Jump to content
IGNORED

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


Message added by The Computer Audiophile

Important and useful information about this thread

Posting guidelines

History and index of useful posts

Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

Correct but without galvanic isolation sounds better according to Sotm.  Hence the performance was more important.

 

 The major function of them was to reclock/regen the USB signal, hence similar function.

This means SOTM couldn't control the jitter when using galvanic isolation and used the Regen technology instead. Nothing wrong with that,  but the primary goal of stopping leakage currents from the computer to the DAC job is incomplete. 

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
  • 3 weeks later...
3 hours ago, Deusvult said:

Has anybody compared the Mutec MC3+ USB to the SOtM dX-USB HD Ultra? In my setup the sMS-200 Ultra is connected to the Mutec MC3+ USB, which then feeds my Devialet 400 through AES (which should be the best input for the Devialet). Would the presumably better clock of the dX make a significant difference?

 

I am also considering to at one stage add a master clock (e.g. Mutec REF 10) to my setup. As the clock signal is then coming from this device, does the original clock boards of the components it feeds matter or would the end result be the same regardless of it’s a Mutec or a dX being fed?

The SOTM doesn't feature galvanic isolation on the USB input whereas the Mutec does. It's also likely, the AES3 has transformer to isolate as well, but not 100% sure.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
15 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

The isolation transformer with floating secondary is the same as the CA famous Topaz that I am sure that you have heard about a lot. It will isolate the grounds completely between ac mains and your deives. The mains are unbalanced (for example 120v/120v or 60v/60v). A balanced isolation transformer with grounded secondary will ensure a balanced ac mains (se above) but the secondary is connected to ground and therefore the isolation is not as good between the ac main and the connected devices, but it is safer.

 

To give you a simple advice. If you are using mainly a digital chain with not too powerful analogue devices in the chain look for a isolation transformer with floating secondary for starters. If you have big amps and subs look for a isolation transformer with grounded secondary, such as the balanced isolation transformer. 

 

Now, I do not want to make this complicated, but there are another great option as well. A balanced isolation transformer can be turned into a balanced isolation transformer with floating secondary as well. However, this option is much more unsafe than other options since both primary and secondary are live and secondary winding not grounded. You are not very well protected if anything goes wrong. Anyway, IMO this in absolutely not an option for a beginner.

There's a little difference between the Altair and (some) Topaz. The difference is the capacitance between primary and secondary windings in the isolation transformer and makes a big difference to stop noise.  

 

At 50Hz, the hum maker, can cross the windings according to this formula. 

 

I= V/Z

V= 230V, Z = 1/(2 PI f C) 

f = 50Hz C = capacitance in Farad.

 

I saw on YouTube a video where leakage capacitance for a simple isolation transformer was 160pf. This allows 12uA of noise to pass to the amplifier and can create hum.

The Topaz has 0.0005pf an order of leakage current thousands less, which inverts to thousands of ohms higher. 

For higher frequencies, the opposition is even more. 

The Topaz then is chosen more for its killing of hum, common mode noise rather than isolation methods. It's possible to use ungrounded or grounded secondaries and keep the noise out. 

If you could please publish the capacitance of the Altair to plug into the formula. 

If the CA member is in Japan, the neutral floats above ground, which avoids the grounded neutral problem of the West. Another topic! 

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
  • 3 weeks later...
1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Here is some more info: https://teac.jp/jp/product/cg-10m/feature

 

I still do not see any phase noise data, but maybe that will arrive when the specifications page goes live.

 

BTW - @One and a half - this might be a friendlier place to discuss it than the thread you created. :P

I should have started a cable thread ya think? ;)

 

The release date is not that far away, the phase error plots should be out by then. The Cybershaft for its price is very good performance.  I've placed a UD-503B in the shopping cart at Amazon and looking for a 50 Ohm BNC/BNC cable, shouldn't be that hard to find a 1m.

 

Found one for AUD15.00. 

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
27 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

But positioning the ISO REGEN right at the input of the DAC--especially with the included USPCB A>B Adapter--is key to preserving signal integrity and impedance match.  So aside from excess heat and other potential emissions, sticking a long cable on the box is a sonic step backwards.  

Yes the ISO REGEN needs a power supply cable to it, but otherwise it, with the USPCB add no spaghetti other than themselves to the chain.  No second USB cable to buy.

This post sounds like an advert, or infomercial. 

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
1 minute ago, Johnseye said:

 

So just like that other server, the SGM 2015 which is $18,800 plus tax.  We know we can build a similar, if not better one for about $4k or less.

I can make a billy cart for the kids and it can make travel across a road possible. I don't think you realise how many man-hours went into the development of the SGM server. Once the solution is there, it's easy to copy huh.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

There seems to be genuine affection for this product, especially from several senior CA'ers who've been on CA for many years. 

 

Is there a history here? Was the SGM a product conceived and/or developed by CA'ers? 

 

Just curious.

Geoffrey Armstrong wrote an odyssey if you like on the development of the SGM, it's here in pages at CA. If and when the CA search tool is working, perhaps key in 'Geoffrey + Pink Faun + server' might find the thread that way. Been rather frustrated with the search of late.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
1 minute ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

 

I don't expect we'll see a motherboard designed and built for audio purposes hit the mainstream market.  If anything manufacturers of audio equipment are going to be doing this, and some are with DACs or companies like Aurender with their music servers.  Sound Galleries, as mentioned previously has customized an aftermarket motherboard with higher quality parts (Mundorf caps and an OCXO system clock), but it's not a fully customized board. @One and a half correct me if I'm wrong.  Many of us just can't afford that kind of expense for a server.  We've been finding boards through trial and error, word of mouth and theory.  Then customizing them through SOtM with better resistors, caps and clocks and using better power supplies.  The same thing Sound Galleries did.  One thing I haven't seen discussed is how to improve power delivery on a motherboard beyond what I just mentioned.

 

 

 

If you analyse the development of the SGM, the main component which was difficult to 'get right' was the power supply. There are an enormous amount of electrolytic filter caps, very much like the configuration of a high power amplifier and then some. Commercial motherboards just have too many power supplies for just about anything, the smaller the board, the count's less, but won't the processor also reduce in power. I think audio processing can be just as intensive as a CAD program, just upsample anything to DSD256+.

No I don't think there will be a purpose built mobo built, but shrink the function down enough and you can call it an Allo x, ultrarendu or SMS-200. All you can do from a DIY perspective at the moment is to provide the best as affordable power supply for the motherboard, with a slow ramp up on all voltage rails and isolate the PC from every signal that goes in and out.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
  • 4 weeks later...

Dedicated lines keep the noisy appliances away from audio equipment purely by distance. Further away the better, so longer the dedicated line the better, serious conducted noise has no strength over a long distance, it's a classic increase the distance and the energy reduces by the square.

 

Keep in mind that audio components make a lot of AC noise themselves! As for 6AWG wiring, close to 16mm, and self power factor correcting, I need to think about that one. A larger cable has less resistance, but increased capacitance, but compared to what. It's possible the 6AWG is shielded or has a coat of armour to increase capacitance. There's no data on Jim Weil's site, other than propaganda, another topic I suppose.

 

I did find this of interest on this page.

 

"Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.
Answer: “The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”

 

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
5 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Other stuff:

a]  Custom receptacles UL listed for 6AWG, seem unlikely.

b]  Low power line source impedance is a good thing.

c]  Long or short, big or little power lines have nothing to do with Power Factor Correction.

d]  Power runs needing to be 15 to 20 feet long, is nonsense.

e]  Capacitance  between power line conductors is trivial.

 

a) It's possible to split the cable cores in two  and crimp using 2 x 12(?) gauge crimplugs for the connections on a standard receptacle. The 6AWG was flexible type. The earth connection at the receptacle is very weak to have two crimplugs, but depends on the manufacturer.

b) Agreed, a multitude of circuit breakers has little resistance but the cabling adds impedance, so a direct feed at the main switchboard is the same source impedance as the main switch, it's the best that can be done for a house. Unless in Japan, you have your own High Voltage to 100V Transformer, now we're talking.

c) Yes, I read this on the Steve Hoffman forum. If a cable were so good to have that much capacitive properties, it would be sh$t to use, the spikes on energising the cable would be horrible, add to that ringing, yuk.

d) For conducted emissions, the further away, the better, IMHO. Depends on the frequency to a degree.

e) Yes, see c)

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
44 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Actually one 6AWG conductor equals four 12AWG conductors.

Now don't say that you read it here ( the inspector might frown on the idea).

Each dual receptacle has slots for 2 Hot & 2 Neutral conductors (some nice ones like the Cooper 5252 have 4 slots).

So two 10AWG pig-tails equals one 7AWG. Polaris makes some very nice pig-tail connectors.

Understood.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
3 hours ago, KingRex said:

I am by no means any expert.  I have my opinnions I have developed by personal trial and conversations with a few industry professionals. I have developed a belief that power conditioning is best not used, unless absolutly necessary.  I need it.  I have dirty power at my house.  My Rega Osiris mechanically hummed so loud, it could be heard in the next room.  I took it to two friends houses, it was dead quit there.  I have been forced to seek out power conditioning.   No one wants to spend $1k to $7k and more unless necessary.  I did not. 

 

My CJ also hummed very loud.  I took it apart, floated the transformers on sorborhane and added sound dampener material to the covers.  It still made to much noise.  I tried the Syncro, it took out the mechanical noise but killed the music.  I bought the tripp lite.  Step in the right direction. I got the Topaz and it worked.  

 

TAS and Stereophile make it appear power conditioners are some sort of magic device that better all our stereo gear. They make it seem every stereo will suddenly have an expanded sound stage, more full bass, extended treble etc.  I don't believe that is true.  It is my opinion most alter the music but not in beneficial ways.  I have personally heard a veil or compression of dynamics from most everything I tried.  Why put a bunch of electronic equipment in front of your music if not needed.  It might not be necessary. 

 

That is a pretty round about way of saying, I don't know why a line isolation transformer sounds good on some components and not other.    I don't know why my amp benefitted, but not my preamp, phonograph preamp or music server.  

 

I will say this, the guy who sold me the Isotek Syncro for the Rega brought over other Isotek components to allow me to plug in all my equipment.  After plugging it all in, he even admitted the effect was negative and only the integrated amp was benefiting.  

 

I am fortunate I am an electrician by trade.  I have had the ability to run multiple dedicated lines from my panel to my rack.  I put the Topaz transformer in my basement with a dedicated feed from it to a quad of receptacles in my wall. I also had a second quad of receptacles with nothing in-between them and the panel.  I was able to switch all my equipment back and forth, then listen.  I ended up only feeding my CJ amp with the Topaz.  It worked great for that unit.  When I sold that amp, the Topaz did not work with my Altec.  They actually got more loud.  They did not like the transformer at all.  They made strange sounds.  That sent me down a new path.  In the end my cord direct from the panel to a custom distribution box with an Akiko was the trick.  All my components perform best when feed this way.  When I unplug the Akiko, it is hard to tell its gone.  At certain times of the day the amps will hum loud.  Plug the Akiko back in and 10 minutes later things calm down and the mechanical noise goes away.  

 

I will close by saying this, if a power cord or interconnect can have a heard alteration in the sound of playback, just think what an active component can do.  

 

Another member on CA is having problems with amplifier and DAC hum  It's interesting the CJ humming was stopped by the Topaz. That iso transformer is a common mode noise killer, the point being is that all grounds need to come back to the Topaz in a star pattern. Daisy chaining power strips not allowed, nor is floating the neutral, bond it to ground at the Topaz.

Some members report reduced noise and heat with their Topaz by wiring the output in balanced mode, requiring a 2 pole GFCI on the output. 

If there's little difference or worse using a Topaz, then the wiring topology is introducing common mode noise from another source indirectly, via a back door to an amp or DAC. SMPS are typical noise makers.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
5 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

Why do so many members seem to think they need Isolation transformers , balanced power supplies etc. ?

Is the mains artifact rejection of the gear they use so mediocre, or the mains supply so polluted by others, or perhaps due to poor quality LED lighting etc.  ?

Getting rid of all SMPS wallwarts, or at least earthing the 0 volts side of their power supply is a good first step.

Again. An isolation transformer's main purpose is to remove common mode noise. Does your place have an exemption certificate from common mode noise?

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
6 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

I'm running 10 awg with 20amp breakers.  No issue there.  My main concern was when I'm coming off the wire with a spade whether I'm choking the current.  Also the spades aren't copper, or maybe they're tin plated copper.  A twisted pigtail gets better contact than a crimped spade.  It's probably negligible but when you go to the trouble of rewiring you don't want to do anything which would negatively impact the work. 

 

No, you're not choking current.  This motor's terminal box is rated at 4000A, , there are two of these on the motor. The cables are about two inches in diameter. There's no choking, indeed these are tested for continuity in milliohms.

 

image.thumb.png.da93d00d9df38067c907504854ca9d18.png

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
1 hour ago, KingRex said:

Why are you using a spade.  Get rid of them. They are not helping the sound. Turn of the breaker, cut off the spade, strip the wire back about 3/4 inch and put them under the clamp. Tighten them pretty firm. Once you have them set strait and ready to screw back on the box, check the torque.   Didn't you say you have Porter Ports or Furutech.  They have a clamp, easy to do. You may have to put a twist on the ground. Not sure if you have a screw only or clamp there too.

 

I will try and post a couple pix on how to wire receptacles with pig tails or using large gauge wire. 

Is this 'advice' for real? You'd sacrifice a gas tight joint by introducing a hot spot? SMH.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

Good work there @Johnseye glad to hear that you're hearing nothing! Little noise that is.

 

I can't make out the rating on the wire at the H end, does it have 105C on it or something higher perhaps? 75C wire on a Topaz is not enough, it starts to be really soft, there's something on that advice in an old manual, and I can back this up. I pulled out a 1kVA and the 75C cables were really, soft and sloppy, for the 2.5kVA Topaz, the treatment is Teflon SPC cables, which are rated an overkill to 300C, so should be fine!

 

A Topaz on timber is going to rattle, since the transformer vibrates as a natural action to rid the system of common mode noise. The noise is converted to heat and vibration. Timber dries out and the fibres aren't that cosy with heat, so something more solid like bolted to a 3/8in steel plate.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
4 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

 

I have a TOPAZ 91001-22  (1kva/.001pF) connected to the wall and a DIY bar with OYAIDE plugs connected to the TOPAZ. 

DAC, PREAMP, AMP and MACmini are connected to the power bar, so yes all goes to the Topaz, so far it makes the sound a lot cleaner than with the TOPAZ 91002-32 which i believe it needs to be fixed to achieve its best.

 

Any suggestions to fix it? Inside it looks exactly as the one you showed

 

 

 

  88E31DD2-F18E-4ECA-BC59-7F9DCB2F9536.JPG.thumb.JPG.456cfd58e4cc47cfd0effcf91cf62d89.JPG

I don't understand that the 91002-32 needs to be fixed, can you explain further?

 

The 91002-32 is a 2.4kVA device, by fixed, do you mean fixed wiring, given the 20A rating? Mine isn't wired in permanently at the moment (has the correct protection on it though), and it works fine. The difference between a 0.0005pF and a 0.001pf should be audible since the attenuation for common mode noise is double. 

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
3 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

 

 

I don't know what is going on with it, but i can say that the 1KVA .001pF makes my system sound better, i am suspecting the 9100-32 when refurbished they did not ended up as it should be, it makes the sound thin, noise and cold

 

I took it to an electrical engineer, but he is waiting for me to bring the "good" one to compare inside

 

I read you did not like what it did to your end, Have you had this issue?

 

 

Ah, there's an audible difference using the 0.0005 for the better, small difference but noticeable.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

This is what worries me a lot with Music Servers, streamers with USB outputs and has resurfaced again with the Zenith and the QX-20 although it can happen with any DAC-Server combo, IIRC an Aurender W20 with something else, was it a BADA Mark 2 perhaps. Everything is all plugged in and quiet. No music. There would have been correspondence with either manufacturer and slow a solution could be resolved, but in the meantime you can't listen to either.

 

Strange there rarely seems to a problem with a computer (other than Linux for DSD512 comes to mind) where things can go pear shaped with a DAC, with the exception of poor cabling, driver or OS issues. This is the reason to buy a transport in the first place.

 

Granted it's not possible to provide compatibility with every DAC ever built, but there must be a specification or rule or other condition to nominate, our music Server will work with DACs that can accept DoP, but not to DSD512 for example, or it only works with FLAC, but not AIFF, give a clue! Lumin are very good, what sample rates and files are played. Spot on.

 

Now here is what makes the blood boil, from the Innuous site:

image.thumb.png.9440e14235270358b05add34fb65dde5.png

Configuring the DAC output, a total blank section. Poor. Bad. Slack.  I was considering a closer look at Innuous but this, just leaves me cold. I'd throw tomatoes at this mob, totally unprofessional. An oversight, or we're waiting for details to finish, sorry doesn't cut it. I'm going in hard and critical on this, because for the prices, the support needs to be better. 

 

The alternative is to provide legacy S/PDIF or AES3 and use USB at your own risk it seems.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Sean Jacobs does some very nice work.

 

 Attached is a photo of a partially completed monoblock version of my 15W Class A Power Amplifier design that he custom built for a Rock Grotto forum member several years ago. Up till then , all the other forum members builds were with both channels in the same 2U rack case, with the transformers and Regulated PSU PCBs in a separate 2U rack case.

I wish that I could do builds that look as good as those from Sean !

 

Click on the image twice for a large image.

1st Monoblock 15W Class A-Professionally built .jpg

That's a nice job, plenty of space to breathe. Perhaps some more steel to divide the transformer from the rest would be the icing on the cake, and gain losses of a few db of common mode noise.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...