Uptone JS-2 or Vinnie Rossi Mini Pure DC 4EVR?

[tboooe]

I am looking to add another power supply for my components closest to the DAC. In my case that will be the PC acting as the NAA and the USB converter. I am curious what people's thoughts are on the Uptone JS-2 and VR Mini Pure. As I understand it these supply the DC power in very ways. I am no electrical engineer so I don't fully understand the pros and cons of the two different approaches. Any insight is appreciated.

[mozes]

Can you share more details on what the device you need to power is

 

 

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[tboooe]

Can you share more details on what the device you need to power is

 

 

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Thank you for the reply. I definitely want to power my mini PC that is currently acting as my NAA. I may switch to the micro rendu in the future. I also have a Singxer SU-1 USB converter that I want to mod to bypass its internal AC power supply with 5vdc from either the Uptone or Vinnie Rossi.

[mozes]

I have both the js-2 and the Mini. I have nimitra PC that needs 12v and both provided comparable performance. With my brooklyn dac also at 12v, the Mini was clearly better, I don't know why but this is my experience

 

 

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[tboooe]

I have both the js-2 and the Mini. I have nimitra PC that needs 12v and both provided comparable performance. With my brooklyn dac also at 12v, the Mini was clearly better, I don't know why but this is my experience

 

 

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Interesting findings. If the JS-2 and Mini gave comparable results for the PC I would be inclined to get the JS-2 since it has multiple adjustable outputs for the same price. Though in theory, the Mini power implementation is more attractive to me. Decisions decisions.

[mozes]

I would say you wont go wrong with either. The Mini is more interesting given the isolation provided as a result of the ultra capacitors, but again it has a fixed voltage and only 2.5amps. If you need the power and flexibility for multiple devices I think JS-2 is great

 

 

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[mozes]

One more thing JS-2 and the Mini are the only PSUs that I tried and I couldn't hear any noise leaking to my system even when I connected them to the same power distribution box that my amp is plugged to

 

 

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[scan80269]

I've had mixed results with the Vinnie Rossi MINI PSU.

 

In my headphones setup, changing from JS-2 to MINI for my Aries Femto resulted in an audible SQ step-up, but at my friends place, changing from Auralic LPS (16V) to MINI (12V) for his Aries Femto resulted in an audible SQ step-down. The lesson I learned is that whether a given piece of gear can benefit a specific system is often impossible to accurately predict in advance, and usually needs to be confirmed by actual listening.

 

I'm working on adding a Furman Elite 15 PFi power conditioner into my headphones setup, and afterwards plan to do another comparison between JS-2 and MINI for my Aries Femto. SQ results have been more than satisfactory with either PSU, and it was only with A/B comparison that a difference was heard.

[mozes]

I've had mixed results with the Vinnie Rossi MINI PSU.

 

In my headphones setup, changing from JS-2 to MINI for my Aries Femto resulted in an audible SQ step-up, but at my friends place, changing from Auralic LPS (16V) to MINI (12V) for his Aries Femto resulted in an audible SQ step-down. The lesson I learned is that whether a given piece of gear can benefit a specific system is often impossible to accurately predict in advance, and usually needs to be confirmed by actual listening.

 

I'm working on adding a Furman Elite 15 PFi power conditioner into my headphones setup, and afterwards plan to do another comparison between JS-2 and MINI for my Aries Femto. SQ results have been more than satisfactory with either PSU, and it was only with A/B comparison that a difference was heard.

 

Agee with you Scan, I still don't know why the Mini works much better with my Brooklyn dac than the music PC. There are so many variables in each system that it's hard to predict ahead of time

 

 

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[scan80269]

Agee with you Scan, I still don't know why the Mini works much better with my Brooklyn dac than the music PC. There are so many variables in each system that it's hard to predict ahead of time

 

 

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I can only guess that the Vinne Rossi MINI breaks a larger leakage loop with your Brooklyn DAC than with the music PC.

 

One thing that makes me hesitant to power a PC with an external LPS is that the PC motherboard typically has multiple switching regulators to generate the various voltages needed, so it is very difficult for a motherboard to avoid being electrically noisy, even when fed by a LPS. To help keep board-level noise down I've been favoring low power CPUs (in Intel NUCs for example) specifically for building NAA PCs. My most recent NAA PC build is based on a NUC5PPYH motherboard with 6W Pentium mobile CPU housed in an Akasa fanless chassis booting Windows 10 or Windows Server 2012 R2 with no local hard disk. This box lends itself well to being powered by a 12V LPS, such as the Vinne Rossi MINI but unfortunately not the UpTone LPS-1 (voltage & current output ratings both too low).

 

Despite all these efforts, a PC-based NAA may still lose out in SQ to something like a microRendu in NAA mode. More listening is needed to confirm this.

[tboooe]

To help keep board-level noise down I've been favoring low power CPUs (in Intel NUCs for example) specifically for building NAA PCs. My most recent NAA PC build is based on a NUC5PPYH motherboard with 6W Pentium mobile CPU housed in an Akasa fanless chassis booting Windows 10 or Windows Server 2012 R2 with no local hard disk. This box lends itself well to being powered by a 12V LPS, such as the Vinne Rossi MINI but unfortunately not the UpTone LPS-1 (voltage & current output ratings both too low).

 

Agreed. That is why I use an i3-5015u based mini pc. This CPU has a TDP of only 15w. Right now I am powering it from my HDPlex lps but I think I can do better with the Uptone JS-2 or Vinnie Rossi.

 

Despite all these efforts, a PC-based NAA may still lose out in SQ to something like a microRendu in NAA mode. More listening is needed to confirm this.

 

I am really on the fence about this. I really want to try the microrendu and compare it against my mini PC as an NAA. I am not liking that price tag though! My mini pc only cost me $125 from China since I already had the SSD and memory. One of these days I will get around to trying out the microrendu.

[scan80269]

Agreed. That is why I use an i3-5015u based mini pc. This CPU has a TDP of only 15w. Right now I am powering it from my HDPlex lps but I think I can do better with the Uptone JS-2 or Vinnie Rossi.

 

I am really on the fence about this. I really want to try the microrendu and compare it against my mini PC as an NAA. I am not liking that price tag though! My mini pc only cost me $125 from China since I already had the SSD and memory. One of these days I will get around to trying out the microrendu.

 

I hear you. My testing with microRendu has shown it can benefit from isolation measures applied to Ethernet, DC power and perhaps even USB interface, but these will add even more cost to the total solution.

 

One thing I noticed about HDPlex LPS designs is that the power rectifiers used are of standard silicon type. Contrast this with the Schottky rectifiers used in the SBooster BOTW linear power supplies. During the past month I was busy modifying a few Teradak X1/X2 and 30W LPS with Schottky diodes and better electrolytic caps for audio friends and myself. These Teradaks are unlikely to match the performance of JS-2 or VR MINI but the former have much lower cost and being decent traditional LPS designs can still tangibly outperform SMPS wall warts in audio systems.

 

The pursuit of better SQ can be a slippery slope indeed!

[mozes]

I can only guess that the Vinne Rossi MINI breaks a larger leakage loop with your Brooklyn DAC than with the music PC.

 

One thing that makes me hesitant to power a PC with an external LPS is that the PC motherboard typically has multiple switching regulators to generate the various voltages needed, so it is very difficult for a motherboard to avoid being electrically noisy, even when fed by a LPS. To help keep board-level noise down I've been favoring low power CPUs (in Intel NUCs for example) specifically for building NAA PCs. My most recent NAA PC build is based on a NUC5PPYH motherboard with 6W Pentium mobile CPU housed in an Akasa fanless chassis booting Windows 10 or Windows Server 2012 R2 with no local hard disk. This box lends itself well to being powered by a 12V LPS, such as the Vinne Rossi MINI but unfortunately not the UpTone LPS-1 (voltage & current output ratings both too low).

 

Despite all these efforts, a PC-based NAA may still lose out in SQ to something like a microRendu in NAA mode. More listening is needed to confirm this.

 

I agree with you big time on the advantage of low power CPUs especially for me as I don't do any upsampling. Just like in health related issues, prevention can be much more effective than treatment

 

 

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[One and a half]

I'm working on adding a Furman Elite 15 PFi power conditioner into my headphones setup, and afterwards plan to do another comparison between JS-2 and MINI for my Aries Femto. SQ results have been more than satisfactory with either PSU, and it was only with A/B comparison that a difference was heard.

 

Oh, the power conditioner won't help much, it adds its own colour to the AC supply for the worse.

If you're still thinking of AC power conditioning, a Topaz Isolation transformer will remove the common mode noise from the house and surge suppression to the audio components far better than a power conditioner & is cheaper. Invest in non surge suppression power strips and you're good to go.

 

An online UPS in front of the transformer can be added at a later date to maintain stability.

[asdf1000]

Oh, the power conditioner won't help much, it adds its own colour to the AC supply for the worse.

If you're still thinking of AC power conditioning, a Topaz Isolation transformer will remove the common mode noise from the house and surge suppression to the audio components far better than a power conditioner & is cheaper. Invest in non surge suppression power strips and you're good to go.

 

An online UPS in front of the transformer can be added at a later date to maintain stability.

Hi mate, how exactly does an Topaz like iso transformer provide good surge suppression? I followed the exact advice you gave here (which John S also provided) but never fully understood how the low inter-winding capacitance (< 0.01pF) helps with surge suppression. Always interested to understand why it's effective but always forgot to ask ! :-)

[One and a half]

Hi mate, how exactly does an Topaz like iso transformer provide good surge suppression? I followed the exact advice you gave here (which John S also provided) but never fully understood how the low inter-winding capacitance (< 0.01pF) helps with surge suppression. Always interested to understand why it's effective but always forgot to ask ! :-)

 

Ideally, the capacitance between the windings should be nil, but never reaches this ideal.

The lower the capacitance the lower the chance to transmit 'bad' noisy frequencies from the primary to the secondary. The Topaz has a very low figure, so has a high attenuation of problem frequencies which is what we want.

 

Xc = (2 x pi x f x C) ^-1 is the formula. The lower the C, the higher the Xc (Capactive reactance). Being a transformer, there's a few more formulas, but that's essentially it.

[asdf1000]

Ideally, the capacitance between the windings should be nil, but never reaches this ideal.

The lower the capacitance the lower the chance to transmit 'bad' noisy frequencies from the primary to the secondary. The Topaz has a very low figure, so has a high attenuation of problem frequencies which is what we want.

 

Xc = (2 x pi x f x C) ^-1 is the formula. The lower the C, the higher the Xc (Capactive reactance). Being a transformer, there's a few more formulas, but that's essentially it.

Ah fantastic. I always (wrongly?) thought that when John S and yourself were discussing surge suppression and the low interwinding capacitance, that you were talking about lightning surges - I'm completely wrong (as usual) right?

[One and a half]

Ah fantastic. I always (wrongly?) thought that when John S and yourself were discussing surge suppression and the low interwinding capacitance, that you were talking about lightning surges - I'm completely wrong (as usual) right?

 

If you really want to get technical

 

Summary

The isolation transformer is an SPC (surge protective device) as it provides surge mitigation for common-mode surges; however it does not provide surge mitigation for differential-mode surges.

 

What that means if the voltage impressed on the two wires feeding the transformer, (differential mode) the same voltage will appear on the other side So if there is a surge of 10,000V on the Topaz, the secondary will also see 10,000V. By then the insulation would have broken down and exploded. Don't worry, it's an extreme case, for a house, very rare, but other bits in front of the transformer usually are taken out first.

 

If the voltage is assymetric, or on the common mode line, say 1000V on the upper side input and 1500V on the lower, the transformer will suppress that variant reasonably well.

[asdf1000]

If you really want to get technical

 

Summary

The isolation transformer is an SPC (surge protective device) as it provides surge mitigation for common-mode surges; however it does not provide surge mitigation for differential-mode surges.

 

What that means if the voltage impressed on the two wires feeding the transformer, (differential mode) the same voltage will appear on the other side So if there is a surge of 10,000V on the Topaz, the secondary will also see 10,000V. By then the insulation would have broken down and exploded. Don't worry, it's an extreme case, for a house, very rare, but other bits in front of the transformer usually are taken out first.

 

If the voltage is assymetric, or on the common mode line, say 1000V on the upper side input and 1500V on the lower, the transformer will suppress that variant reasonably well.

Once again, thanks for dumbing it down for a dumbo like me !! :-)

 

Final question based on this - are surges of ~1000V and ~1500V (and this order of magnitude) only caused by lightning/storms , or can other things cause surges of these magnitudes?

 

Thanks heaps again

 

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[One and a half]

Once again, thanks for dumbing it down for a dumbo like me !! :-)

 

Final question based on this - are surges of ~1000V and ~1500V (and this order of magnitude) only caused by lightning/storms , or can other things cause surges of these magnitudes?

 

Thanks heaps again

 

Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk

 

High voltages like 1000V can occur and take out sensitive electronics, like

- high power contactor coils

- Large motors switching off

- Capacitor Bank switching

- Drivers impacting power poles causing HV to drop onto consumer mains

- Neglect/cause of the Power Utility

- Trees/branches falling on power lines

- Lightning

- Stupid people trying to steal copper from live equipment

 

First three occur in large industrial plants, the others can happen anytime, probability is low, but not zero, that's the problem. The last item, well, once again it's up to others to clean up stupidity.

 

It all depends on how far and the magnitude of the spike and what it does. Late one night I was on computer, when I saw out of the window, a power pole insulator light up and flash across the wire to the pole. Made a nice mess of the pole, the PC survived (486!), rest of the house was OK but the clock on the oven didn't work.

 

Nothing much can survive a direct lightning hit, other than to install equipment on the roof to guide the strike to a safe position or unplug the equipment.

[asdf1000]

thanks again. we just had a 1 in 100 year storm a few days ago so I unplugged my iso Transformer from the wall. It meant I had to find something else to do for a few hours. Got some good house keeping done in that time!

 

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[asdf1000]

having this in the wall with the iso transformer going into it would work well right: https://www.soundseasy.com.au/products/furman-ac-210-a-e-compact-power-conditioner?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googlepla&variant=22431124228&gclid=CL3r5czzodECFUsHvAod-nQGDg

 

6000V surge protection?

 

So a chain like: Furman power conditioner > Topaz > bare wire powerboard

 

 

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[One and a half]

having this in the wall with the iso transformer going into it would work well right: https://www.soundseasy.com.au/products/furman-ac-210-a-e-compact-power-conditioner?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googlepla&variant=22431124228&gclid=CL3r5czzodECFUsHvAod-nQGDg

 

6000V surge protection?

 

So a chain like: Furman power conditioner > Topaz > bare wire powerboard

 

 

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No, power conditioning like the Furman you mention, cannot completely remove conducted noise, and cause a higher impedance on the primary of the ISO transformer. We want low impedance on the front side to carry low frequency harmonics back to the source.

 

Rather complex, huh.

 

Surge protection is best at the switchboard, like Critec or SurgeX.

[asdf1000]

No, power conditioning like the Furman you mention, cannot completely remove conducted noise, and cause a higher impedance on the primary of the ISO transformer. We want low impedance on the front side to carry low frequency harmonics back to the source.

 

Rather complex, huh.

 

Surge protection is best at the switchboard, like Critec or SurgeX.

Jeeze, very complicated indeed, but hell interesting. I think I'll happily stick to unplugging from the wall during storms, until I move house, in which case i'll go the "real deal" with protection like SurgeX you mentioned

 

 

 

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[jtwrace]

I use Zero Surge on all my important electronics within my home and work. They own the technology that is licensed to SurgeX for instance. They also have a lot of great info on their site.

 

Zero Surge | Superior, non-MOV surge protectors