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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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1 minute ago, tboooe said:

Alex, hope you are enjoying your vacay!

 

Hey, I can I just open a tab with you guys?  That way you can just send me whatever new products you make and we dont have to deal with silly things like invoices, placing orders, etc? :D

UpTone Bar and Grill (and audio products,too) ?

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38 minutes ago, afrancois said:

I don't own a P5 or P10, but as far as I've read you will not always benefit from a re generator. Much depends on the quality of the AC that enters your home. While a PS Audio power plant seems something very interesting, I would never buy it without testing it. Even while many people report positive results.

 

 

 

An AC regenerator will ALWAYS improve the power delivery to your components.   Delivery includes lower impedance as well as clean.  

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2 minutes ago, afrancois said:

I know, I've seen the Youtube post of Paul McGowan, but given the cost of a P5 or P10, a home audition is necessary. I'm not convinced that it will always be better. It can system dependent as well.

 

 

OK.   Keep throwing PSUs and fixers at your power and ground issues.  

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8 hours ago, nbpf said:

I guess the question is by how much? Can you elaborate a little bit on your experience with AC regenerators? What was your initial setup? Which regenerators have you tried or added to your initial setup? Thanks, nbpf

 

Wow, I was traveling today and there were 15 or so more posts since then!

 

I’ve found the PS regenerators helpful in my system / location.   We tend to have poor quality power - up to 4% THD and definite power factor issues.   So time of day and phase of the moon would change the SQ. 

 

The dedicated circuit wasn’t feasible at the time but I did make that move eventually.   Ted, you can have many runs but see which type panel you have and keep them on the same phase.  And put the fridge and microwave etc on the other!

 

i started with a Chang Lightspeed and then a Transparent Ref

conditioner.   I then tried a PS Power Plant Premier and ended up with 3 of them.  @austinpop mentioned not putting your amp on an UNDERSIZED regenerator.  I added the undersized caveat. Despite the specs for current delivery etc that are great with these things, I think they over rate them.  I now have a P10 for the front end a P10 for the amp only.  The P5 isnt even big enough for a front end with very many components.  I wouldn’t put

more than a few hundred watts load on it for it to perform its best.  The PPP and P10 have the same 1500 watt rating but the P10 is fine for my amp where the PPP wasn’t.  There is a reason why PS has introduced the P20!  I’ve also heard a solid demo on the big Stromtank unit out of

Germany.   Similar idea but wicked expensive and probably better than the PS.  Also, PS is now using DSD to generate the signal and not PCM.  ?  When it comes to

power, more is always better.  Oversized PSUs in components are usually better for SQ.  Heat be damned. 

 

I snagged a Topaz off eBay to try.  750VA 0.0005 cap -31 model and put my whole front end on it in place of the P10.  Hundreds vs thousands of $ is worth a try.  It collapsed the soundstage noticeably.  No question.  The newer PS units have some measurement and graphical capabilities so I plugged it into the Belkin power strip that I hardwired into the Topaz to see what I could see.  The THD was a little lower than the wall outlet and the waveform was just as bad.  Flat topped, skewed sine wave.  I dedicated the Topaz to my HQPlayer server and LPSU powered drives.  My NAAs are powered by Uptone JS-2s into a PS regenerator

 

I now also find find no difference with or without any DC neg grounding.  We do it in our industrial equipment because we never know what type of power environment it will live in, and factories are baaaaaad.  I plugged in a system once and watched the cable start to melt from the outlet being wired incorrectly at the panel!  We make a “transceiver” for 5 Hz - 5 MHz incorporating both a DDCDAC and an ADC so we also use a pretty serious Powervar power conditioner.  But, I think by now we all know about good grounding and power.   

 

So for my system, which consists of generally well engineered components, the benefits are there. Better soundstage, longer decays.  Does everybody’s system let you hear the ambience after a piece is over and before they cut off the recording?  Like the sheet

music fluttering and the whum whum whum of the HVAC. 

 

Maybe we should start a thread on Regenerators but I won’t do it, I’m convinced they are good in my system.  P10s are almost always available at US$2999.  P5s are almost never on sale and I can’t figure out why.  Maybe they cost to much to make?  Wouldn’t be the first product to suffer that fate.  I don’t know if they even make the P3 any more.  Maybe you could

power a headphone setup with it.  

 

Apologies in advance for typos, run on or incomplete sentences, etc.  I hate phone typing!

 

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On 3/21/2018 at 9:06 PM, austinpop said:

 

And yet... I find that plugging my amp directly to my dedicated circuit, rather than through the P5, gives me better dynamics. There is clearly more going on here than can be explained by average power or current demand. At some level, it underscores the need for oversized power supplies. I think music makes instantaneous peak current demands that are many orders of magnitude higher than the mean. This is my best explanation for what I am hearing.

 

I agree that we’d expect the regens to provide enough current - P10 is suppose to spit out 75A for some amount of time - but you have me curious again to try my amp direct.  Like you, I’m thinking we also under estimate the requirements of our components on an instantaneous basis.  Do we need the rise time of lightning?  ⚡️? ?

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@One and a half  All good info, thanks.   I never tried plugging either of the regens into the Topaz to run my system, just to use the power analyzer in there to see what the output of the Topaz looked like.  

 

It would be great if I could tame my incoming power issues passively.  I have just one SMPS in my server plugged into the Topaz now on a different circuit.  Everything else in my system, including network components and hard drives are on LPS. 

 

We we really like the Powervar where we use it.  

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1 hour ago, lmitche said:

I just read the thread and postings on single vs. shared transformer outputs and the number of power supplies necessary to separate everything.

 

It's a little embarrassing, but I have nine single transformer sigma 11 based power supplies, most with a second or third stage of lt3045 regulation.

@forehaven and @zorntel have six each.

 

Conspicuous consumption, I say!  ?

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On 5/31/2018 at 2:41 PM, lmitche said:

Hi Frank,

 

Well my Multimeter says otherwise so I'd recommend you get a piece from Lewis and check it out yourself.

 

Also, our mutual friend has a 2 foot piece of this same cable powering an Iso Regen at his place.

 

Larry

 

 

 

@BigGuy   Polyester is an insulator.  I’m surprised by the owner’s response.  He should know that.   And I would be curious why all the shields continually in electrical contact would be a design decision.

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17 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

I've found these two characteristics are consistent when doing any emi and RF shielding. Apparently those things impact imaging and bass primarily. 

 

I've had to make other adjustments for bass as I've never had such great response from my speakers. And talk about holographic. I'm getting this from my turntable now as well. Never expected this from vinyl. 

 

You may remember that the bass response was one of the most common improvements mentioned with the first Uptone REGEN and then the ISO R and other isolators.  Seems noise everywhere impacts bass.  I would expect the imaging to improve but I’ve been surprised by the improvements in bass.  Pleasantly, I must say.  ?

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I

7 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

[A] comparing a shorter cable with a longer one introduces another variable (or 2), and it may be a relatively important one - Sandy has has made the same point several times 

 

- but the problem is that there are 2 possible effects and they are countervailing - longer allows better attenuation of EM noise in the source, but also creates a longer antenna to pick up RF noise

 

and speaking of RF noise... I am not sure that a better electrical conductor (silver) will pick up more RF noise - what is the basis for that?

 

 

I’m looking through my references for metals RFI/EMI susceptibility and found this tech note on electronics. 

 

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00001767a.pdf#utm_source=&utm_medium=MicroSolutions&utm_term=&utm_content=MSLD&utm_campaign=AN1767

 

I will see what else I can find. 

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16 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

I

 

I’m looking through my references for metals RFI/EMI susceptibility and found this tech note on electronics. 

 

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00001767a.pdf#utm_source=&utm_medium=MicroSolutions&utm_term=&utm_content=MSLD&utm_campaign=AN1767

 

I will see what else I can find. 

 

Here is some interesting info (and a lot of equations) on preventing interference in components.

 

https://www.ieee.li/pdf/viewgraphs/emc_design_fundamentals.pdf

 

Silver "should" have a higher susceptibility because it is higher conductivity than copper. (if I recall correctly)

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3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

which of the 13 pages of text were you looking at on the App. Note?

 

also don't forget that even if silver picks up EM noise more than copper, the signal may well experience less attenuation (tho the conducted noise would too)

 

The summary LOL !!!  

 

hard to tell which would win.... less signal attenuation or less conducted noise.

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14 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

are we looking at the same thing?  The link to that App. Note does not mention silver per se (search fn) and there is a Conclusion but no Summary.

 

It is about hardening chips for "harsh EMI" env.s (e.g. military etc.)

 

 

anyway, you'd have to measure the effects under the range of control variables expected to see which predominates

 

Here is a better article on shielding materials, including silver....  It would look like silver may be ~5% more effective - in certain applications.

 

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/200/1/012045/pdf

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1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

Thanks Alex.  I'll probably order the shorty Oayide's you linked from eBay and make it fit.  It looks like they ship from Japan, although the other CA member said he tested those from HK and they appear legit.  Too bad there isn't a connector with the same quality as Oayide.

 

 

About a year ago I found a distributor in Ontario, Canada that had the Oyaide barrel connectors.  I’m flying back home today and will see if I can find the link to their site.  

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19 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

 

About a year ago I found a distributor in Ontario, Canada that had the Oyaide barrel connectors.  I’m flying back home today and will see if I can find the link to their site.  

 

Crap!  The Ontario connection was for Furutech A/C stuff.  but have you found VH Audio?  They still show them on their website at ~US$20.

 

https://www.vhaudio.com/oyaide-dc.html

 

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53 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Interesting article on performance and cooling with Intel's latest products.

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13544/why-intel-processors-draw-more-power-than-expected-tdp-turbo

 

I would guess that setting up one of the heavier HQPlayer filters for DSD512 puts a CPU into PL2, plus!  I use CoreTemp to monitor temp and power.  The 6700K CPU idles at 27-29C and 24W.   Firing up HQP at 44 to 512 with poly-sinc-short-mp took the CPU to 100% and 90C on 2 cores and 50+W overall.  That only lasted a couple seconds until throttling started, I think.  The 6700 is OC at 4.2GHz and it dipped some, settling in at 20% utilization when playing.  The filter build took about 10 seconds. 

 

I just had to replace my water cooler unit, the pump went and the system shut down properly from overtemp.  Whew!

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On 12/2/2018 at 1:06 PM, lmitche said:

Rick,

 

While I may have been the last kid to the party, I first heard about the headless ramboot version of AL from Piero in mid September. The full SQ impact of what we are now hearing wasn't available, at least to me, until then.

 

So I'd argue this is a recent solution.

 

Larry

 

We (some) have been using @Miska ‘s Linux NAA images for a few years.  Pretty sure those are similarly optimized.  Not sure, though, if those images have all necessary components to be used as a server OS directly.

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