A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[jay]

Team...

 

Long time listener, first time caller on this thread.  It's a treasure trove...sincerely, thank you all for the contributions in both time and money you've put into moving this forward and doing such a thorough job documenting it for us.  Given the progression over the last 15 months or so of this thread, I've read the last 3 months worth again page-by-page and hit the majority of the indexed topics as well from the beginning to try to align on current findings and thinkings.  I recognize there is still plenty of healthy, divided thinking on "best SQ" and this will continue to evolve quickly.

 

As a result of that reading, I have a few questions I'd love this group's opinions on as a current use-case...I know they are subjective answers but that's what I'm looking for...based on where folks sit today.

 

Quick background:  I'm very happy with my digital front end and I've entered my second decade of computer-based audio, so most of the concepts are familiar to me, as a baseline.  I've gone from modded macs (G5 towers and several Minis) with Audivana/Amarra through the Aurender path and then to Roon/micro-Rendu-now-Ultra-Rendu/usb-Regen-now-Iso-Regen.  All have been fun and awesome, and my journey continues as new findings and new products hit.  I skipped the Windows and Linux servers and C.A.P.S. (so far) mostly because my tech skills lack there, and I was ok leaving some SQ on the table sticking with the Macs.  I also felt like the Aurender then Roon/Micro-Rendu era let me ignore the true multi-use computer server side a little (not really sure that was true retrospectively given my current Roon needs)...so I fear it's time for me to rethink that.   However, I'm not willing to give up Roon/Tidal and my existing file-based library at this point, so going back to higher-end Aurender and the like is a non-starter for me right now.  I should add I have dedicated lines/balanced power, etc., so I know that that baseline is required to get the most out of the upgrades.  I also have fairly high-end tube pre-, 300b mono amps, and high-efficiency speakers, so I'm set on those fronts.

 

My current digital set-up is as follows, and I know it certainly has some limitations on what is possible:

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server/NAS/usb-external drive for music > series of netgear switches/generic Cat 6 travelling the length of the house > UltraRendu (Sonore LPS) > Sublon USB > IsoRegen (LPS-1) > USPCB > Schiit Yggy

On order, but yet in, the system will become, with some of those limitations obviously still in place:

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server/NAS/usb-external drive for music > series of netgear switches/generic Cat 6 Audioquest Cat7 dedicated 25' run (from another room)  > Sotm modded switch/clock (LPS 1.2) > Sotm dCBL-CAT7 > UltraRendu sMS-200ultra (external clock-capable) (Sonore LPS) > Sublon USB > IsoRegen (LPS-1) > USPCB > Schiit Yggy

 

I expect big SQ improvements once these additions/subtractions are in the system, but here is my question specifically on moving it forward from there:

 

After this, what is (are) the most value-added, logical next step(s)?

1. Complete the tri-fecta and order a tX-USBultra, play with IR in front and behind, etc.
2. Add an external reference clock
3. 1+2
4. Go purpose-built SE or SGM-like server, consider HQPlayer in the software mix if hardware is capable and benefits are there (may not help with Yggy)
5. DAC upgrade (with or without 4)
6. if 5, consider Blu2/Dave or other m-scaler/DAC solutions instead of 4+5

 

There are probably others I'm missing.

 

From the experienced here that have gone before me, what would you heavily consider next?

 

thanks, Jay

[jay]

@d_elm, So this is a dumb question, but where are you running the Roon core?  Can it be run from the SMS200 or do you have a server somewhere too?

 

It seems that you went the #3 route from my list, and also made some additional grounding/cabling/shielding, and have some 12V options in there?

[jay]

Folks, as always, I appreciate the thinking.  Keep it coming if anyone has other thoughts.

 

I'm probably going to hit the TX-USBultra next as a logical next move, and make sure it can take the external ref clock when I'm ready there.  Is the DX no longer available?  I've never run AES into the Yggy given my pre-Yggy USB investments, so I'm interested to read that people prefer that input.  I did upgrade the USB to USB5, but haven't done the analog 2 upgrade yet (and probably won't).

 

I have 4 2-channel systems, so my systems 2-4 get the trickle down from my previous "bests" on system 1, so I'm sure the trifecta will have a great home for a very very long time, regardless if I go a different route on the main rig.

 

For those running Roon with the trifecta, where are you running the core?  That is still confusing to me from reading people's profiles.  Do I still need my Mac or a better server to run Core?  Sorry for that dumb question.

[jay]

BTW, I did a 2 week demo of the Aqua Formula DAC @$14k usd and really, really wanted to love it from all that I read about it.  It was more detailed than the Yggy (which I feel is already super detailed) and all other things equal, it had a bigger soundstage to boot, which I love.  But in spite of having a bigger soundstage and better detail, I found myself "looking" at the distinct parts of the image, and seeing individual sounds rather than hearing the whole musical cohesive experience.  I won't call it analytical, but it was definitely at times distracting, and that pulled a lot of the emotion out of the experience.  Another dealer said "you really need to hear it with the SGM to get the most out of it."   The dealer that loaned it to me said "it's not what I would do with the money honestly...there are more musical options for you."  So that was basically saying to me either "plan on spending $30K on the upsampling server, HQPlayer, and DAC to experience the best of the Formula" or "keep demoing different DACs in that price range."

 

To add to the experience, I had ordered the Sublon USB, but had sent the Formula back 2 days before the Sublon arrived.  The Sublon, while kind of expensive, ironically was a massive improvement in soundstage and even a little detail with the Yggy, and didn't lose a step in cohesion and emotion...everything better.  So ironically that combo was better than the Formula alone at 1/15th the cost.  @austinpop the Yggy remains out of balance cost-wise in my system as well.

 

All of that is what caused me to find this thread again and start looking upstream.

[jay]

2 hours ago, HeeBroG said:

 

Interesting idea...just checked out their website and that's certainly a super reasonable price.  I'm away from my home until later today,  but I think that's for the previous model Mac Mini, not the current one that I have.  I will try to confirm later today.  Btw, we did a head-to-head LPS-driven 2010 Mac Mini, stock 2010-era Mac Mini, and the most recent stock model a few years ago--the current model stock and the LPS-driven previous model were really close--both significantly better than the stock 2010 which I also owned at the time.  I think that one is bricked now, but maybe I'll try see if I still have it around and upgrade it with this kit to do a compare--it's cheap enough.  I will also look at running the OS off of a card.

 

In the meantime I went ahead and ordered a tX-USBultra this morning to complete the rest of the trifecta I already had on order.

[jay]

Sorry, looks like I'm wrong--this MMK appears to be for the current model.  Cool--will give it a try!  Ordered!

[jay]

Sorry to jump back probably 9 months or longer in terms of topic newness for this thread, but I've got what I hope is a quick question regarding running the Mac Mini off of the SD card.  I've successfully (?) done that this morning, but my question is where I should be running Roon from, as this is also my Roon Core server.  I assume the "applications" folder is by default with the OS, so it appears it's on the SD card with the OS where I booted from, and consequently I'm assuming when Roon installs in that folder, then Roon runs from the SD card too in that state?  Is this where I want to run it, or do I want it running from the internal hard drive?  I assume the latter?  I am not an OSX expert by any means...I made a folder on the main hard drive and tried both to move it there, which didn't work, and then to install it there, which also didn't work (app wouldn't load in either case).  Can anyone smarter than I give me some quick answers?  Thank you!

[jay]

@mozes +1 on the sub recommendation.  I added a Zu Undertone to my Soul Supremes last month, and had the same experience.  Ironically, I had 2 Paradigm $1700 subs that are supposed to be musical in the mix (1, then 2, then back to 1), and I never got them dialed in, so I eventually just took them out.  I bought the Zu on the reviews, and it was so easy to integrate with the Zu speakers.  So the matching and tweaking, to your point, is totally necessary.

 

And apparently not having them catch fire.  Yowser.

[jay]

In case useful to the thread at this point (additional relative data points I think), here is what I've done this week, and the results...focused thus far in following the recommendations on improving the Mac Mini as a Roon server.

 

In prep for my incoming SOTM Trifecta, MMK linear power for the Mac Mini, etc., I did the following:

 

1.  Loaded OSX High Sierra to a 128G high-speed SD card rather than running it from the internal hard drive, and then tried to optimize the Mini as much as possible by turning most everything off, as recommended here, and in the myriad of sites on what to do.  I run it headless so it doesn't drive a display unless I remote into it.  I was still a little surprised at the difference doing all this made (even though this thread suggested it would)...mostly because of how bad my network is between it and the network player (I thought the bad, complicated network would mask any improvements).  I would say it definitely lowered the noise floor, but in doing so, it also gave the appearance of a little less weight/meat on the bone, so to speak?  I think I lost a little bass energy.  I would still say it improved overall--definitely could hear parts in well-known songs that had some nuanced layers I hadn't noticed before.  I think a couple folks here correctly termed is as "relaxed" and in my case it pulled out a little more detail as well.  Cool.  I did NOT overwrite the hard drive, so at some point I can boot as normal and test again without the SD mods...I don't think that's hurting anything on the SD-boot side, since none of it is running.  The server is still running with wifi on, over wifi in a remote room, then through 3 (count them, 3) additional Netgear switches and probably 100 feet of 10-year-old CAT5 to get to the UR.  Hardly an ideal network path to the UltraRendu/ISO Regen/Schiit Yggy.  That's obviously optimization to come.

 

NOTE:  The results appeared to be more pronounced late night and early morning, where I might assume either the power coming to the house is cleaner, the power circulating in my house is cleaner, and/or the house was quieter and therefore I could hear better.  Probably some combo or all of the above.  I do have dedicated lines and balanced Equi=Core power, but I'm not convinced that time of day doesn't still matter.

 

2.  Added an Apple Airport Extreme in the LAN path between the old CAT5 that was going to the UltraRendu.  Wireless is off, so I'm only using it as now a 4th switch.  It is NOT plugged into the balanced power as it's on a wall-wart.  Shockingly, I couldn't hear a difference...I expected it to be more noisy and congested (worse), but it actually sounded just as clean, maybe even the slightest bit more relaxed?  Perhaps the clock in it is not as bad as the clocks in the netgear switches before it?  Let's conservatively say "no additional harm."  This was to prep for the next 4 tests, which I will try to get done tonight:

 

3.  Move the Mac Mini to the listening room, hanging it off of the Airport Extreme switch.  This will put only this switch between the server and the Ultra Rendu, rather than a wireless switch and 3 hardwired switches.  Tidal will still be flowing through the 3 netgear switches, so 3a will be local files, and 3b will be remote Tidal.

4.  Putting the switch on the balanced Equi=Core/dedicated line vs. plugging it into the standard house lines.  I can repeat 3a and 3b as 4a and 4b if the result of 4 is interesting.

5.  Turning off Wifi on the Mac Mini.

6.  Using a firewire/Ethernet adapter to bridge the UR to the Mac Mini, thus eliminating the Airport Extreme switch between them.  5a will be local files, and 5b will be remote Tidal.

 

Jay

[jay]

Some findings from last night.

 

a) As noted in my previous post, even though I have dedicated lines (3) and Equi=Core balanced power (1800), I still hear worse sound during the day than I do at night and early morning.  I'm sure I do not have optimized power in this house, even with what I've done.  This affected my second round of testing, and I had to re-do the tests last night for apples to apples.  This was true in previous testing I'd done a year ago with the Audience power conditioner I've been using for the last few years.  Equi=Core was better, but didn't totally isolate bad power in the house.

b) plugging my Audion Golden Dream 300B monos into a dedicated line was NOT as smooth and balanced as running them through the Equi=Core balanced power, on a dedicated line.  I had not tried this, and I know many report hearing improved dynamics and clarity with amps going direct to the dedicated lines.  That's one everyone should play with (if you've made the investment in dedicated lines), as I'm sure it's very system- (and amp-) dependent.

c)  Out of necessity (it wouldn't power up after unplugging it), I took the IsoRegen out of the mix to first test the introduction of the Apple Airport switch into the mix (#2 in my previous post).  It was a LOT of SQ degradation vs. having it in (I couldn't get it to power up once I re-plugged it in, so for a couple songs I thought I had killed it, but it revived itself thankfully and I put it back in).  I hadn't pulled that out of the system since putting it in to replace the USBRegen--so it's been years without having one of those in my chain.  At least with an UltraRendu/MicroRendu, the IR is a must in my experience if you're going USB into your DAC...in my system with 3 different DACs I've tried, anyway.

 

With the rest of the house asleep, I redid the tests...interesting results?  Maybe, maybe not.

 

3.  Placing the Mac Mini near my Equi=Core and power cord loom didn't seem to be good...it was still on wireless, but it sounded less clean on the top-end.  I'll assume it was either picking up RFI being that close, or it was introducing it's own noise back in the Equi=Core.  Maybe some combo or something else entirely.  I tried to connect it via ethernet, turn off wireless (I jumped to 5), and it sounded identically bad.  So I moved it over to the other end of the rack away from all the power cords (but next to the Apple Airport switch)--perhaps a little less "bad," but still not as good as when it was running in a remote room.  Then I unplugged it altogether from the Equi=Core and put it into it's own dedicated line, off of balanced power.  Some improvement.  In the end, I believe that it was roughly the same as having the server in a completely other room, going through all those switches, even for local files.  I could not discern any notable differences between local files (3a) and Tidal files (3b), btw.

4.  Putting the Apple Airport switch on balanced power...hard to tell if this made any difference, so I pulled it back off of the balanced power conditioner, especially since this switch was unnecessary once I get to #6.

5.  Again, switching network connections between ethernet and wireless (and then turning off the service), I didn't hear a lot of improvements--there was one flip from wireless to ethernet where I heard an audibly discernible "calming" but I wasn't really able to recreate it, so I'm going to conservatively call this a draw in my current environment too.  It's definitely not worse through a crummy Apple Airport switch (wifi off on the switch) and crummy CAT5.

6.  Bridging the MacMini and the Ultra Rendu using the Thunderbolt connector.  Perhaps just a little improvement.  Pulling the Apple Airport switch out of the mix again, maybe a little more improvement.  No discernible differences in local files (6a) vs. Tidal remote files (6b).

 

Net-Net Punchline:  The SD card OS and the Thunderbolt/ethernet bridging, on their own, have not made "OMG" improvements in my system, but I would argue for the $100 investment plus a couple hours of time, those sticking with Mac Mini as a Roon server should do them.  I got a little cleaner if not a little tiny bit leaner sound (after some settling in, I'm not longer convinced of this slight loss of "weight"), but definitely a little more detail, and I wouldn't say any less musical (I won't sacrifice musicality and PRAT for detail, ever).  This seems to be at least in the direction of most of the previous findings.  I don't think you will go backwards doing these two changes.  These may pay off bigger dividends with some of my incoming SOTM, Uptone and Sonore purchases that have not yet arrived.

 

Of related note, for me, IsoRegen still has a massive effect when going USB.  Sablon USB on top of that was also a giant USB improvement in terms of SQ.  Those two investments, while sizable, have had the most demonstrated improvements in this current chain of late.  I'm feeding a Schiit Yggy with the USB5 upgrade--different DACs may have different results.

 

Next up:  My Uptone MMK power supply upgrade for the Mini, plus a JS-2 linear power supply should arrive later today.  I'll see how quickly I can get the MMK installed, but before I do that, I will move the JS-2 around the system (recognizing it won't be at all burned in) and see if I can hear any differences.

[jay]

My Mac Mini Uptone MMK upgrade worked out, in spite of the instructions being really rough and trying to follow 3 different sets of "tear down" videos in lieu of better instructions, and the sound after a couple of days is improved by a fair amount vs. pre-upgrade, and a bit over the immediate post-upgrade sound.  In my case this is coupled with an Uptone JS-2 LPS, and since that's the only only 12v LPS I own, I can't yet compare the individual impact of the JS-2 vs. the MMK powered by some other LPS.  When I get my LPS 1.2, I will maybe do a side-by-side and see if the JS-2 is better, and by how much. 

 

I would say the biggest improvement is to the size of the soundstage, which got wider but probably more notably taller (which has actually been something I've been seeking in my system/room).  There is more air now too, after another day or so.  The improvements really took a day of burn in to come out, and in reality I'm only 36 hours in so perhaps it will improve further.  These upgrades made a bigger improvement than the SD card OS upgrade, alone anyway.  If you already own a spare 12v LPS, then the MMK is a really cheap Mac Mini upgrade if you're handy enough not to brick your Mac Mini in the tear down and put-back-together steps.  Since I spent another $1k on the additional LPS (even though it will power my SOTM switch when that arrives too), then the cost now puts the Mini + PS into close to $2k, and more with a good mains cable for the JS-2.  Now you're into or above where you could probably build or even buy a pretty decent Windows or Linux low-powered server, right?  That would be an interesting side-by-side, which someone probably already did in the 300 previous pages and I don't remember now.

 

In the upgrade I think I broke the IR connection, and related/not-related the little light that shows whether the Mac is on or not is also not working.  That's slightly inconvenient on a headless Mac, but my connected drive has a light which tells me whether it's receiving power or not as a substitute.  I'll assume it's for the better since I had already turned off the IR anyway, and that little light was probably introducing all kinds of noise into the computer!  It's a feature!

[jay]

1 hour ago, Frojo said:

 

The LPS 1.2 will not provide enough current to power the MMK, unless i am mistaken (1.1A vs 5A )

 

You're spot on...thank you.

[jay]

I spent the weekend "upgrading" with a coincidental Saturday afternoon Fedex delivery from both SOTM and Schiit.

 

I was impressed that the sMS-200ultra Special Edition was almost a straight unplug/replug for the UltraRendu, and similarly the tX-USBultra regenerator was nearly a straight unplug/replug from the IsoRegen, aside from my needing to find my second Uptone JS-2 cable to feed a second 12v signal to the Tx-USB (alongside the Mac Mini's 12v needs).  I left the IsoRegen and LPS-1 out for now.  I also did not drop the SOTM-modified switch in yet (more on that in a second post, but partly because I only have the wall wart while I wait for the Uptone LPS 1.2 to arrive).

 

The Mac/MMK/Roon/HQPlayer server found the sMS-200ultra bridged immediately, and the first-gen Yggy also fired right up being fed from the tX-USB.  Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.  I had to use the SOTM-supplied usb, and chose to put it between the two SOTM products (rather than try to face them back-to-back to use my Uptone USPCB A>B Adapter that I've become fond of).  I put the Sablon USB as the last one between the tx- and the Yggy, per some recommendations I think I'd read earlier in this thread.

 

I listened for about 3 hours this way.  Everything was a little bigger, a little more detailed, but I did notice some little pacing issues that I often hear in the first 12-24 hours of a factory-fresh source component.  A few songs I know quite well just sounded a bit slow and off, even though their tone, clarity and soundstage were magnificent.

 

I had an event last night, so before I left, I quickly dropped in the new SOTM Cat7 between the Mac Mini and sMS-200ultra to let it run in overnight.  I didn't listen to it at all as I was in a hurry, so I don't know how it sounded cold or what it added/subtracted at this point.

 

This morning the pacing issues were gone, and by this afternoon's 24 hour mark I can say I was quite pleased with the purchases--as they sit, they are an obvious upgrade over the UltraRendu/IsoRegen combo I've had for the last year or so since they both came out.  I haven't pulled out the SOTM Cat7 to see how much improvement that brought by itself...going to let it get some more days on it like this I think.

 

The new Yggy DAC with the Analog 2 stage went in late afternoon, just to hear it cold and get it plugged in to start the burn-in.  I expected to go backwards SQ-wise (my current Yggy has the USB5 upgrade, but not the Analog 2), but darn it if it didn't sound great right from the start, even cold.  I'm interested to see if it goes backwards over the next couple of days...I remember some rough spots in the first week of my other Yggy.  I was a little surprised to not hear any pacing issues that I expected in hour 1...I don't know if they received any burn-in at the factory?

 

I need some advice on the new switch...will post that question next.

 

But before I do that, thanks to all the contributors on this thread--I made all those purchases from feedback you all have given on your own experiences.

 

Jay

[jay]

I bought a SOTM modified switch, and hope to put it in the system shortly for some experimentations.  I don't have a linear power supply for it yet (Uptone LPS-1.2 ordered a few weeks ago), so I only have the wall-wart to start.

 

Rather than try to explain my current chain in words, I tried to draw it out to include here in hopes of that helping.  For the next 8 weeks I'll be in this house, and at that point I'm moving to what I hope will be an improved network situation (we are remodeling a house that we hope to move into by June, where I'll have a bigger dedicated listening room and improved whole-house networking, with some dedicated Cat7 and 20amp power runs for the server/listening room).

 

My current hardwired network goes through 3 switches to get to the upstairs listening room.  There is probably a lot of noise generated in that path, which I believe really only impacts my Tidal usage (which is significant) since I store the owned-files on a USB-drive hanging off of the MacMini server (this might be able to be improved, I realize).

 

Kinneytuck Audio Chain v1.pdf

 

My questions are as follows, and I'd love feedback based on your own experience:

 

1. Should I replace the last switch in the basement with the SOTM switch, without benefiting from the clock connection to the sMS-200Ultra?  That seems only marginally beneficial, if any, and only once I have a linear power supply?
2. Should I add the SOTM switch as a 4th switch in the chain, in the listening room, obviously connecting it to the clock in the sMS-200Ultra, and hang the bridged MacMini/sMS-200Ultra off of that?
3. Should I do #2 above, but no longer bridge the MacMini/sMS-200Ultra, and instead also hang the sMS-200Ultra off of the SOTM switch too?
4. In either #2 or #3 above, am I going to get benefit from getting a second SOTM Cat7?

All thoughts appreciated before I start tearing apart the house network, or ordering expensive Cat7s.

 

thanks, Jay

[jay]

On 4/23/2018 at 10:22 AM, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Just curious...have you tried the Gutwire on your DAC?

 

 

I spent a couple days with the Gutwire on my DAC, and I feel like it improved things.  I spent another couple of days with it on the pre-amp...I can't say for sure which I prefer, yet.  I do remember reading it needed a really long burn-in, too?  Once I get things a little more burned in on all the new equipment (including the Gutwire), I'll move it back and forth and report back my preference in my system.

[jay]

Thanks to all the suggestions of where to put the SOTM-modded switch--it hadn't occurred to me to put it between the Mac Mini and the sMS-200ultra.

 

I was all set to try both this evening, but..in my haste to get the SOTM gear in on Saturday, I'm not 100% sure what happened to the wall-wart that came with the modded switch from SOTM.  The modded Netgear switch says 12v/0.5a needed.  I can only find one 12v in the listening room, and it's a 1.5a.  My 8-port Netgear switches have Netgear branded wall-warts at 12v/1.0a.  I plugged in the one I found, and the power light on the switch just flashes, and no signal is running to/between the ports.  Is 1.5a not ok for it?

 

Can anyone with a 5-port Netgear switch, specifically one modded by SOTM, confirm what branded wall-wart shipped with it?

 

I may need to wait until the LPS-1.2 shows up and hope it works with the switch on 12v?

 

Is it possible my switch from SOTM is bad?

 

thoughts?

[jay]

23 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Have you connected the switch to the sMS-200ultra and powered both on?  If not, that is likely the problem.  The switch won't work without a clock signal from the sMS-200ultra.

 

I think so?  I put the connector wire on both and pressed them in to the level where they felt like they couldn't go any further (there's not a distinct "click").  I power cycled both units as well, but I can't get a signal from the Mac, even after power-cycling that a few times.

 

The power light on the switch is still slowly flashing.  It's solid on my 8-port units in the basement.  The port lights also don't flash, and I can't get to the Mac Mini nor the sMS-200Ultra remotely.

 

Undoing it all and throwing the cat5 back into the Mac, and all reconnects automatically.

 

I think something is wrong with the switch?