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What's the deal with SET? (Single-end Triodes)


Ralf11

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I am sorry if I have offended you. I simply feel we have an epistemology issue in that I do not consider a horn loaded port a horn speaker, and that amp has two output tubes making it by definition not "single ended".

 

No offense at all! I have a lot to learn; when starting down this road (perhaps the wrong one) I did not know a whole lot about horns and SET's in the first place. But in 'dipping my ears' into the single driver/tube sound, I really like what I am hearing. This current system will evolve as I learn more about the horn/SET world. I really appreaciste your input, especially from a fellow Maggie guy ?

 

Sam

C.A.P. Pipeline, windows pro 10 > Roon > SOtM USB > Keces power supply > HDplex power supply > 4x2 HD Mini DSP > Ayre DSD QB-9 > Naim CDX > ModWright 9 S.E. Preamp > A21 Parasound Amplifier > Magnepan .7 > Augie's Dipole sub, ML sub, DIY sub > Dedicated room with acoustical treatment.

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No offense at all! I have a lot to learn; when starting down this road (perhaps the wrong one) I did not know a whole lot about horns and SET's in the first place. But in 'dipping my ears' into the single driver/tube sound, I really like what I am hearing. This current system will evolve as I learn more about the horn/SET world. I really appreaciste your input, especially from a fellow Maggie guy ��

 

Sam

 

Good! If I may say then, there is no substitute for actual horns and the immediacy they portray. They come with trade offs as may have noted. Mainly size and price to get it right. I have been considering making a replica (sort of) of an Altec 820. Not the pinnacle of transparency, but fun as hell!

 

ALTEC 820 双15寸低音旗舰音箱系统_已售专区_名昇古董音响,古董音响,二手音响,发烧音响 - 音响贵族网

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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I am sorry if I have offended you. I simply feel we have an epistemology issue in that I do not consider a horn loaded port a horn speaker, and that amp has two output tubes making it by definition not "single ended".

 

I'm not sure what you're basing this opinion on. A horn-loaded driver is a horn-loaded driver. You can load a speaker driver at the front, as some designs do, or at the rear, as other designs do. A *compression* driver can only be loaded by a front horn, since it has no back wave action to load. But that's not the only kind of driver you can use in a horn-loaded speaker. A horn is a horn, regardless of how you configure it. A ported cabinet design is something else altogether.

 

You appear to demand a "purist" approach wherein only compression drivers with front-loaded horns comprise a "horn" system. That's up to you, and you would be right to say that this is a more efficient and dynamic arrangement, but it's not the only way to employ a horn. In the same way you seem to feel that only an amplifier using a single output tube is truly an "SET" but that also is purely a matter of preference on your part.

 

In reality, single-ended is single-ended, whether you use one tube or two tubes or ten tubes in parallel. The fact that the Cary amp in this instance uses two triode-wired EL84s in parallel makes it no less single-ended than a single-ended 300B amplifier. What defines "single-ended" is the use of one device (or a series of devices arrayed in parallel to mimic a single device) to amplify both phases of the audio signal. This as opposed to a push-pull arrangement, in which the audio signal is divided into two phases, one device amplifying the positive phase and another device amplifying the negative phase of the signal.

 

The "epitomological" question is one of your own making, and you're entitled to it, but to avoid confusing others, we should be clear: Single-ended is single-ended. The only quibble one might make is using the acronym "SET" when referring to a single-ended *pentode* amplifier, since this violates the "triode" part of the equation. And even though an "SEP" amp might require feedback in a way that some purists would find objectionable, you're still deriving many of the benefits of single-ended operation. The single-ended amplifier Had describes in the quoted article is an SEP. The Had amplifier actually pictured above uses two triode-wired EL84s, so it is indeed what it claims to be--an SET amplifier.

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I'm not sure what you're basing this opinion on. A horn-loaded driver is a horn-loaded driver. You can load a speaker driver at the front, as some designs do, or at the rear, as other designs do. A *compression* driver can only be loaded by a front horn, since it has no back wave action to load. But that's not the only kind of driver you can use in a horn-loaded speaker. A horn is a horn, regardless of how you configure it. A ported cabinet design is something else altogether.

 

You appear to demand a "purist" approach wherein only compression drivers with front-loaded horns comprise a "horn" system. That's up to you, and you would be right to say that this is a more efficient and dynamic arrangement, but it's not the only way to employ a horn. In the same way you seem to feel that only an amplifier using a single output tube is truly an "SET" but that also is purely a matter of preference on your part.

 

In reality, single-ended is single-ended, whether you use one tube or two tubes or ten tubes in parallel. The fact that the Cary amp in this instance uses two triode-wired EL84s in parallel makes it no less single-ended than a single-ended 300B amplifier. What defines "single-ended" is the use of one device (or a series of devices arrayed in parallel to mimic a single device) to amplify both phases of the audio signal. This as opposed to a push-pull arrangement, in which the audio signal is divided into two phases, one device amplifying the positive phase and another device amplifying the negative phase of the signal.

 

The "epitomological" question is one of your own making, and you're entitled to it, but to avoid confusing others, we should be clear: Single-ended is single-ended. The only quibble one might make is using the acronym "SET" when referring to a single-ended *pentode* amplifier, since this violates the "triode" part of the equation. And even though an "SEP" amp might require feedback in a way that some purists would find objectionable, you're still deriving many of the benefits of single-ended operation. The single-ended amplifier Had describes in the quoted article is an SEP. The Had amplifier actually pictured above uses two triode-wired EL84s, so it is indeed what it claims to be--an SET amplifier.

 

I respectfully disagree except for the "single ended" bit. The "avoid confusing others" is the part that I take the greatest disagreement with. I specifically was being pedantic in so that others do not mistake the arrangement pictured to be an good exemplification what an SET/horns set up is. I am no stranger to this, and have been involved with that type of gear for decades. That system pictured, if indeed it is what you say, is an outlier, and likely does not have the real magic that many are describing they perceive from uber efficient horns and great tubes.

 

Of course, you may call it what ever you like, but it doesn't really make it so. And don't get me started on that "port is a horn"...

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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I would add that *any* consumer-friendly horn system is going to be a hybrid system, with a horn-loaded cone driver or a powered subwoofer to handle the low frequencies. A "true" low-frequency horn would take up half the house. ;-)

 

Thanks very much for your percise and easy to follow explanation. I don't feel as bad that I totally did not screwed up or was misled by the sellers regarding the horns and the amp that purchased. I will continue to follow this thread and find other info on the Internet.

By the way my wife and I are driving down to Newport Beach tomorrow and we will be going through Medford. We are looking forward to drying out and warming up. ??

C.A.P. Pipeline, windows pro 10 > Roon > SOtM USB > Keces power supply > HDplex power supply > 4x2 HD Mini DSP > Ayre DSD QB-9 > Naim CDX > ModWright 9 S.E. Preamp > A21 Parasound Amplifier > Magnepan .7 > Augie's Dipole sub, ML sub, DIY sub > Dedicated room with acoustical treatment.

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Thanks very much for your percise and easy to follow explanation. I don't feel as bad that I totally did not screwed up or was misled by the sellers regarding the horns and the amp that purchased. I will continue to follow this thread and find other info on the Internet.

By the way my wife and I are driving down to Newport Beach tomorrow and we will be going through Medford. We are looking forward to drying out and warming up.

 

Once again, I meant no offense, and a set up such as yours can be very satisfying.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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Once again, I meant no offense, and a set up such as yours can be very satisfying.

 

Forrest your cool! This is what makes the hobbie fasinating, many different perspectives. Sam

C.A.P. Pipeline, windows pro 10 > Roon > SOtM USB > Keces power supply > HDplex power supply > 4x2 HD Mini DSP > Ayre DSD QB-9 > Naim CDX > ModWright 9 S.E. Preamp > A21 Parasound Amplifier > Magnepan .7 > Augie's Dipole sub, ML sub, DIY sub > Dedicated room with acoustical treatment.

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I respectfully disagree except for the "single ended" bit. The "avoid confusing others" is the part that I take the greatest disagreement with. I specifically was being pedantic in so that others do not mistake the arrangement pictured to be an good exemplification what an SET/horns set up is. I am no stranger to this, and have been involved with that type of gear for decades. That system pictured, if indeed it is what you say, is an outlier, and likely does not have the real magic that many are describing they perceive from uber efficient horns and great tubes.

 

Of course, you may call it what ever you like, but it doesn't really make it so. And don't get me started on that "port is a horn"...

 

Well, I would respectfully suggest that it's a disservice to people who want to experience a high-efficiency, single-ended amplification system to insist that there's only one way to do it. The system shum3s assembled combines a genuine, certified SET amplifier with efficient, horn-loaded speakers. If we want to throw around experience, I've been building and using single-ended amplifiers for coming on twenty years now, and heard many low-wattage, high-efficiency systems, and it's just a fact that there's more than one way to do it. I would even suggest that unless you have a lot of money (or a lot of money PLUS tons of patience and expertise to build your own), you might want to *avoid* a compression-driver horn system because they require a lot of space, quality components are costly and they are very difficult to get right. For many hobbyists they are frankly impractical.

 

If you'd like to get started on how exactly "a port is a horn," it's not a busy day at the office on my end. ;-)

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Thanks very much for your percise and easy to follow explanation. I don't feel as bad that I totally did not screwed up or was misled by the sellers regarding the horns and the amp that purchased. I will continue to follow this thread and find other info on the Internet.

By the way my wife and I are driving down to Newport Beach tomorrow and we will be going through Medford. We are looking forward to drying out and warming up. 

Good heavens, stop by, even just for a handshake. PM me if you want to stretch your legs. That's a long drive. :-)

 

And no, you were not misled at all. What you've purchased is a common and perfectly acceptable route toward the goal. Within my old DIY community back east, there are lots of different approaches to high-efficiency systems.

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Well, I would respectfully suggest that it's a disservice to people who want to experience a high-efficiency, single-ended amplification system to insist that there's only one way to do it. The system shum3s assembled combines a genuine, certified SET amplifier with efficient, horn-loaded speakers. If we want to throw around experience, I've been building and using single-ended amplifiers for coming on twenty years now, and heard many low-wattage, high-efficiency systems, and it's just a fact that there's more than one way to do it. I would even suggest that unless you have a lot of money (or a lot of money PLUS tons of patience and expertise to build your own), you might want to *avoid* a compression-driver horn system because they require a lot of space, quality components are costly and they are very difficult to get right. For many hobbyists they are frankly impractical.

 

If you'd like to get started on how exactly "a port is a horn," it's not a busy day at the office on my end. ;-)

I never said there was only one way to enjoy high efficiency.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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Thanks very much for your percise and easy to follow explanation. I don't feel as bad that I totally did not screwed up or was misled by the sellers regarding the horns and the amp that purchased. I will continue to follow this thread and find other info on the Internet.

By the way my wife and I are driving down to Newport Beach tomorrow and we will be going through Medford. We are looking forward to drying out and warming up. ??

To be precise, you did not buy horn speakers, but a pair of conventional speakers that use a horn to "help" the low end extension.

The operating range of the horn is quite narrow and comparatively unimportant.

It is there to make up for the low frequency disability of the tiny wideband driver, which also suffers from other shortcomings such as uptiltilg frequency response from bass to treble, high intermodulation distortion, limited dynamic abilities and considerable beaming in the top end.

But they do play louder with low-power amplifiers.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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To be precise, you did not buy horn speakers, but a pair of conventional speakers that use a horn to "help" the low end extension.

The operating range of the horn is quite narrow and comparatively unimportant.

It is there to make up for the low frequency disability of the tiny wideband driver, which also suffers from other shortcomings such as uptiltilg frequency response from bass to treble, high intermodulation distortion, limited dynamic abilities and considerable beaming in the top end.

But they do play louder with low-power amplifiers.

 

R

 

Compression drivers also use horns to "help" amplify certain frequencies. A horn is a horn, regardless of what kind of driver you use it with. The original Lowther speaker was a corner horn speaker. Just because we traditionally associate horns with front-loaded compression drivers doesn't make a back-loaded horn any less of a horn.

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Compression drivers also use horns to "help" amplify certain frequencies. A horn is a horn, regardless of what kind of driver you use it with. The original Lowther speaker was a horn speaker. Just because we traditionally associate horns with compression drivers doesn't make a back-loaded horn any less of a horn.

You are correct that one can use conventional cones with horns.

If I am not mistaken Avant-garde used Audax cones in their Duo and Trio models.

 

Horns have to be band-passed if they're to be adequately used in their optimum range and a multiway full range all horn speaker is indeed a monster in size and price.

 

But backloaded horns are not that different from ported cabinets.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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You are correct that one can use conventional cones with horns.

If I am not mistaken Avant-garde used Audax cones in their Duo and Trio models.

 

Horns have to be band-passed if they're to be adequately used in their optimum range and a multiway full range all horn speaker is indeed a monster in size and price.

 

But backloaded horns are not that different from ported cabinets.

 

But they are--really. If they weren't much different, you wouldn't get such an increase in efficiency.

 

why is a tapped horn more efficient than ported? - diyAudio

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I'm not sure what you're basing this opinion on. A horn-loaded driver is a horn-loaded driver. You can load a speaker driver at the front, as some designs do, or at the rear, as other designs do.

 

In the same way you seem to feel that only an amplifier using a single output tube is truly an "SET" but that also is purely a matter of preference on your part. In reality, single-ended is single-ended, whether you use one tube or two tubes or ten tubes in parallel. The fact that the Cary amp in this instance uses two triode-wired EL84s in parallel makes it no less single-ended than a single-ended 300B amplifier. What defines "single-ended" is the use of one device (or a series of devices arrayed in parallel to mimic a single device) to amplify both phases of the audio signal. This as opposed to a push-pull arrangement, in which the audio signal is divided into two phases, one device amplifying the positive phase and another device amplifying the negative phase of the signal.

 

The "epitomological" question is one of your own making

 

Entirely correct. 4est is utterly mistaken there, both for the horn and for his assumption that when 'people speak about SET' they/we mean there must be a single output tube.

 

It's of course based on the topology as contrasted with a push-pull one (and the phase change and recombination issues that come with the latter).

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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Operating linear range and loudspeaker sensitivity are the operative words for using S.E.T. amplification.

I would add easy load to sensitivity.

Which of you S.E.T. users is actually abiding to the "rules"?

But I see that @YashN is running his S.E.T. full-range with a pair of Totem Mites.

 

I don't care what you think your rules are. I know what I'm doing.

For you and others like you more inclined to barge in and lob facile criticism to try and stroke their own ego instead of actually paying attention to how the thread evolved from the start or to what was said:

 

The rendering of attacks by my SET is utterly crazy, and I don't even yet have really highly efficient speakers yet (fortunately, small distance between those and the seating position though, so it's loud enough).

 

Certainly a must. In fact, I am re-building my system around my SET. Going to give it all it needs to shine through the best it can so mostly for the mid-range, and then complement with other equipment where needed.

 

SETs are best with high-efficiency speakers, that's all.

 

Do you use SET with your Totem Mites? I would expect them to be too inefficient (my Model One Signatures will be).

 

Sent from my D6633 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

They are. I am fortunate enough to be sitting rather close to them and the room is small in that distance.

Doesn't mean I am satisfied: I am designing and building my own Open Baffles with high-efficiency drivers for the SET.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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As a result of its single-ended nature, the harmonic content of air is primarily 2nd order, and most of the distortion of a single tone is second harmonic. Air's distortion characteristic is monotonic, which is to say its distortion products decrease smoothly as the acoustic level decreases. This is an important element which has often been overlooked in audio design and is reflected in the poor quality of early solid state amplifiers and D/A and A/D converters. They are not monotonic: the distortion increases as the level decreases."

I've recently switched to SET mono amps and ultra-high efficiency speakers (109dB/W@1m) and wouldn't go back to any other config now (tried many, many over the years).

This reminds me that find high rate DSD through my SET amp so good I thought of making a thread about it: Lampise your DSD.

 

The nature of DSD is quite analogous to how sound travels though varying pressure or density of air molecules: the signal is correlated to density of data.

 

High-rate DSD through a native DSD DAC and a SET Tube amp really is something special.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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To be precise, you did not buy horn speakers, but a pair of conventional speakers that use a horn to "help" the low end extension.

The operating range of the horn is quite narrow and comparatively unimportant.

It is there to make up for the low frequency disability of the tiny wideband driver, which also suffers from other shortcomings such as uptiltilg frequency response from bass to treble, high intermodulation distortion, limited dynamic abilities and considerable beaming in the top end.

But they do play louder with low-power amplifiers.

 

R

Yes I am aware of this combination inherint weakness, but I assume all audio systems have their trade offs, am I correct in assuming this? Which is why I use subwoofers and DSP to offset 'some' of those weakness you have mention. Is it appropriate to take advantage of these tools to arrived at a very satisfying sound that keeps in your chair thoughout the night experiencing all the musical enjoyment that recoded music is capable of delivering? (A terrible long sentence). Sam

C.A.P. Pipeline, windows pro 10 > Roon > SOtM USB > Keces power supply > HDplex power supply > 4x2 HD Mini DSP > Ayre DSD QB-9 > Naim CDX > ModWright 9 S.E. Preamp > A21 Parasound Amplifier > Magnepan .7 > Augie's Dipole sub, ML sub, DIY sub > Dedicated room with acoustical treatment.

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I would add that *any* consumer-friendly horn system is going to be a hybrid system, with a horn-loaded cone driver or a powered subwoofer to handle the low frequencies. A "true" low-frequency horn would take up half the house. ;-)

 

get a bigger house - the part where most of the horn is located just needs to be a heated warehouse

 

then you can use those tiny, low power SET amps...

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Yes I am aware of this combination inherint weakness, but I assume all audio systems have their trade offs, am I correct in assuming this? Which is why I use subwoofers and DSP to offset 'some' of those weakness you have mention. Is it appropriate to take advantage of these tools to arrived at a very satisfying sound that keeps in your chair thoughout the night experiencing all the musical enjoyment that recoded music is capable of delivering? (A terrible long sentence). Sam

 

Yep, had to read it a couple of times. :)

 

I hope you are not taking my comments on single driver loudspeakers personally.

I have a bit of first hand experience and believe that it may help others.

I owned a pair of largish ported standmounts with Diatone P610 and a pair of semi-omni single drivers before that; next came some Consonance horns which I tried to improve with some modifications.

The experiment with horns was just too expensive for my budget and I returned to using more conventional speakers.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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Yes I am aware of this combination inherint weakness, but I assume all audio systems have their trade offs, am I correct in assuming this? Which is why I use subwoofers and DSP to offset 'some' of those weakness you have mention. Is it appropriate to take advantage of these tools to arrived at a very satisfying sound that keeps in your chair thoughout the night experiencing all the musical enjoyment that recoded music is capable of delivering? (A terrible long sentence). Sam

 

Avant-Garde Trios, at $60K plus a pair, use powered subs for the low end. So I don't think you have anything to feel bad about. ;-)

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