, go to know, thank you. But it still has no relevancy as to making a comparison of a server tweaked USB using todays superb power supplies as opposed to doing so with a renderer via Ethernet/USB. I also find USB chords irrelevant to my SQ. In fact, upon eliminating the 5Vbus, even distance is irrelevant between the Intona and Regen. Would be nice to see a comparison today with the newer power supplies. Everything does matter or does it?

 

The Supra USB cable made my system sound better quite a lot, and I'm not a cable fatishist.

[Lebouwsky]

So you ran a supra USB cable from your sMS-200 to your Schiit gungnir? And the cable made a difference in SQ?

 

Yes, a simple USB cable between the Sotm and the gungnir was replaced by the Supra. It made quite a significant improvement.

[Lebouwsky]

How can I determine a stray current and how can it be avoided? Quite off topic though.....

[Lebouwsky]

While my client naa is Intel nuc but running audiolinux. After music stopped, I opened settings and saw music device still highlighted and I would press OK to pick it up again naa connection. Then I could play another 1 hour plus before it would stop again. As you said very predictable behavior. If I don't click settings I got to continue clicking the song in Playlist until it plays again

 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Windows has an "advanced energy or power settings" where every hardware can be set to a "sleep mode" after a specific time. Make sure they're all set to "never" or something like that. Save that profile, restart and see if the problem is gone. Ecaxt terms may be different, this is by head.

[Lebouwsky]

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

Good stuff Rajiv.  Lots of changes going on.  When I hear you say "finally banished the last remnants of the slightly thin SOtM house sound" and "these just vanquished the last trace of thinness" I think to myself, what are we really trying to achieve with these devices?  If we think in painting terms, are we just painting different shades or colors of the music to achieve a sound that is more pleasing to our ears?

 

What is each reviewers ultimate goal when listening to these devices?  Are we looking to reduce noise as much as possible, thus revealing as much of the music as possible, are we looking for a sound that most closely represents live or an analog sourced recording, or are we looking for a sound that is most pleasing to our ear and does that qualification change?

 

There are certain components that contribute to a thin sound.  Solid state vs tube in the pre or amp is one.  Cable material is another.  And I wonder how you came to the conclusion that SOtM products sound thin because I've come to that same conclusion myself.  What is your point of reference in which a device sounds fatter that you are measuring against?  I found that the microRendu sounded fatter.  However the sms-200 was slightly clearer while also sounding thinner at the same time.  I think it may be hard to get one without the other, but I chose thin and clear vs. fat and clouded.  Analog music such as that from vinyl is one exception.  I think that can be clear and fat.  Almost buttery, but it's also noisy.  When I listen to music that's my reference point.  I can hear the difference between an analog sourced piece of vinyl and a digital sourced.  It's not hard, one sounds thinner than the other.  My end goal is to hear digital music as clearly as possible, with as little extraneous noise as possible, providing a clean, transparent, multi dimensional image that is buttery like analog.  That's my point of reference and critical in understanding why I think a device, a musical source or a setting may sound better than another.  It's the compass that guides my audio decisions.

 

I think you're post is spot on. And just like Austinpop states, it's my personal goal to achieve an enjoyable sound, not accurate reproduction. Besides the fat/thin colouring, I would like to add rich and lush sound to the equation, although I don't know what the opposite is in this spectrum. My hybrid AMR 77 amp icm with the dynaudio focus 260 does that. The Sotm added the detail and soundstage.

[Lebouwsky]

8 hours ago, austinpop said:

Hey folks,

 

The index for this massive topic is now (mostly) complete. Take a look at the first post.

 

Two points to make:

1. I had to leave out a lot of stuff. If you posted something profound, and I excluded it, please accept my apologies. As I said in the index: NOTE: If you would like to nominate a post to this index, just PM me.
2. Since the topics of mobo mods, SATA improvements, and Adnaco were not in my area of interest, I did not cover these. If someone would volunteer to create the index for these sections, I would gladly accept their input.

I will try to keep the index up to date from here on out.

Your contribution to this forum is beyond what can be expected from a mortal member. The way you communicate, besides contributing, is something I really appriciate too.

 

[Lebouwsky]

Is there a disadvantage when using a Y dc cable connecting two devices from 1 power supply or rail? Sotm sells these Y dc cables with their sps500 power supply.

[Lebouwsky]

44 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

Yes.  According to Paul Hynes...

 

"I would not recommend powering two items of equipment from one power supply as this will create a ground loop through the DC leads and the equipment interconnect. This will allow the ground return current from both items of equipment to mix and it will cause signal inter-modulation that is usually audible especially on a transparent system."

Thank you for this info. Paul has a great reputation, no doubt about that, has any one confirmed this by comparing both setups? Its theory vs practice. But the wish is the father of thought I guess.

[Lebouwsky]

37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

 

Any ideas on how to measure surface temperature accurately?

 

No it's too hot to touch for more than a few seconds.

With one of these, its an infrared thermo gun, not cheap though, but an engineer should get a hand on one. Unfortunately I don't own a lps-1.

[Lebouwsky]

8 hours ago, atxkyle said:

Thanks for the advice. I decided to get a dedicated Roon server (Intel NUC i3) and am now running it bare bones in Windows server 2012 r2 Essentials in minimal server mode with Audiophile Optimizer.  Also upgraded the microRendu to the 1.4 board with the upgraded clock.  These 2 changes definitely have taken my system to next level!

Are you saying that the server upgrade by itself (feeding a microrendu) was an upgrade in sound quality? Because if it does, it's one more argument that improving the packet data feeding the microrendu influences the sound. It's in conflict with the statement that the server can be as noisy as can be.

[Lebouwsky]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

Worry not, I can take a knock or two!  That said, I do like the logic of having this thread to cover the experimentation and listening impressions, with any 'other stuff' diverted into it's own thread.  Makes perfect sense to me.  I have tentative plans to try something SOtM 'clock chain' related myself (& maybe Mutec REF10 related), but this plan is on hold for a couple of months, as I am waiting for details of Devialet's new 'OS Core Intelligence' streamer board.  (I have a Devialet 1000 Pro)  So I am keen that this thread remains 'un-derailed' for as long as possible!  Meanwhile, I shall be a very interested observer.

Change your name from Confused to Open Minded please. Cheers

[Lebouwsky]

47 minutes ago, afrancois said:

Have you tried powering the LPS-1 with the sPS-500? I'm getting very good results doing so.

 

My sPS-500 with standard DC cable was clearly not as good as the LPS-1 with star quad. 

 

Now I'm waiting for the arrival of a star quad Y-cable for the sPS-500.

Really curious about your findings using a y-cable powering 2 components with one sps500. Some say it degrades the sound, while Sotm recommands it. And if it degrades, in what matter. I mean, it does save you money and rack space.

[Lebouwsky]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm OK with whatever you decide. You've done great work in this thread!

Will the old link still work?

[Lebouwsky]

4 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

That depends.  I plan on using HQPlayer to upsample.  I won't be going to DSD 512, but I'll be upsampling to PCM 352.  I'll let you know how things go.

Looking forward to your impressions.

[Lebouwsky]

8 hours ago, rickca said:

I always want to get the most current technology ... and I spent way too much time googling to even find that motherboard.  It's better to actually implement something proven and enjoy it.  You make faster progress that way.

 

Sometimes it's better to hold your breath and wait for the dust to settle down. It's a new wave of insight that will probably lead to further improved products from different manufacturers. I would love to be a pioneer, but it takes risks and therefore a very large wallet.

 

If one, with a wallet like mine, does want to invest, make sure it's future proof, like a good psu or pc case. Or experiment with "older" second hand stuff, which is just as fun.

 

Right now I'm experimenting with a 12v passive cooled celleron j1900 pc. Really fun, adjusting the proven techniques of the recent past. It costed me 150 euro's.

 

Just an opinion, with great respect to the pioneers out here.

[Lebouwsky]

This might help

 

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1128-can-the-guys-whove-used-emirfi-paper-sotm-3m-etc-post-photos-here-of-how-you-did-it/

[Lebouwsky]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

A brand new txUSBexp arrived in the mail yesterday.  It's breaking in now.

Is it a "server only" or in combination with a renderer.

[Lebouwsky]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

It's a single CPU machine running Roon and HQplayer on the same CPU and motherboard.  Server/renderer I guess.

 

 

Really looking forward to your findings

[Lebouwsky]

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

HQ Player upsampling PCM on a low power server with a proc and memory throttled to 800 MHz runs fine and sounds beautiful.  The only thing requiring some high processing power is DSD256 or 512 and I would argue that can be done with low power as well. Do you really need a high power video card to offload processing power?

This is my experience too. I used to run w10/hqplayer on my i5 laptop, where all files were upsampled to 192kHz pcm. The processor peaked to 8% max, which led me to my current low power dedicated server.

 

It's an asrock q1900-itx, with a passive cooled Celeron j1900 and 4gb ram, powered by a external psu. I'm using a bridged lan configuration, feeding my sms200 in NAA mode. It does the job very easy, processor is at 15% and memory 50%, which has more to do with unwanted w10 services then it has to do with HQplayer. Fedilizer could not kill that, but will try AO next week.

 

Powering this machine is done with different smps, ranging from ~100 watt to my current ~30 watt. This seems to be enough juice for the job, so now I'm quite confident to power it by a Sotm sps-500, which is rated at 50watt.

 

This route is relatively cheap, fun to do and gives a very good result soundwise. I can highly recommand it. 

[Lebouwsky]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

What SMPS are you currently using?

Just a simple switching power supply of 12 volt I had laying around, often seen with laptops and that kind of stuff. This one was used in an old mediaplayer, but eBay/Amazon/etc offers a lot of these products with huge range of specs. Just make sure the voltage meets the spec of the mb.

 

It's a real bad smps, I can hear a high frequency coming from the bank itself and through my speakers. But in this experimenting phase it does the job.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00DKSI0S8/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1507631166&sr=8-4&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=power+supply+12v&dpPl=1&dpID=41kaSAMcYWL&ref=plSrch

[Lebouwsky]

7 hours ago, lmitche said:

Here it is, the longest post in the history of CA and 3/4 of it is marketing material from Chord.  Roy, you should know better.  I am disappointed.

To me, this is an inappropriate reaction to a post of some one who has contributed a lot to this forum and is always willing to help indiviuals, basing this on my own experience.

 

Your words also imply something which are based on a guess. You should know better.

[Lebouwsky]

13 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

The fundamental premise of this thread seems to be that bridging on a PC has "massively" better "SQ" than going through an ethernet switch. Not only does this massively go against my own personal experience but.....

 

Unfortunately my experience is the same as @jabbr. Although I would not call my system ultra high end, it’s far from mediocre. When I implemented the bridged mode I thought I could hear an improvement, but now switching back and forward I cant distinguise them anymore.

 

I’m from the “trust your ears camp”, but I also learned that a change in my system can only be called an upgrade after a longer period of listening. I think jumping to fast in conclusion is my pitfall in this hobby. I can imagine more peolple recoignize themselves in this enthousiastic behaviour. 

 

[Lebouwsky]

1 hour ago, Cooler said:

3. Possible use music PC without internet at all 

Roon wont work for now, but HQPlayer still works.

Funny because I experimented with this too. HQ player runs on a w10 server (ssd) with dual lan bridged, sms200 is directly connected to server. I use a screen and an optical mouse to control hq player, works fine for me. I can unplug ethernet from server and hqplayer still sees the sms200 as a NAA device.

 

Some observations:

 

* music stored on a separate nas (far away from audio system) which hqplayer w10 server can acces, sounds just as good (maybe even slightly better) then music stored locally on the ssd w10 server when using hqplayer.

 

* music stored locally on ssd using hqplayer sounds just as good with the ethernet cable plugged or unplugged.

 

* the ssd on the server scatters high frequency noice which I’m sensitive for and can spot quite easally.

 

Based on this I’ll keep the ethernet pluggen in so I can acces nas. First of all this make life more conveniant (central point of all kinds of data/ files in house network).

 

Second, now I can experiment with small 32 or 64 gb sdcard or usb stick  and install w10 / hqplayer on it. The goal is to remove the noisy ssd entirely. This is something w10 supports. I only upsample pcm to 192/24, so this doesn’t require a fast server.