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Ethernet Cables - which are the most important?


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Which nonsense? The nonsense about Ethernet cables having sonic attributes? Why can't some of this BS simply be verboten here. At a computer based audio forum?

 

Here's the deal. Say what you want, but be respectful. When you use the language you used, it only hurts your points. Nobody, I mean absolutely nobody, is going to read what you wrote and decide to change their view.

 

Plus, nobody is submitting results for FDA testing where someone might get killed. This is audio. There are no emergencies here. Let people talk about what they experience and say what they believe. As long as they say it respectfully, it's all good. This goes for you as well. Say what you believe, but do it respectfully. Also, don't use an excuse like - he said it first. I'm not accusing you of doing so, but this post will be read by others who use that excuse often.

 

I'm not attacking you, just your tone. You have very valuable things to offer the forum and appreciate your comments much of the time.

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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"Eppur si muove." ;)

Yes, I am well aware of that, which is why, as I mentioned, I was dubious about the possibility that anything involving Ethernet cables would make any difference. However: When I said I had a "noise sniffer" type box in the circuit that made system noise audible, I mean *very* audible, nothing on the fringes of perception. And the Baaske transformer beyond any doubt considerably reduced the volume of this noise.

 

Were the Ethernet cables shielded?

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Were the Ethernet cables shielded?

 

Blue Jean Cat6a is all I know. Are they shielded? I used a single 1 meter length without the Baaske, then a second 1 meter length with the Baaske in the middle.

 

Edit: Ah, here's Kurt Denke of Blue Jeans talking about their Cat6a cable shielding:

 

Our 6A uses an absorptive shield—that is, the cable is shielded but the shield is not terminated at either end

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Hi,

IMO, a good(audiophile) ethernet cable will improve the sound when it is hooked to end point of the network e.g network player/Dac. Sorry for my limited knowledge about networking but it is the result after our test of different ethernet cables: normal one, Audioquest Forest, Melco C1ae, Nordost Blue heaven/Hiemdal 2. We used Melco N1A, PChiend, NUC as a direct streamer (no NAS, no router) to PS PW + bridge 1.

 

Appropriate if someone can explain because it is out of our knowledge?

thank you.

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still waiting on the comparison studies ...

 

re playing god - scientists, not to mention others, are always asserting that people cannot hear, see or smell something

 

e.g. humans cannot see into the UV range but bees can

 

I do have a (possible) quarrel with the 20 kHz limit assertion however. It is based on some very old studies of sine waves, presented with delays between different frequencies.

 

I'd like to see what happens when pulses are presented - it is possible that pulses with > 20 kHz components could be distinguished from ones w/o that. That would follow everything we know about human and vertebrate sensory systems. They function well for short term comparisons, less well for longer memory based comparisons.

 

edge-detectors, if you will

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Edit: Ah, here's Kurt Denke of Blue Jeans talking about their Cat6a cable shielding:

"Our 6A uses an absorptive shield—that is, the cable is shielded but the shield is not terminated at either end"

Interesting. I guess my DIY USB connector is quite similar in principle.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

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I get the gist but...

 

 

Every time you connect kit with wire you increase 'the electrical network' and spread more noise about... that's why fibre makes the most sense to me.

 

I agree that big dollar Ethernet cable feels like money very poorly allocated, fibre would appear IMHO to be the optimal choice.

 

I get how robust TCP/IP is, same for async USB data... it's the electrical connection that potentially affects sound, that's why I removed all of the GNDs in my USB chain and use FMCs for fiber LAN.

 

Data is robust, but all electrical connections can affect SQ in revealing systems.

 

(in short I would never advocate high price Ethernet cables over fibre, I do the fibre conversion and keep the wired server end short)

 

 

 

Which nonsense? The nonsense about Ethernet cables having sonic attributes? Why can't some of this BS simply be verboten here. At a computer based audio forum?

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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I think that essentially all Ethernet cables are fine for data -- BJC probably allows a longer cable length but it's easy to measure packet dropout which should be zero (or near zero).

 

That doesn't mean that leakage currents aren't present. They certainly are. Sonic benefits of isolators go along with that. No nonsense. What is nonsense is solving a leakage current problem with a crazy expensive cable which, sorry, will only partially solve the problem at best.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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I get the gist but...

 

 

Every time you connect kit with wire you increase 'the electrical network' and spread more noise about... that's why fibre makes the most sense to me.

 

I agree that big dollar Ethernet cable feels like money very poorly allocated, fibre would appear IMHO to be the optimal choice.

 

I get how robust TCP/IP is, same for async USB data... it's the electrical connection that potentially affects sound, that's why I removed all of the GNDs in my USB chain and use FMCs for fiber LAN.

 

Data is robust, but all electrical connections can affect SQ in revealing systems.

 

(in short I would never advocate high price Ethernet cables over fibre, I do the fibre conversion and keep the wired server end short)

 

As always, I'd think the answer is "it depends." If power supplies or opto-electric conversion inject more noise than they stop, then they haven't improved things.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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As always, I'd think the answer is "it depends." If power supplies or opto-electric conversion inject more noise than they stop, then they haven't improved things.

 

If you power the fiber FMCs with 5V batteries then you entirely solve the "inject more noise" problem.

 

Or in my case with direct SFP input there is less noise than with copper Ethernet.

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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Technically speaking can anyone comment on this cable:

 

Cat 8 is one step ahead by providing a future proof cable, e.g. 40GBASE-T over one singel cable! It is used advantageously in TCP/IP and UDP applications where correct jitter-free data transmissions is critical, e.g. 4K and 8K video streaming, high quality music streaming (e.g. 32 bits @ < 700 kHz for some downloadable music), gaming, data centers and in-building installations.

 

HDBaseT is transmitted over 6A up to 100 m (328 ft) long, with 8P8C modular connectors of the type commonly used for ethernet local area network connections. From Cat 6A to Cat 8 the step is four times the bandwidth. Cat 8 allows for 2,000 MHz(!) an incredible transfer speed providing for quality enhancing massive headroom.

 

HDBaseT transmits uncompressed ultra-high-definition video (up to 4K), audio, power over HDBaseT (PoHDBaseT - up to 100W), Ethernet, USB, and a series of controls such as RS and IR.

 

 

Features and benefits

 

  • Performance better than "8.2" according to preliminary specification IEC 61156-10 - Astonishing future proof transfer speeds
  • Excellent NEXT (or crosstalk), very low dampening and mutual lead pair interference - Bit correct transfers
  • Low dampening - long cable lengths without signal degradation or voltage drops for PoE
  • Excellent shielding, both pair and total - Almost completely interference immune with very low pick-up
  • Low jitter, perfect timing - Very low bit stream timing errors gives low needs for error corrections, thus high transfer speeds
  • Bandwidth at 2,000 MHz - Buckle up because this is going to be a ride to remember ...
  • Flame retardent, halogen-free - Allowed in public spaces and buildings

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Agree, clean power to the FMC is king, and good opto-electronics, or you merely solve one problem and create another.

 

;-)

 

As always, I'd think the answer is "it depends." If power supplies or opto-electric conversion inject more noise than they stop, then they haven't improved things.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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I think that essentially all Ethernet cables are fine for data -- BJC probably allows a longer cable length but it's easy to measure packet dropout which should be zero (or near zero).

 

That doesn't mean that leakage currents aren't present. They certainly are. Sonic benefits of isolators go along with that. No nonsense. What is nonsense is solving a leakage current problem with a crazy expensive cable which, sorry, will only partially solve the problem at best.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How much leakage current passes through an Ethernet transformer?

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That exactly mirrors my take on it.

 

I think that essentially all Ethernet cables are fine for data -- BJC probably allows a longer cable length but it's easy to measure packet dropout which should be zero (or near zero).

 

That doesn't mean that leakage currents aren't present. They certainly are. Sonic benefits of isolators go along with that. No nonsense. What is nonsense is solving a leakage current problem with a crazy expensive cable which, sorry, will only partially solve the problem at best.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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Personally I have no idea other than I heard a noticeable improvement by going fibre.

 

I have a feeling it might be another case of theory of perfection not working quite so well in practice?

 

This stuff always baffles me.

 

How much leakage current passes through an Ethernet transformer?

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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How much leakage current passes through an Ethernet transformer?

 

If I may answer a question with a question, any idea what was responsible for the audible noise reduction when inserting the Baaske transformer in my system?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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If you power the fiber FMCs with 5V batteries then you entirely solve the "inject more noise" problem.

 

Or in my case with direct SFP input there is less noise than with copper Ethernet.

 

I guess that depends also on the battery supplies internal voltage regulators as well? Have you tried to power the FMCs with 7,4-8,4v unregulated battery supply?

I have just received my TP-Link FMCs (MC100CM) and will initially power the downstream one with Kingrex uPowers 5v linear regulated output...but will soon also receive a 7,4-8,4v unregulated battery pack for comparison.

I will make my own DIY unshielded Ethernet cables with silver plated 22awg wires and screw terminal RJ45 plugs. I will compare two pair configuration (100Base-TX) with one pair configuration (100Base-T1 if it works at all that is).

BTW. I have a F-plug DC blocker coming as well. My router is using SAT input so I will see if it will improve anything. Just a long shot.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

 

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Ethernet cables are CMNR, Transformer Coupled, and noise immune at 50/60hz and exhibit great noise rejection characteristics up to 30MHz.

 

Both T.I. and Siemons have white papers that explore the robustness of CAT5 cabling. T.I. also makes a valid point in any switched environment and that is the single ended nature of the power supplies being the Achilles heel. But that's a PSU issue and not cabling.

 

One other thing: Guess the SNR for Ethernet.

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If I may answer a question with a question, any idea what was responsible for the audible noise reduction when inserting the Baaske transformer in my system?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Did a $350, 3 foot, cable fix this issue. This is what the thread topic is about (expensive Ethernet cables having some sort of audible signature).

 

I run wireless so I don't have to worry about those issues.

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Perhaps the OP is open to other solutions. I have no idea whether an expensive cable would be good value for money since I've never tried it, though I'm skeptical.

 

I run wireless from the music source to the local router/bridge, Ethernet cable from there to an NAA or laptop (the NAA is battery powered, the laptop is sometimes), and from there to the DAC via USB.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Ethernet cables are CMNR, Transformer Coupled, and noise immune at 50/60hz and exhibit great noise rejection characteristics up to 30MHz.

 

Both T.I. and Siemons have white papers that explore the robustness of CAT5 cabling. T.I. also makes a valid point in any switched environment and that is the single ended nature of the power supplies being the Achilles heel. But that's a PSU issue and not cabling.

 

One other thing: Guess the SNR for Ethernet.

 

Interesting information and exactly the nuggets I look for from you :~)

 

Do you know why the medical world uses Ethernet isolators like the Baaske units?

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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Interesting information and exactly the nuggets I look for from you :~)

 

Do you know why the medical world uses Ethernet isolators like the Baaske units?

I looked it up: http://baaske-medical.de/isolation/ethernet-isolation/

 

It provides isolation up to 5 kV for protection of patients and equipment from voltage spikes should they somehow enter the network. In other words, it's a safety device.

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