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Roon 1.3 and Upsampling


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has roon in 1.3 or earlier allow you to browse directory structure to play song selection yet?

or any plans to? Until they do, it's a non-starter program for me.

Does anyone know if there'll be a plugin or something for this?

Vinnie Rossi LIO (AVC/Tubestage, AMP Module with built in HPF 100Hz 24dB/octave, DAC 2.0), Harbeth P3ESR, Rythmik F8

Win10 i7-7700 -> Roon -> HQPlayer DSD512- > LIO 100Hz HPF -> Harbeth P3ESR

                                                                                ->LIO  -> miniDSP <100Hz -> Rythmik F8  

 

 

 

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baddog nice suggestion but is anyone really happy with their support/community pages I find them self defeating confusing at times not at all intuitive more frustrating ALL the other things that they do so well information on printed page is not one of them

 

I couldn't agree more I laugh as their SW is incredible but yet I find the forum terrible in terms of layout and being intuitive.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

W10 NUC i7 (Gen 10) > Roon (Audiolense FIR) > Motu UltraLite mk5 > (4) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs

 

Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos

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I couldn't agree more I laugh as their SW is incredible but yet I find the forum terrible in terms of layout and being intuitive.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

I have to agree. It is often difficult to find appropriate threads and posts to pose questions and receive answers. There are also often multiple threads that touch on the same subject. Hey, wait a minute! That sounds a lot like CA! I guess I will go rethink.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

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Mac Mini connected via USB to KEF LS50 Wireless running Roon to integrate iTunes Library (16/44 CD rips, 24/96 needledrops) and Tidal HiFi (Masters). Wondering where to upsample:

 

Audio MIDI

Roon

 

The KEFs automatically upsample everything to 24/192.

 

Bill

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Mac Mini->Roon + Tidal->KEF LS50W

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Mac Mini connected via USB to KEF LS50 Wireless running Roon to integrate iTunes Library (16/44 CD rips, 24/96 needledrops) and Tidal HiFi (Masters). Wondering where to upsample:

 

Audio MIDI

Roon

 

The KEFs automatically upsample everything to 24/192.

 

Bill

 

I'd wait a bit to see how Roon integration is going to be accomplished in the KEF's. It appears that KEF will ultimately be a Roon endpoint soon and if they let Roon do it's thing (with MQA also) it could be that they somehow bypass the upsampling in LS50W. It would be nice if they didn't upsample and let files play as their native format. For now I would let everything stream (or play) in it's native resolution to the KEF's and let upsampling occur there.

David

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baddog nice suggestion but is anyone really happy with their support/community pages I find them self defeating confusing at times not at all intuitive more frustrating ALL the other things that they do so well information on printed page is not one of them

I find Roon support one of the best there is.

I also did not understand everything in the beginning.

 

As an example I requested them during a weekend to extend my friend 14 day trail. Done after 2 hours. (And yes he bought lifetime :) )

 

If you add the sign "@" in front of support or any name, you address people directly.

 

I can add add I have even got live support from them by video and use of TeamViewer.

 

Also I think their team lives in several time zones, making support even better.

 

And I find their support pages very easy to use. I must admit I struggle more with CA and equal sites on same format.

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To put it simplified 50% of the performance comes from the upsampling filter design and another 50% comes from the modulator design.

 

H Miska

 

This apply if you only do pcm up sampling as well ?

 

Also these parameters you refer to, you can't choose or change even in HQPlayer?

At least that how I understand the menu selections. You chose upsamling parameters. Then you play with filters. Am I wrong ?

 

Next thing that I think affects this even more is the hardware.

 

As as a general rule we have been told to separate Roon and HQPlayer. Right ?

Now that Roon offers upsamling, should that not benefit the use of only one device ?

 

Or put it in an other way, if people compare upsamling in Roon vs upsamling using HQPLAYER on another computer, do they then really compare the software implementations?

 

Can you comment on that.

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This apply if you only do pcm up sampling as well ?

 

Yes, if you upsample and output PCM and then DAC performs delta-sigma modulation, then the other half of the result depends still on the DAC's modulator design. Plus of course there's always the impact of DAC's analog filter design.

 

Also these parameters you refer to, you can't choose or change even in HQPlayer?

At least that how I understand the menu selections. You chose upsamling parameters. Then you play with filters. Am I wrong ?

 

Yes, all the parameters (including the mathematical formulas) are predefined by me, as "the design". That's where I've spent huge amount of design time.

 

Or put it in an other way, if people compare upsamling in Roon vs upsamling using HQPLAYER on another computer, do they then really compare the software implementations?

 

For better comparison you can run both Roon and HQPlayer in the same computer. That rules out the computer effect part.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Miska:

 

I'm not sure I get this. Are you saying filters are involved when a PCM redbok is upsampled to 24/176 or 24/192 ?

And maybe we can keep this simple and only talk about PCM redbok to 24/176 or 24/192.

Though I suppose DSD conversion may not change what I'm trying to understand

 

We can leave the DAC out, except I understand you have to do the settings accordingly to your DAC. I'm interested in understanding how up-sampling in sw can differ from each other.

 

So the up-samling algorithm is not a "fixed standard", but can be implemented in different ways. Like you can make Nyquist theory in different versions if you like.

 

My understanding of a filter is something that is applied after (or maybe during) the upsamling is done. Probably what's called modulator design.

In any case it can be seen as a separate process in up-sampling or ?

 

I taught up-samling was a pure more or less fixed mathematical processes, but I'm wrong ?

I'm trying to understand your user manual, and it seems to me when "none" is selected no filters apply, but up-sampling is still performed. Or maybe not ?

 

On the other side, this also could mean every ADC may also be different, as there are filters involved or ?

Ops, sounds like I'm getting close to MQA, that is not the intention :)

 

Am I totally wrong in how I understand up-sampling done in SW?

I'm reading your latest user manual. As well looking into setting on my HQPlayer.

There you can choose none in filter. And manual states

"No sample rate conversion happens. Only sample depth is changed as needed"

 

I suppose this mean 44.1 or 48 is kept, and 16 bit can change to 24 or 32. Correct ?

 

Further the manual states:

"When DAC with other bit depth than 24-bit is connected to a unidirectional interface like S/PDIF or AES/EBU it is recommended to select correct number of bits from the “DAC bits” selection."

 

Then if I set DAC bits to 24, I suppose that is what I get. No filters involved. Right ? And most likely no difference between HQPlayer and Roon ?

I can choose Dither to none. From manual:

"No noise-shaping or dithering, only rounding. Mostly suitable for 32-bit output hardware where quantization error is buried in thermal noise. Not recommended."

 

So if I shall compare Roon and HQPlayer I have to set this to none. Right ?

Or should I use TPDF, and maybe verify with Roon what they have used ?

 

TPDF is referred to as "Industry standard" in your manual.

 

And I probably should set the sample rate limit to max what my DAC accepts. Which in my case is 192.

 

So will I now have up-sampling, or do I have to choose something in the PCM up-sampling filter selection in order for up-sampling to happen ? So in order to compare to Roon, I will have to find out what filter they have used ?

 

EDIT:

I now see that I have to choose between Minimum Phase vs Linear Phase in Roon. I guess that is their filter settings then?

 

So maybe I should ask what is similar to those two filters in Roon vs yours ?

 

From Roon:

Roon's sample rate converters use fully synchronous, polyphase interpolation. Most are "apodising", and they roll off slowly to minimize ringing. Both minimum phase and linear phase options are available.

https://kb.roonlabs.com/DSP_Engine:_Sample_Rate_Conversion

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Miska:

 

I'm not sure I get this. Are you saying filters are involved when a PCM redbok is upsampled to 24/176 or 24/192 ?

And maybe we can keep this simple and only talk about PCM redbok to 24/176 or 24/192.

Though I suppose DSD conversion may not change what I'm trying to understand

 

We can leave the DAC out, except I understand you have to do the settings accordingly to your DAC. I'm interested in understanding how up-sampling in sw can differ from each other.

 

So the up-samling algorithm is not a "fixed standard", but can be implemented in different ways. Like you can make Nyquist theory in different versions if you like.

 

My understanding of a filter is something that is applied after (or maybe during) the upsamling is done. Probably what's called modulator design.

In any case it can be seen as a separate process in up-sampling or ?

 

I taught up-samling was a pure more or less fixed mathematical processes, but I'm wrong ?

I'm trying to understand your user manual, and it seems to me when "none" is selected no filters apply, but up-sampling is still performed. Or maybe not ?

 

On the other side, this also could mean every ADC may also be different, as there are filters involved or ?

Ops, sounds like I'm getting close to MQA, that is not the intention :)

 

Am I totally wrong in how I understand up-sampling done in SW?

I'm reading your latest user manual. As well looking into setting on my HQPlayer.

There you can choose none in filter. And manual states

"No sample rate conversion happens. Only sample depth is changed as needed"

 

I suppose this mean 44.1 or 48 is kept, and 16 bit can change to 24 or 32. Correct ?

 

Further the manual states:

"When DAC with other bit depth than 24-bit is connected to a unidirectional interface like S/PDIF or AES/EBU it is recommended to select correct number of bits from the “DAC bits” selection."

 

Then if I set DAC bits to 24, I suppose that is what I get. No filters involved. Right ? And most likely no difference between HQPlayer and Roon ?

I can choose Dither to none. From manual:

"No noise-shaping or dithering, only rounding. Mostly suitable for 32-bit output hardware where quantization error is buried in thermal noise. Not recommended."

 

So if I shall compare Roon and HQPlayer I have to set this to none. Right ?

Or should I use TPDF, and maybe verify with Roon what they have used ?

 

TPDF is referred to as "Industry standard" in your manual.

 

And I probably should set the sample rate limit to max what my DAC accepts. Which in my case is 192.

 

So will I now have up-sampling, or do I have to choose something in the PCM up-sampling filter selection in order for up-sampling to happen ? So in order to compare to Roon, I will have to find out what filter they have used ?

 

EDIT:

I now see that I have to choose between Minimum Phase vs Linear Phase in Roon. I guess that is their filter settings then?

 

So maybe I should ask what is similar to those two filters in Roon vs yours ?

 

From Roon:

Roon's sample rate converters use fully synchronous, polyphase interpolation. Most are "apodising", and they roll off slowly to minimize ringing. Both minimum phase and linear phase options are available.

https://kb.roonlabs.com/DSP_Engine:_Sample_Rate_Conversion

 

I'm sure Miska will come back with a much better, more comprehensive answer, but you're thinking of upsampling as a simple multiplication of the existing content (e.g., x * 4 = 4x or 44.1 * 4 = 176.4). This would gain you exactly nothing, as you would simply be preserving the existing content in a much bigger bucket.

 

Beyond simple multiplication there is a veritable universe of possibilities using different settings, algorithms, different modulators, etc. - so the results of upsampling in Roon vs. Audacity vs. HQPlayer, etc., are completely different from one another, and sound completely different, as well.

 

From my own listening (primarily via headphones, as my headphone setup is much more revealing than my main system), upsampling to DSD256, HQPlayer > Audirvana > Roon - dependent, of course, on selecting the "right" settings in each.

John Walker - IT Executive

Headphone - SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable Ethernet > mRendu Roon endpoint > Topping D90 > Topping A90d > Dan Clark Expanse / HiFiMan H6SE v2 / HiFiman Arya Stealth

Home Theater / Music -SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable HDMI > Denon X3700h > Anthem Amp for front channels > Revel F208-based 5.2.4 Atmos speaker system

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I'm not sure I get this. Are you saying filters are involved when a PCM redbok is upsampled to 24/176 or 24/192 ?

 

Yes, of course they are.

 

My understanding of a filter is something that is applied after (or maybe during) the upsamling is done. Probably what's called modulator design.

In any case it can be seen as a separate process in up-sampling or ?

 

No, filter is important part of upsampling. Modulator is a different thing that is used to convert PCM to SDM (DSD).

 

I taught up-samling was a pure more or less fixed mathematical processes, but I'm wrong ?

 

There is no one single thing called "upsampling", there are almost infinite number of different ways to do it.

 

I'm trying to understand your user manual, and it seems to me when "none" is selected no filters apply, but up-sampling is still performed. Or maybe not ?

 

No, if you select "none", then no rate conversion is performed.

 

On the other side, this also could mean every ADC may also be different, as there are filters involved or ?

 

Yes, every ADC is different. Or mastering stage, since lot of recordings are made at least in 96/24 these days and then converted to RedBook at last mastering stage for distribution.

 

Ops, sounds like I'm getting close to MQA, that is not the intention :)

 

MQA doesn't have anything to do with this, unless you want MQA company to enforce their leaky upsampling filter on you without choice.

 

There you can choose none in filter. And manual states

"No sample rate conversion happens. Only sample depth is changed as needed"

 

I suppose this mean 44.1 or 48 is kept, and 16 bit can change to 24 or 32. Correct ?

 

Yes...

 

"When DAC with other bit depth than 24-bit is connected to a unidirectional interface like S/PDIF or AES/EBU it is recommended to select correct number of bits from the “DAC bits” selection."

 

Then if I set DAC bits to 24, I suppose that is what I get. No filters involved. Right ? And most likely no difference between HQPlayer and Roon ?

 

You don't get filters, but you get the selected dither/noise shaping still, which will be likely more or less different from Roon. But if you select "none" as filter, you are not really using what HQPlayer is designed for.

 

I can choose Dither to none. From manual:

"No noise-shaping or dithering, only rounding. Mostly suitable for 32-bit output hardware where quantization error is buried in thermal noise. Not recommended."

 

So if I shall compare Roon and HQPlayer I have to set this to none. Right ?

Or should I use TPDF, and maybe verify with Roon what they have used ?

 

Depends on what you really want to compare. A no upsampling to no upsampling or what?

 

So will I now have up-sampling, or do I have to choose something in the PCM up-sampling filter selection in order for up-sampling to happen ? So in order to compare to Roon, I will have to find out what filter they have used ?

 

If you select none/none in HQPlayer you have essentially disabled all upsampling.

 

If you want to compare HQPlayer upsampling against Roon upsampling, select some filter/dither/shaper/modulator whatever at both sides and compare. As long as both output the same format, like 192/24 or something else.

 

I now see that I have to choose between Minimum Phase vs Linear Phase in Roon. I guess that is their filter settings then?

 

Yes...

 

So maybe I should ask what is similar to those two filters in Roon vs yours ?

 

I don't know which would be considered "similar". I offer number of linear- and minimum-phase filters. But it would of course make sense to compare minimum-phase against minimum-phase and linear-phase against linear-phase.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Thanks Miska

 

I think I may understand a bit more.

 

I have before asked if there is a way of a more closer integration between HQPlayer and Roon.

I'm thinking like having HQPlayer totally hidden, and just be controlled from Roon.

 

If Roon wanted to, is it technically possible for them to just add a similar control interface as yours to Roon, and access your filters etc ?

 

They are now making their own small Linux distro ROCK.

 

As an example:

With HQPlayer embedded, they could access your algorithm and filters if they like to offer such an approach ?

 

Of cause people still would need to have a valid license obtained from you.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

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Thanks Miska

 

I think I may understand a bit more.

 

I have before asked if there is a way of a more closer integration between HQPlayer and Roon.

I'm thinking like having HQPlayer totally hidden, and just be controlled from Roon.

 

If Roon wanted to, is it technically possible for them to just add a similar control interface as yours to Roon, and access your filters etc ?

 

They are now making their own small Linux distro ROCK.

 

As an example:

With HQPlayer embedded, they could access your algorithm and filters if they like to offer such an approach ?

 

Of cause people still would need to have a valid license obtained from you.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

As a *consumer* of both Roon and HQPlayer, I would like to see a Roon front end (a UI) to HQPlayer (this is essentially what you are asking for). However, Roon obviously went their own way - implementing their own little take on digital audiophiledom. So now you have a choice, and (for now) Roon is allowing you the consumer the choice between their upsampling, DSP, etc. and HQPlayer upsampling, DSP, etc.. This (for now) is part of Roon's marketing strategy/positioning. This is of course the normal way of things and the market....

 

Only products like MQA go against this Audiophile way of the world (you all know I was going to point this out) ;)

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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https://community.roonlabs.com/t/control-of-hq-player-within-roon/21419

 

It seems Miska can do something if he wants to....

 

I must say I do not understand the meaning of this sentence though:

 

"Use of an NAA to separate the computer running HQP from the Ethernet/USB renderer makes running a GUI on the HQP computer less significant for SQ."

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

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I believe (my way of reading it), if you make your setup as in the sentence above running any GUI will have no impact to SQ which the ultimate goal.

Vinnie Rossi LIO (AVC/Tubestage, AMP Module with built in HPF 100Hz 24dB/octave, DAC 2.0), Harbeth P3ESR, Rythmik F8

Win10 i7-7700 -> Roon -> HQPlayer DSD512- > LIO 100Hz HPF -> Harbeth P3ESR

                                                                                ->LIO  -> miniDSP <100Hz -> Rythmik F8  

 

 

 

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I'm thinking like having HQPlayer totally hidden, and just be controlled from Roon.

 

That's called HQPlayer Embedded... It can also act as a UPnP Renderer.

 

If Roon wanted to, is it technically possible for them to just add a similar control interface as yours to Roon, and access your filters etc ?

 

Yes, the possibility has existed since beginning, but not implemented at Roon side.

 

With HQPlayer embedded, they could access your algorithm and filters if they like to offer such an approach ?

 

Yes...

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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WoW. Great "News". Well to have Roon implemented it is of cause a totally different story.

 

I think if people start using ROCK, then the possibility to add HQPlayer embedded would be great. It just need a remote control.

 

If Roon is still quite reluctant to do, then maybe an iDevice (and Android) app is the way to go.

Which actually has nothing to do with Roon.

 

Miska:

How much would it take to develop an app that more or less only does the same as settings in interface do today ?

 

Is this something you can do, and if yes, are you willing to do ?

If not, how much work in hours do you think the development would be ?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

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HQPlayer and Roon are licensed separately. So you can think it just like buying a plugin for a DAW, image processing application (Photoshop), etc.

 

In think he meant that Roon would have to pay you a royalty if they were to implement HQPlayer Embedded in their product whereas with their current implementation they do not...no idea if either is true.

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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In think he meant that Roon would have to pay you a royalty if they were to implement HQPlayer Embedded in their product whereas with their current implementation they do not...no idea if either is true.

 

Well, depends how the HQPlayer Embedded license key would be supposed to end up there... Of course it is not free so there would need to be some model. But would it have to be much different from how it is now? I don't know.

 

Something being technically possible/feasible is one thing. How to arrange the licensing model is completely different topic.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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If Roon is still quite reluctant to do, then maybe an iDevice (and Android) app is the way to go.

 

Why do people always want use these mobile devices!? :D

 

It is technically possible of course.

 

If not, how much work in hours do you think the development would be ?

 

Some man months, throwing some random number in air possibly like 4 MM or so.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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