Understanding the Tube Obsession

[firedog]

Yes, we can. In fact, many modern tube amps are so clean and have such low levels of distortion of any kind that they have lost their "tube sound" and sound more like modern, low distortion, SS amps at which point one can wonder, why bother?

 

But they still sound somehow different than most solid state. Interestingly, there's now solid state amps which sound like these modern tube amps. So the two sides have converged in much of the high end side.

 

BTW, I'm about to take delivery of a Schiit Freya preamp, which functions (switchable) as any of 3 types of pre: SS, passive, and tube.

 

So I'll be able to do meaningful comparisons of the 3 modes with a press of a button. Will report back after I have some listening in.

[semente]

Yes, we can. In fact, many modern tube amps are so clean and have such low levels of distortion of any kind that they have lost their "tube sound" and sound more like modern, low distortion, SS amps at which point one can wonder, why bother?

Does the "tube sound" come from amplifying with valves, from the output transformers or both?

[gmgraves]

Does the "tube sound" come from amplifying with valves, from the output transformers or both?

 

Both, most likely. But, having lived with an OTL amp for some months, I have to say that in this case, anyway, the amp sounded very "tubey" without transformers!

[YashN]

Why does heating up a piece of metal so hot that the electrons can't stand it and leave produce the euphonic subjectivism so beloved by many?

 

It doesn't seem the other thread you created initially deriding the Single-Ended Triode Tube Amp topology as being 'euphonic', where several people described what they heard made you learn anything new.

 

We already told you there that an excellent Tube amp's goal isn't to be 'euphonic', it is to be as neutral as possible.

 

If you've convinced yourself Tube amps are 'euphonic' and are hell-bent on deriding them and by extension the people who get great sound with them, why even try to masquerade this new thread as necessary to 'promote equity' with another thread?

 

What is your goal here?

 

Have you even tried good tube amps in your setup? Have you tried a good SET Tube amp?

 

If not, are you going to try them?

[Ralf11]

You are confused. I did not deride the Single-Ended Triode Tube Amp topology - nor is saying something is 'euphonic' derisive.

 

I am now on my 2nd tube based pre-amp BTW.

 

I do not expect to buy an SET amp unless they can drive Maggies as I am addicted to Maggies (at least for now). I find them... euphonic.

 

______________________________

 

George, I do have a question (or comment) for you: ARC still hasn't gotten rid of tubes, despite their usual history of reducing their presence. Do you have any comments about them and their approach? (usually said to be relatively neutral, with the newer models becoming more and more neutral)

[Harpy]

I run 1959 tube mono locks in my on the top end and SS on the bottom. Some say it's the transformers that makes the magic, at least on vintage gear. A David Hafler wound transformer on the old Dynaco Amp some claim have a certain "sound" that a modern reproduction can't match. I ditch the old quad cap and run a beefier power supply but use mainly NOS components and Russian paper in oil caps, but at the end of the day it's probably putting some distortion back into system is what I am hearing and liking.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[TubeLover]

Thank you for clarifying. Craig Uthus is a very talented designer.

 

+1.

 

Some years ago, Craig was commissioned to design tube electronics for the console at Carnegie Hall. Great guy too. Proud to own one of his rarest amps.

 

JC

[TubeLover]

I have been through the tube and tube rolling phase, it was fun.

 

Now I have solid state that has warmth but with improved bass and dynamics.

 

Not an easy task to find solid state with that warmth. Well done!

 

JC

[Ralf11]

Not an easy task to find solid state with that warmth. Well done!

 

JC

 

I guess it's his Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)??

 

I wonder if the "cheap" Ayre pre-amp can do that?

[clipper]

+1.

 

Some years ago, Craig was commissioned to design tube electronics for the console at Carnegie Hall. Great guy too. Proud to own one of his rarest amps.

 

JC

 

+1

 

Great guy.

 

Probably 15 or so years ago when I lived in Los Angeles, I bought one of Craig's (Eddie Current's) headphone amps.

 

I drove to where he was to pick it up, and he generously spent what must have been a few hours showing me all the cool stuff in his lab/garage (other amps and audio gear, test equipment, oscilloscopes, etc.). It was an unforgettable experience.

[r_w]

Tell me about it... 20 years of trial and error.

 

 

;-)

 

 

 

Not an easy task to find solid state with that warmth. Well done!

 

JC

[r_w]

It's a combination of many things added together... when setup in a nice operating environment the Aurender is warmish, VEGA DAC is sweet, the Rowland Pre is warmish/sweet but removing GND from USB and using good LPS everywhere has added the rich analogue bloom that we associate with tubes, but being solid state it has tight bass = a pretty hard combo to get right and I'm sure it's the sum of all the nerdy tweaks that has made it possible.

 

I still like the look of tubes in the dark though, but solid state, if you can get it how you want it, can be left switched on and is usually hassle free.

 

 

I guess it's his Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)??

 

I wonder if the "cheap" Ayre pre-amp can do that?

[gmgraves]

You are confused. I did not deride the Single-Ended Triode Tube Amp topology - nor is saying something is 'euphonic' derisive.

 

I am now on my 2nd tube based pre-amp BTW.

 

I do not expect to buy an SET amp unless they can drive Maggies as I am addicted to Maggies (at least for now). I find them... euphonic.

I really don't know of any SET amps (not even the ones using big transmitter tubes) that put out more than about 50 Watts, and in my experience, that's not really enough for Maggie's, not even the Point Sevens.

______________________________

 

George, I do have a question (or comment) for you: ARC still hasn't gotten rid of tubes, despite their usual history of reducing their presence. Do you have any comments about them and their approach? (usually said to be relatively neutral, with the newer models becoming more and more neutral)

 

Audio Research equipment is very good. I used to own an SP11 and found it to be an excellent component. I don't have anything against tubes, and I have never said otherwise. I had a pair of VTL 150 monoblocks for years and loved them. But they didn't like my Martin-Logans very much. That's the only reason that I replaced them wit Solid State.

[Ralf11]

I checked and you have an HK990 listed - any desire to change that?

[ducatirider]

Can't match that tube soundstage.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[zackthedog]

Yes, we can. In fact, many modern tube amps are so clean and have such low levels of distortion of any kind that they have lost their "tube sound" and sound more like modern, low distortion, SS amps at which point one can wonder, why bother?

 

I tend to agree with you, George. Once you exceed 50 or 60 watts, much of the magic goes away, IMO.

[TubeLover]

It's a combination of many things added together... when setup in a nice operating environment the Aurender is warmish, VEGA DAC is sweet, the Rowland Pre is warmish/sweet but removing GND from USB and using good LPS everywhere has added the rich analogue bloom that we associate with tubes, but being solid state it has tight bass = a pretty hard combo to get right and I'm sure it's the sum of all the nerdy tweaks that has made it possible.

I still like the look of tubes in the dark though, but solid state, if you can get it how you want it, can be left switched on and is usually hassle free.

 

Very well put together system you have there. I also own, and am very happy with the Aurender N100, especially partnered with my Modwright Tube DAC. I'm not seeing a power amp listed in your system though?

 

JC

[TubeLover]

I still like the look of tubes in the dark though, but solid state, if you can get it how you want it, can be left switched on and is usually hassle free.

 

I'm about to undergo "tubes in the dark" withdrawal, sadly. I'm just changing over from a SET based system to new speakers and a pair of hybrid monoblocks with only one small, partially hidden tube each. During the roughly eight months or so a year when "daylight savings time" allows me to, all of my listening has been done, in the dark, with only the light of the tubes from my preamp (only partly visible) and the massive glow of the big 845's in my SET amp. I will certainly miss that. Maybe I should buy a really cheap tube amp and just turn it on for the light of the tubes! Hardly the same thing though.

 

JC

[r_w]

Well put together indeed and much of it learned here on CA.

 

 

Speakers are active, so they have active crossover and dedicated amps for each drive unit inside... the subs are active too. It's nice not to have racks of amps (but I have thought about it).

 

BTW The N100 can sound ridiculously good if you are prepared to do the USB tweaks in my sig (although they might not work for everyone).

 

;-)

 

Very well put together system you have there. I also own, and am very happy with the Aurender N100, especially partnered with my Modwright Tube DAC. I'm not seeing a power amp listed in your system though?

 

JC

[r_w]

LOL... yeah, I could do the same.

 

;-)

 

Maybe I should buy a really cheap tube amp and just turn it on for the light of the tubes! Hardly the same thing though.

 

JC

[r_w]

It is doable, but it's not an easy thing to achieve.

 

Can't match that tube soundstage.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[gmgraves]

I checked and you have an HK990 listed - any desire to change that?

Not really. It makes my M-Ls sound much better than did my VTL-150s/Audio Research SP-11 combo. The HK is true dual mono with separate power transformers for each channel, class A operation for the first 6 Watts or so, and the amp sounds superb. I got it to review, Liked it so much, that I bought it and sold my tube gear. Don't misread me. My tube gear was excellent. It's merely that my electrostatic speakers liked the SS amps better. When My speakers were a set of Magnaplaner Tympani 3Cs (all eight panels!), the tube equipment served be well.

[Ralf11]

Thx, George. HK has always had a quality product - glad to hear they still do.

[TubeLover]

Thx, George. HK has always had a quality product - glad to hear they still do.

 

That HK990 George has is a somewhat special piece of equipment. HK brought it out as an "audiophile" level integrated amplifier. The reviews were great, calling a steal for the money, and they sold out the entire run fairly quickly. Their quality is echoed by the fact that they virtually never come up for sale used. A friend of mine has been checking all the usual places for a used one for almost two years now (daily) and has seen exactly one unit appear.

 

JC