$10,000/ft Cable burn-in ! Wasted $500 a watt on an amp! Why the war?

[Rt66indierock]

Well I don't know about the CES data, that throws a wide net. How much of that is big TV's and soundbars? As for the high end market I see a ton of great designers opening up boutique internet direct firms like Tekton, SVS, Hsu, etc. Good for them good for the consumer. I see the local dealers consolidating into installers without showrooms serving the high end. More tailored service and lower overhead. I see Harmon being acquired by Samsung which is pretty exciting for the guys at Harman. Did you know that samsung was pursuing their own high end audio products before the acquisition? As for cables and the margins it doesn't matter. These companies have 30 day return policies and crappy cable companies won't survive on returns. I like that it give the consumers more choice and puts a blow torch to the butt of the vendors to innovate.

The flip side of the coin is the dumbing down of the high end because consumers care more about convenience than SQ. I LOVE my JBL Studio 230 speakers but they sell low end ear buds too. I can't blame them for that. you gotta take what the market gives you some time. What I don't understand is in 2000 the best headphones cost like $600 and today it is more like $6000. How do you explain that? I guess demand for expensive headphones is going up, could that impact the demand for stereos?

 

My CES data adjusts Home Theater out. The sources you cite about installers don’t deal with high end audio. Samsung has had high end audio components for at least 20 years so yes I was aware of their high end activities but the volumes will not impact the profits of their consumer electronics division. Harman was acquired for auto expertise. They are a Tier 1 suppler to the auto industry. As for what you wrote about cables in this thread I can only quote Wolfgang Pauli “What you said was so confused that one could not tell whether it was nonsense or not.” I would answer your headphone question this way in general high cost to develop, high parts cost and low volume means high prices.

 

I’ve haven’t heard Tekton, SVS and Hsu stuff but the description boutique means to me low volume. Tekton for example would have sell about one pair of everything except the 1812’s a week to have revenue of about $1 million on about 800 units. I will write more about this but the two men who were the most excited at RMAF 2016 were discussing designing products with initial orders of 10,000 units.

[mansr]

As for what you wrote about cables in this thread I can only quote Wolfgang Pauli “What you said was so confused that one could not tell whether it was nonsense or not.”

 

Is that a (small) step up from "not even wrong"?

[Ralf11]

too bad the OP cheaped out on his cables

 

it would all be different if he'd used $30,000 per foot cables

 

then he could have used a nice little $400 amp which produces a full Watt of power too

 

 

oh and BTW I went to the same engineering college with Pauli's nephew - he was a real oddball

[witchdoctor]

My CES data adjusts Home Theater out. The sources you cite about installers don’t deal with high end audio. Samsung has had high end audio components for at least 20 years so yes I was aware of their high end activities but the volumes will not impact the profits of their consumer electronics division. Harman was acquired for auto expertise. They are a Tier 1 suppler to the auto industry. As for what you wrote about cables in this thread I can only quote Wolfgang Pauli “What you said was so confused that one could not tell whether it was nonsense or not.” I would answer your headphone question this way in general high cost to develop, high parts cost and low volume means high prices.

 

I’ve haven’t heard Tekton, SVS and Hsu stuff but the description boutique means to me low volume. Tekton for example would have sell about one pair of everything except the 1812’s a week to have revenue of about $1 million on about 800 units. I will write more about this but the two men who were the most excited at RMAF 2016 were discussing designing products with initial orders of 10,000 units.

 

OK, so it appears the "high end" is migrating from retail stores to internet direct. I think the internet direct model gives consumers more choice and vendors lower overhead. Home installations are not Magnolia or Best Buy, so we may disagree on the definition of "high end". I thought my cable analogy was clear, if a cable can improve SQ of a $10,000 system by 10% that is $1000 worth of value. I am not saying that the cable should be priced at that level because of the competition. But i have no problem spending $ on any component that provides better SQ at a reasonable value whether it's hardware, software, or rearranging my furniture

[sjay]

Because as stated earlier, I buy all my cables second hand so my money goes a LOT further

 

I think your formula is flawed. Think of a formula based on value instead of price.

 

The % improvement of SQ as a % of the cost of your entire system- cost of cable = value

 

So if my system cost $10K and a component (lets say a cable) improves SQ by 10% the value of that component would be 10% of $10K or $1000.

 

If a power cord cost $500 and I got the equivalent of a $1000 upgrade that would represent good value to me personally, YMMV.

[Rt66indierock]

“What you said was so confused that one could not tell whether it was nonsense or not.”

 

Is that a (small) step up from "not even wrong"?

 

Same idea but easier to work in a conversation.

[Rt66indierock]

oh and BTW I went to the same engineering college with Pauli's nephew - he was a real oddball

 

The stories I could tell you ....

[VenturaRV]

Consumerism and narcissism are inseparable. Why don't people get this?

I agree.

But when (and it is the more usual case) people you work with, even you live with, when your not present don't talk about you in a very friendly terms (and you must accept this as an unavoidable issue of daily life), a little bit of narcisism in your beloved audio equipment well worths a little (well, no so little) bit of cosumism. [emoji4]

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

[Ralf11]

The stories I could tell you ....

 

you know Myron?

[Samuel T Cogley]

I agree.

But when (and it is the more usual case) people you work with, even you live with, when your not present don't talk about you in a very friendly terms (and you must accept this as an unavoidable issue of daily life), a little bit of narcisism in your beloved audio equipment well worths a little (well, no so little) bit of cosumism. [emoji4]

 

Maybe I was beating around the bush? How about this:

 

consumerism = narcissism

 

And getting back to the tired cable "debate", people who dismiss science in favor of their personal beliefs are narcissists by definition.

[VenturaRV]

Maybe I was beating around the bush? How about this:

 

consumerism = narcissism

 

And getting back to the tired cable "debate", people who dismiss science in favor of their personal beliefs are narcissists by definition.

Again, I agree with you.

 

 

My not too well written comment had mostly a humorous intention.

 

I've heard quite a lot of absud assesments concerning equipment cables, but not HEARD the "tremendous" differences others say they do.

 

The 50% "rule" is a bad taste joke, to say the least.

 

All what one needs is good interconnects with good plugs, and a good (about 99,9 OFC, no more) and enough caliber speaker cable to guarantee the current from the amp not to be partially lost.Maybe one can use isolators for the mains plugs ONLY if the mains, whatever the reasons, induces AUDIBLE noise; if not, it's pointless and a waste of money.

 

Personally, I use Van den Hull cable and WVT plugs for interconnects, Monster for Toslink and dedicated propietary Luxman optical cable for CD spinner to DAC, and again good caliber multibrin Monster for speakers. My system is in the $75,000 price point, and I haven't spend, by no means, $7,500 in cable stuff.

 

All that said, if any one feels happy spending half his budget ( no matter how big or humble) in cable gear and not in components, well it is his will and I won't be the one trying to persuade him don't do such a crazy thing (mostly because he will NEVER let himself to be persuaded).

 

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[VenturaRV]

Speaking about the "50% rule"... Let's suppose one guy has a total budget to spend in audio gear up to $3,000. OK. According to the half/half criterion, it will be a smart action to spend $1,500 in, say, a CD player + an integrated amp + a pair of loudspeakers for day listening + a pair of stands for them + a pair of headphones for late night listening sessios. The remining 1,500 bucks will go for isolate properly the components

 

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[VenturaRV]

Speaking about the "50% rule"...

 

Let's suppose one guy has a total budget to spend in audio gear up to $3,000. OK. According to the half/half criterion, it will be a smart action to spend $1,500 in, say, a CD player + an integrated amp + a pair of loudspeakers for day listening + a pair of stands for them + a pair of headphones for late night listening sessios. The remaining 1,500 bucks will go for: isolate properly the components from mains current pollution + mains cords and plugs + very good to excellent interconnect cable and plugs for sending the signal from the CD machine to the amp + very good to excellent cable for sending the signal from amp to speakers + change the original headphones' cable and plug for new and better ones + 12 isolating spikes (6 for decoupling speakers from stands -filled with special sand if possible- and 6 for decoupling stands from floor) + 3 spikes to decouple CD player from whatever the surface it's settled + 3 spikes to decouple the integrated (transistors bolted to the heat sink are very sensitive to minimal vibrations!) from whatever the surface it's put upon + (last and determining sound quality factor) proper cable elevators... Great!! The audio Nirvana has been achieved!!! [emoji28]

 

Are some one so naìve to believe be truth all the absurd above said? I do resist myself to admit it possible...

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

 

Speaking about the "50% rule"... Let's suppose one guy has a total budget to spend in audio gear up to $3,000. OK. According to the half/half criterion, it will be a smart action to spend $1,500 in, say, a CD player + an integrated amp + a pair of loudspeakers for day listening + a pair of stands for them + a pair of headphones for late night listening sessios. The remining 1,500 bucks will go for isolate properly the components

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

 

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

[gmgraves]

Don't listen to anything but the music, let your ears and brain make the decision, not popular or unpopular opinions.

 

That is my advice, whilst being serious about this topic.

Opinions are like noses, Everybody's got one. Rely on facts. Seek them out, strive to understand them, and apply them to whatever endeavor you are involved in. Most opinions are formed in a vacuum by people who don't have all the facts. Don't be one of those!

[Rt66indierock]

you know Myron?

 

Nope just some very oddball people. Nice except for some quirks.

[witchdoctor]

Speaking about the "50% rule"... Let's suppose one guy has a total budget to spend in audio gear up to $3,000. OK. According to the half/half criterion, it will be a smart action to spend $1,500 in, say, a CD player + an integrated amp + a pair of loudspeakers for day listening + a pair of stands for them + a pair of headphones for late night listening sessios. The remining 1,500 bucks will go for isolate properly the components

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

 

That's interesting. There is a process of isolation using inner tubes I haven't tried but some people seem to like for very little $$$. Then I see isolation devices for $$$$. Hard to say what the proper budget should be but it makes a huge difference in SQ.

[witchdoctor]

Opinions are like noses, Everybody's got one. Rely on facts. Seek them out, strive to understand them, and apply them to whatever endeavor you are involved in. Most opinions are formed in a vacuum by people who don't have all the facts. Don't be one of those!

 

Facts? In this hobby? There are too many conflicting facts to count! I can find a "fact" to justify pretty much any purchase available.

[mansr]

Facts? In this hobby? There are too many conflicting facts to count! I can find a "fact" to justify pretty much any purchase available.

Of two conflicting "facts," at least one must be wrong.

[Speedskater]

"facts"? Why audiophiles lived in a 'post fact'/'post truth' world long before it was a political buzz word.

[VenturaRV]

That's interesting. There is a process of isolation using inner tubes I haven't tried but some people seem to like for very little $$$. Then I see isolation devices for $$$$. Hard to say what the proper budget should be but it makes a huge difference in SQ.

My apologies.

You're actually commenting a half (about) my post on the topic.

This is my fault. By accident, I touched the "send" icon while I was laboriously writing my deep thoughts [emoji17] on the subject.

You can read (and understand its real intention) the entire post next an after the first and broken attempt on the discussion, now in its full glory. [emoji4]

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

[gmgraves]

Facts? In this hobby? There are too many conflicting facts to count! I can find a "fact" to justify pretty much any purchase available.

 

No, there is fact and myth, not two conflicting facts. As has been pointed out already, if there are two conflicting facts, one of them is wrong.

[mordante]

No, there is fact and myth, not two conflicting facts. As has been pointed out already, if there are two conflicting facts, one of them is wrong.

 

Why worry about stuff like right or wrong in audio? It is a subjective hobby. I do not deny that measurements can help. Like measuring room acoustics and treating a room accordingly. There are some other measurements that might help as well. However when someone buys cables, amps etc there are not rights or wrongs as long as he enjoys his hobby all is fine.

 

I have spoken with someone who's USB cable is more expensive then his DAC. He tested a more expensive DAC with cheaper cables. But he preferred it the other way around. While I do spend money on cables I wouldn't go that far I think. But who knows. That Ansuz power cable sound pretty good.

[semente]

Facts? In this hobby? There are too many conflicting facts to count! I can find a "fact" to justify pretty much any purchase available.

 

Then you must learn how to pick your sources.

 

R

[semente]

Why worry about stuff like right or wrong in audio? It is a subjective hobby. I do not deny that measurements can help. Like measuring room acoustics and treating a room accordingly. There are some other measurements that might help as well. However when someone buys cables, amps etc there are not rights or wrongs as long as he enjoys his hobby all is fine.

 

I have spoken with someone who's USB cable is more expensive then his DAC. He tested a more expensive DAC with cheaper cables. But he preferred it the other way around. While I do spend money on cables I wouldn't go that far I think. But who knows. That Ansuz power cable sound pretty good.

I am looking to get the most accurate possible reproduction of the signal that I can afford.

 

I want facts.

 

Box swapping gives me no pleasure and is a waste of money.

 

R

[mordante]

I am looking to get the most accurate possible reproduction of the signal that I can afford.

 

I want facts.

 

Box swapping gives me no pleasure and is a waste of money.

 

R

 

And that's fine. But not a superior way towards any other approach of the hobby.