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vmartell22

$10,000/ft Cable burn-in ! Wasted $500 a watt on an amp! Why the war?

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Have been wondering about this - I have my own ideas and once in a while I chime in - and cannot deny those threads are incredibly fun, at least to me!

 

But, have been thinking about the issue - why the war? it tends to end nasty... wonder if this thread makes any sense but I am extremely curious for your take...

 

The way I see it

 

1.- Let's say you are not rich - you can put together a few shekels and know where to spend them - you are probably an skeptic and know what matters; probably even a technical person, an engineer or a scientist. You know why you picked what you picked and the science behind it - you have a good system and you know it probably performs as well or better than systems 10X the price... and know full well that a substantial part of that 10X is things like cables and other tweaks... and you laugh!

 

2.- Or maybe you have been lucky and you have more than a few shekels and your system - you are not a technical person, but you get informed on your hobby - Absolute Sound, Stereophile, other audiophile magazines - you want the best for your system, every little component, so cables and power conditioning get lavish treatment - because you can afford it. Not only that - you can hear the effects of those changes on your system and are happy to spend the money. You look at those people with systems with $1500 (or $300 ) dollars speakers, dacs, etc. participating in audiophile forums - and you laugh!

 

To each its own, right? Problem is that we are human - and everything factors in! Dunning–Kruger effect, hindsight bias etc.

 

1.- If you are a technical person - you believe that makes you special! - you think - they may be richer, but you are smarter - you don't need to spend 10x, 20x or more to have a high performing system

 

2.- If you are have means, due to your success - you believe that makes you special! You think, I have the means to get the best an the ears to appreciate it

 

 

So when $10,000 a foot cables with a requirement of 20,000 hours burn-in get attacked and ridiculed, those who have them feel attacked at their core - and when the attacks and returned with reference to lesser equipment and hearing, the same happens to the other side!

 

Why the war? My guess is a matter of self validation - you are not only defending your system and ideas about audio - you are validating your life choices and current situation!

 

 

Of course, there are in-betweens - I have seen dense technical explanations of why direction in cables matter - so this is a gross generalization...

 

Or maybe all I wrote is stupid - at least it was fun thinking about it!

 

v

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Oh good another cable thread.

 

Hey Chris how about a cable only section? Then we can go about our business without ever having to view the endless pro and con debate which has no good answer.


In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law

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Oh good another cable thread.

.

 

Not my intention! more like an attempt at a meaningful and possibly interesting discussion on why "oh good, another cable thread" is a thing! Are the archetypes in my post accurate? do they make sense? Are they a good basis to so we can begin to to understand how those threads inevitably turn ugly?

 

Does it matter? :D

 

v

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I buy all my cables second hand, all Kimber, Select level now days, all sounded wonderful on day 1 of install, must be burned in already ;)

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I have the knowledge to tell good advice from bad. However, the sheer amount of bullshit out there still makes a difficult task to find the bits of credible information I need to make a sound decision. The incredibly condescending attitude often exhibited by "believers" can also be quite frustrating. Apart from that, the nonsense can be rather amusing.

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I have the knowledge to tell good advice from bad. However, the sheer amount of bullshit out there still makes a difficult task to find the bits of credible information I need to make a sound decision. The incredibly condescending attitude often exhibited by "believers" can also be quite frustrating. Apart from that, the nonsense can be rather amusing.

 

Don't listen to anything but the music, let your ears and brain make the decision, not popular or unpopular opinions.

 

That is my advice, whilst being serious about this topic.

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Oh good another cable thread.

 

Hey Chris how about a cable only section? Then we can go about our business without ever having to view the endless pro and con debate which has no good answer.

 

Better idea, why don't you just move on to another thread?

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I have the knowledge to tell good advice from bad. However, the sheer amount of bullshit out there still makes a difficult task to find the bits of credible information I need to make a sound decision. The incredibly condescending attitude often exhibited by "believers" can also be quite frustrating. Apart from that, the nonsense can be rather amusing.

 

I don't think any one can say what is good and bad for anyone but themselves. This hobby is about preferences, not absolutes.

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If an audiophile writes that they enjoy having $10,000 cables in their system, well that great. End of story.

 

Only when audiophiles write that these $10,000 cables sound better than other cables do we start to have problems.

 

And even bigger problems when they start to make technical claims.

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If an audiophile writes that they enjoy having $10,000 cables in their system, well that great. End of story.

 

Only when audiophiles write that these $10,000 cables sound better than other cables do we start to have problems.

 

And even bigger problems when they start to make technical claims.

I have seen that happening many times - I myself feel the need to chime in - FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS:

 

Should we brake up the boards even further? Should there be a subjective sub-board and an objective sub-board?

How did we come to this? Is the industry somehow at fault?

 

My guess is that anyone should feel safe discussion anything withe like-minded minds - if subjectivists feel the need to freely discuss the differences between two kinds of $100,000 a foot cables - should there be a place where they are free to do so?

 

For me - I ALWAYS feel the need to chime in - I often abstain, but not always...

 

v

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It's mainly the value proposition for me, as in, there is a finite amount of money a cable should ever cost to produce, relative to what it could ever deliver in performance.

 

I'm ok up to around £100 a cable... after that the value proposition falls away quickly, which is why I usually make my own cables from good parts.

 

A cable that costs more than a good DAC is IMO impossible to justify as good value.


Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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If an audiophile writes that they enjoy having $10,000 cables in their system, well that great. End of story.

 

Only when audiophiles write that these $10,000 cables sound better than other cables do we start to have problems.

 

And even bigger problems when they start to make technical claims.

 

In my system a $200 digital interconnect wiped the floor with a $1500 one to my astonishment.

 

 

 

Only when audiophiles write that these $10,000 cables sound better than other cables do we start to have problems.

 

You should have stated that is when YOU start to have problems.

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It's mainly the value proposition for me, as in, there is a finite amount of money a cable should ever cost to produce, relative to what it could ever deliver in performance.

 

I'm ok up to around £100 a cable... after that the value proposition falls away quickly, which is why I usually make my own cables from good parts.

 

A cable that costs more than a good DAC is IMO impossible to justify as good value.

 

That just tells me you haven't auditioned many excellent cables. You don't judge a product by its price, you judge it by its value. For example my Marantz 7702 was $2000 retail. Its big brother the 8802 was $4000. Would a $1000 power cable be an insane purchase if when connected to the 7702 the combo blew the 8802 out of the water that used a stock power cord?

The general rule is a power cord that costs 50% of the amount of the component is just dumb. But given the example above would it still be a bad investment?

 

I know we both use active speakers. have you tested a kilobuck power cord on them just for fun yet? I have not owned a Revel sub or ATC so maybe the results would be different but my Paradigm Active 40's and my Sunfire sub stand up and saluted the first time I nurtured them properly. I see you all ready have dedicated mains so thats good.

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No.. it tells you that I know how to judge a value proposition, relative to how I perceive value... nothing else.

 

 

That just tells me you haven't auditioned many excellent cables. You don't judge a product by its price, you judge it by its value. For example my Marantz 7702 was $2000 retail. Its big brother the 8802 was $4000. Would a $1000 power cable be an insane purchase if when connected to the 7702 the combo blew the 8802 out of the water that used a stock power cord?

The general rule is a power cord that costs 50% of the amount of the component is just dumb. But given the example above would it still be a bad investment?


Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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I don't think any one can say what is good and bad for anyone but themselves. This hobby is about preferences, not absolutes.

 

Bad advice is, for example, telling someone with a limited budget that he absolutely must spend a significant portion of it on cable elevators or some other "tweak" with at best minuscule effects.

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+1

 

Exactly... if you really must have diamond encrusted wires, do that bit last, because no amount of diamond encrusted wire will ever make crap equipment sound fabulous.

 

(my system is wired in complete overkill heavy gauge very pure silver that would have cost many thousands... but I was lucky to get a reel of the stuff for an amazing price and I made all the cable runs myself = whole audio part of the system including A/V and surrounds wired for about £700. I used Mark Grant for the mains cables, that came to about £850 for the whole system. I wouldn't recommend anyone spend that kind of money until they have great components - and even so there is no reason why cheaper cables wouldn't sound as good or better - and if your're happy to spend big bucks on mains cables at least get your home mains supply right first)

 

Bad advice is, for example, telling someone with a limited budget that he absolutely must spend a significant portion of it on cable elevators or some other "tweak" with at best minuscule effects.

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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It's common sense for people with excellent hearing that are also audiophiles understand that cables are considered an essential component of any system.

 

The Chain is Only as Strong as its Weakest Link.

 

Drop the Mic.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

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Better idea, why don't you just move on to another thread?

 

 

OP:

 

(QUOTE/EDIT) But, have been thinking about the issue - why the war? it tends to end nasty... wonder if this thread makes any sense but I am extremely curious for your take... (QUOTE)

 

Thereby, the aptly named witchdoctor validates OPs point.


In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law

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Bad advice is, for example, telling someone with a limited budget that he absolutely must spend a significant portion of it on cable elevators or some other "tweak" with at best minuscule effects.

 

I have 0 experience with cable elevators so cannot say. What has your experience been?

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No.. it tells you that I know how to judge a value proposition, relative to how I perceive value... nothing else.

 

OK, so have you auditioned a variety of power cables on your active speakers yet? Results so far?

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OP:

 

(QUOTE/EDIT) But, have been thinking about the issue - why the war? it tends to end nasty... wonder if this thread makes any sense but I am extremely curious for your take... (QUOTE)

 

Thereby, the aptly named witchdoctor validates OPs point.

 

Watch out or else I get my voodoo doll

[video=youtube;85i5CpyBv-Q]

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It's common sense for people with excellent hearing that are also audiophiles understand that cables are considered an essential component of any system.

 

The Chain is Only as Strong as its Weakest Link.

 

Drop the Mic.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

I love it when a $150 cable improves my $30,000 system by 10%+ (which is what happened when I switched digital cables to a CHEAPER one!).

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I am the OP - first of all, some funny comments, so HA HA :D

That said - this thread has evolved into a template for what I described in my original post! - Someone mentioned a $1000 dollar power cable and felt it was an advantage to be able to afford it and audition it; someone else claimed superior hearing and of the course the scientists threw around the word voodoo

 

Hmm - from my previous posts you probably know which side I am on - I am not claiming to not care - but for the purpose of this thread I am trying very hard to not argue my point of view, but to concentrate in the why of the state of things and if we all could ever get along...

 

I have started thinking on shifting the majority of the blame on the industry - someone also mentioned the 50% of price in cables and interconnects rule - something will break inside of me if I find out that cables and interconnects have the highest margins, as opposed to devices.... (that sounded not neutral, so will dial it down...)

 

But I am thinking that the industry encourages the one side that will spend more money (duh!) and the other side balks at the tactics and strategies the industry uses... in a sense - is the objectivist side somehow trying to defend the other side? Does the anger comes from the subjectivists not realizing they are being manipulated by the industry?

 

v

Edited by vmartell22

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This is a review of the Virtual Dynamics Nite series including my reference power cord. I have them on my frony 3 active speakers, my PC and my pre/pro. I think I got a discount for ordering so many.

 

http://stereotimes.com/post/virtual-dynamics-%E2%80%9Cnite%E2%80%9D-series-cables

 

The series above that is the Master Series, I was using the $1500 Master Series Digital IC when another cables vendor challenged me to a throw down with his $150 or so cable. I did it to be polite but much to my surprise his cable was better (YMMV).

 

http://www.stereotimes.com/cable031105.shtml

 

I use Virtual Dynamics less expensive power cords on my sub and other surround active speakers.

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