A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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51 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Very interesting info on digital audio from Gordon Rankin .

 

 

Rick ?

 

Ah, is this the legend that had the white macbook with the 80 TB harddrive?

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18 hours ago, lmitche said:

Roy,  I don't know enough about the differences between Intel and ARM cpu designs to offer an informed opinion. My conjecture is that ARM CPUs most often operate in mobile environments and Intel designs in more complex power and connectivity environments on desktops and in datacenters, with laptops an exception. If it is correct that Intel cpus are designed for harsher environments it wouldn't surprise me if there are engineering differences that harden the Intel design. Perhaps those translate into a SQ advantage?

 

The Asus Tinker board looks a lot like a Raspberry Pi. I have almost zero experience with this class of machine with audio except for the old SMS-100 and a short time with the original microrendu. Both are greatly surpassed by today's standards. It will be fun to learn more about the Asus solution over time.

 

We can't discount the impact of a low latency OS in either environment. I don't know of a low latency OS in the ARM world, but haven't done much, if any research into this topic.

There is a Audiolinux version available for the Beaglebone black, that has an ARM processor. Don't think it will run in RAM mode, due to the low amounts of it in the BBB. But Audiolinux focusses on low latency.

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19 hours ago, romaz said:

 

When I was first sent an Innuos Zenith SE for evaluation, as I posted on another forum, I was impressed by it, especially in comparison to a dCS Network Bridge that I also had on hand for evaluation, but it was only after I followed the SE with a tX-USBultra that I felt my SQ had elevated to a level where the purchase of the SE was justified.  It was in combination with the tX-USBultra where I felt the SE was convincingly superior to the dCS Network Bridge and what I previously owned.  And just like you, I own both the Chord Blu 2 and Chord DAVE DAC.

 

Here is what is really interesting to me.  As I have posted, I was quite surprised when this cheap AudioLinux-based NUC that I stumbled upon outperformed my much more expensive SE but only when I powered my NUC with my DR SR7.  When powered by an SR rail from my SR7, I felt the NUC still had a slight edge over the SE but with the DR rail, the superiority of the NUC was incontrovertible.  During blinded tests, friends and family unanimously chose the NUC as sounding better than the SE.  

 

At the present time, I own 5 SR7 rails but only one of these rails is a DR (double regulated) rail.  When I had my SE, I was using my DR rail on the tX-USBultra and it's impact was clearly heard.  As I shifted my lone DR rail to my NUC, I was forced to use an SR (single regulated) rail from my SR7 on my tX-USBultra and I was quite surprised/disappointed to find that my tX-USBultra was now resulting in a clear step backward with respect to dynamics and tonal richness and smoothness.  It's not like I was powering the tX-USBultra with a cheap switching PSU but that's how the DR rail made the SR rail sound like and this highlights the importance of PSUs.  In my experience, good power still trumps good clocking.  With my DR rail powering the NUC, my system sounds better without my tX-USBultra and so at this time, I have my NUC directly connected to my Chord M-Scaler. 

 

As luck would have it, Paul Hynes made me aware that one of his SR7 buyers had grown tired waiting for their SR7 and it happened to be an SR7 with 2 DR rails and so he asked me if I was interested in taking it on.  Of course, I said yes and while I don't expect to receive this SR7 until some time in early 2019, after these recent revelations, I feel like I have struck gold. 

 

Just an update on these NUCs that Larry and I have been working on, we are planning on testing different NUC platforms including different CPUs, RAM with different timing, various storage media for the Roon database, etc., to see if we can agree on an ideal platform for both RoonServer and RoonBridge.  I will also be sending one of my NUC boards to SOtM for clock replacement to see where that leads.  While SQ is based on more than just latency, this is obviously an important metric and so Larry ran some latency tests on the Celeron NUC that we both own and got average latency readings in the 4-5us range.  Not as good as the 2.5us of latency of the Pink Faun 2.16 but very close and considering that this was achieved with hardware that cost less than $200 is astonishing.  

Great stuff! Been following this thread for some time, really interested in the NUC approach, but totally lost on what version I should buy. A generation 7 celeron? Or buy an i3 or i5 because the much faster processor will give lower latency? Or would the faster processor generate more noise? Would a fanless Asus be as good as the Intel in Akasa case? Expect that the Asus will have a better BIOS, but maybe no 'magic sauce'? Is the magic happening in the ddr3 ram? Buy ram the uses the lowest current? So much to think about...

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36 minutes ago, Cooler said:

 

Hello @romaz. Ok, so let me summarise a bit your two posts. I understand, that its not easy to compare, what you heard a year before and now, but can we add some rating to have it simpler. 

Lets say, that 100 points has Zenith SE -> NUC Celeron endpoint

 

Can you add points to these other options, which you tested. I will try to write them, but looks like, you have so many, so if i missed something, just add it

 

Also im not sure, which OS you used here and there, i suppose on Mac Pro you used macOS, on HP workstation AudioLinux and on Zenith their own OS.

 

[100] Zenith SE -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] HP workstation -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] Mac Pro -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] NUC i7 -> NUC Celeron endpoint

 

[XXX] Zenith SE -> NUC i7 endpoint

[XXX] HP workstation -> NUC i7 endpoint

[XXX] Mac Pro  -> NUC i7 endpoint

 

[XXX] Zenith SE -> sotm sms neo

[XXX] HP workstation -> sotm sms neo

[XXX] Mac Pro  -> sotm sms neo

 

[XXX] Zenith SE -> SOtM sNH-10G -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] HP workstation -> SOtM sNH-10G -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] Mac Pro -> SOtM sNH-10G -> NUC Celeron endpoint

 

[XXX] Zenith SE -> Linear Solution's switch -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] HP workstation -> Linear Solution's switch -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] Mac Pro -> Linear Solution's switch -> NUC Celeron endpoint

 

[XXX] Zenith SE -> Netgear switch -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] HP workstation -> Netgear switch -> NUC Celeron endpoint

[XXX] Mac Pro -> Netgear switch -> NUC Celeron endpoint

 

....

....

 

 

 

 

 

 

As attractive this may seem, to have numbers for all thes configs, relative rankings, note that these are all very subjective. I've fiddling around with my system, tweaking lot of parts, and continuously notice differences, think it is getting better every time, and then some itch makes me go back to a more simple setup, and again I perceive it as 'better'.

 

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2 hours ago, dtossan said:

Great experience summary.

Where do you get your R-Cores?

Den

 

Doesn't 'cheap Chinese LPSU' mean a Chinese lpsu with toroidal transformer, an 'R-core', also a cheap Chinese lpsu but with an R-core transformer?

 

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On 10/30/2018 at 6:17 AM, romaz said:

 

For a Roon Server NUC, the more power the better and so this NUC looks like it would be better than the i7 NUC I have.  The following NUC with an i7 that has a TDP of 100w may be better still but it costs more money:

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/kits/nuc8i7hvk.html

 

If a small form factor isn't crucial, it may be better to go with an i7 or Xeon on a mini-ITX board and place it in a fanless Streacom case.  You could then power it with HDPlex's latest 400w DC-ATX converter:

 

https://www.hdplex.com/hdplex-400w-hi-fi-dc-atx-power-supply-16v-24v-wide-range-voltage-input.html

 

I'm still not sure I know where the sweet spot is.

 

By the way, I highly doubt that the fact that a i7 NUC has a higher TDP (thermal design power) will result in better sound. The 'higher power' should be read as 'higher computing power'. So it is able to do more computations than the Celeron processor. TDP or energy consumption will most likely only have a a negative impact, the switching voltage converters on the motherboard produce more noise at higher currents.

Note also that TDP is a sort of maximum energy consumption, not the consumption during idling. An i7 that is only running a stripped down Linux and some audioplayer like Roon bridge is probably only consuming 5W or something (for instance: https://www.anandtech.com/show/11198/gigabyte-gbbki7ha7500-kaby-lake-brix-review/6)

 

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What are the experiences with the original Intel NUCs with respect to the noise of the fan? I'm following this thread and contemplating buying a NUC, but am not keen on a fan equiped computer in my livingroom. I know there are fanless cases available aftermarket, like Akasa, or fanless mini pc's from other brands.

Do these Celeron NUCs produce some noise? Or are they virtually inaudible?

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22 hours ago, Cooler said:

I wanted to try Nuc as roon server, but with surprise found, that all nucs are with 1 ethernet port. 

Nobody mentioned that!

 

I wanted to connect it(nuc) to roon endpoint directly to eliminate any switch between.

 

Do you know guys nuc versions with two ethernet ports?

 

The Zotac C series seems to have dual ethernet ports.

https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/ci329-nano

https://www.zotac.com/product/mini_pcs/zbox-c-series/all

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1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

I have a mini ITX from April of this year and the NUC sounds better with a similar proc. Both running Audiolinux. Although the ITX is running gui and NUC is running headless. 

 

Not sure about the Atom but "suspect" it's not as good. 

 

 

So that means two things are different, NUC vs mini itx, and headless vs GUI. So you're saying a NUC with headless AL sounds better to you, compared to mini itx with GUI AL.?!?!

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Is this a result of what was earlier mentioned as a 'flaky bios'?

The Intel NUC's are reported to have 'flaky bios'. And are not available as fanless out of the box. There is some DIY'ing involved with a third party fanless case.

I choose an MSI cubi silent, that is fanless, has an i5 7200u processor, max 32GB memory (maybe handy for large AL ramboot versions) and was recently put down in price from 460 to 250 euro.

But now I'm still thinking, should I have bought the real Intel NUC, for the NUC goodness. Is that magical stuff only present in the Intel NUC, or is it just the small form factor of the NUC (size of the motherboard) that is the same in the 'other' NUC's from MSI/ASUS/Zotac/FitPC etc?

Still glad with my choice because the bios/UEFI from MSI is working fine for now.

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

This was a quick test we ran, when I came to drop off Eric's SR-7. I brought my new i7 NUC with me so we could have a quick listen.

 

If you read my NUC impressions, I've made the point repeatedly that the NUC over the SE was a subtle improvement, which I heard in my system, only with my Dell running AL as the server, and a TLS OCXO switch in the path.

 

In Eric's system, we didn't have a reclocked switch in the path, and we ran the NUC from the bridged port of the SE running Roon Core with the 1.4.0 firmware.

 

In this configuration, the difference was indeed small. However, the key finding, that Eric agreed with, was that we were achieving essentially similar level of SQ on his system with a NUC costing 10% of his SE.

 

Finally, don't discount the benefit of the Tranquility Base. Whatever that thing does, it makes a positive impact on SQ. We've done an experiment in the past where we stacked up all his spaghetti in a neat wertical sandwich, and moved it on and off the Base. Damned if it didn't sound better.

Aren't you trying to cover up the blind listening test, in which you pointed the Zenith SE as better sounding compared to the NUC?

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12 hours ago, Volfram said:

Has anyone tried to bridge a MSI cubi 3 silent S?

https://www.msi.com/Desktop/Cubi-3-Silent-S-7m

 

It does support Legacy boot according to MSI support, see attached, for those intrested in using it with ROON ROCK.

Seems like a neat, cheap, easy and silent bridged ROCK server option.

 

reply1_377289_20181217101516.pdf

Yes, I have the i5 version of the MSI cubi 3. Works well.