What To Do When New Information Changes Your Existing Systems Requirements?

[accwai]

Thanks again for your thoughts and continued input on this. Your efforts on my behalf are immensely appreciated. I owned an Atma-Sphere S-30 for about three years, and also made use a pair of M60's that a friend asked me to store/use while he was in Australia for a year. I am a big fan of Ralph's amps, and I do not believe any tube design can equal the impact and clarity of their bass performance. They truly sound like pure music. They are also built like tanks, and have incredible support from Ralph and his team. The one, unfortunate, problem for me is that they simply don't offer the golden midrange of a good SET. You can improve things a bit with quads of VERY expensive NOS 6SN7 tubes, but it still doesn't quite get me there.Otherwise, I would be signing up for a pair of M-60's tomorrow.

 

I'm a little confused what you're trying to achieve.

 

So if I get this correctly: You bought a pair of Coincident Total Victory II and was happy driving it with your Art Audio Carissa Signature. Then you started reading forum posts that says Total Victory II really needs 50W. You went to CES and heard the speakers driven by Atmasphere M-60. They sounded much better than your combo, but doesn't have a golden midrange. So in what way is the Atmasphere combo better?

 

On the efficiency side, the Coincident website says the Total Victory II is 97db/m/W. Apparently it was clarified later that it's actually 94db. These numbers don't make much sense. To put things into perceptive, a pair of 98db speakers driven by 7W per side in a ~15'x25' room when cranked up is *way* louder than I can tolerate. Heck, it's louder than my wife can tolerate upstairs 94db driven by 845 should be the same thing, so you shouldn't be worried about power at all. How big a room do you have? And are you sure the speakers are working properly? Have you discussed the situation with Israel Blume? What does he say?

 

Anyway, looks like you have set yourself up with quite a dilemma. Personally, SET is about simplicity. Total Victory II being a 4 way system is the opposite of simplicity. You probably have deeper incompatibility than just matching of power and efficiency. In the end, unless you're willing to spend big dollars on big SET (GM-70 and up) to try and brute force your way through, you probably have to choose one way and abandon the other. But before that, might not be a bad idea to do a lot of listening and get to know your own preferences better.

 

Just a bunch of random thoughts. Don't know if it would help.

[semente]

The Klipschorn is 50% efficient. That means that 2 electrical Watts in yields 1 Acoustic Watt out. When I was a teen, a buddy of mine's dad had a Klipschorn. One afternoon, we disconnected the speaker from his Dad's 12 Watt Eico integrated amplifier, and connected it through a cable we made-up to my Realistic "Hi-Fiver", a 5 transistor radio from Radio Shack. It was powered by one of those ubiquitous 9-volt batteries. When we turned it on, we were surprised that it played so loud that my buddy's mom yelled down the steps for us turn the hifi down! I doubt that transistor radio produced 200 mW of power. I think a Klipschorn will work just fine on 15 Watts thank you, and in fact, will probably be happy with a 3-Watt WE300 SET! Also I briefly had a pair of A7s as a teen, and my Knight 18 Watt amps drove them much louder than I could stand to listen to them!

 

 

The Audio Note AZ1 is a direct radiating box and those speakers were designed for SETs

 

No argument there, but a very light-weight Lotus 7 will run like stink on the track. I know, I used own one... Efficient speakers are like lightweight race cars. Small engines (amplifiers) can run them very satisfactorily.

SETs have very high output impedance and even if they can drive a transducer there's a huge chance that the speaker load will make a mess of the combined frequency response.

An example:

 

 

Yamamoto A-08, frequency response at 1V into (from top to bottom at 2kHz): simulated loudspeaker load, 8, 4, 2 ohms (1dB/vertical div., right channel dashed).

Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/yamamoto-08-power-amplifier-measurements

 

R

[semente]

If I were you I would give less credit to Salvatore or manufacturer specs and face the facts: it's obvious that your amplifier is not only massively underpowered but it's also not adequate for the use you are giving it.

@YashN is correct when he says that it's not just a matter of power / sensitivity but also of current / load (and CEMF).

As I've written in another topic, I think that flea powered SETs should be used with sensitive speakers >100dB (multi-way horns) and preferably they should be run band-passed in an active configuration as they have quite high output impedance.

 

As for Zu speakers, they're one of the few that JA at Stereophile classified as rubbish, something almost unknown of in a day and age when magazines never publish negative criticism, which is something!

 

Your memories of Stereophile bashing Zu are from many years ago. Just earlier this year they got a "highly recommended". Zu has come a very long way.

 

Zu Audio Soul Supreme loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

JC

 

I don't care about the review, just look at the measurements.

And my comments were specifically directed at the Soul Supreme.

Of course you must know what the measurements mean because JA will try to be as politically correct as he possibly can.

After all, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

R

[4est]

I do not dispute your premise, but the amp you are showing the graph of is damaged if you read the article.

SETs have very high output impedance and even if they can drive a transducer there's a huge chance that the speaker load will make a mess of the combined frequency response.

An example:

 

 

Yamamoto A-08, frequency response at 1V into (from top to bottom at 2kHz): simulated loudspeaker load, 8, 4, 2 ohms (1dB/vertical div., right channel dashed).

Read more at Yamamoto A-08 power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

R

[TubeLover]

I'm a little confused what you're trying to achieve. So if I get this correctly: You bought a pair of Coincident Total Victory II and was happy driving it with your Art Audio Carissa Signature.

On the efficiency side, the Coincident website says the Total Victory II is 97db/m/W. Apparently it was clarified later that it's actually 94db. These numbers don't make much sense. To put things into perceptive, a pair of 98db speakers driven by 7W per side in a ~15'x25' room when cranked up is *way* louder than I can tolerate. Heck, it's louder than my wife can tolerate upstairs 94db driven by 845 should be the same thing, so you shouldn't be worried about power at all. How big a room do you have? And are you sure the speakers are working properly? Have you discussed the situation with Israel Blume? What does he say?

 

Anyway, looks like you have set yourself up with quite a dilemma. Personally, SET is about simplicity. Total Victory II being a 4 way system is the opposite of simplicity. You probably have deeper incompatibility than just matching of power and efficiency. In the end, unless you're willing to spend big dollars on big SET (GM-70 and up) to try and brute force your way through, you probably have to choose one way and abandon the other. But before that, might not be a bad idea to do a lot of listening and get to know your own preferences better.

Just a bunch of random thoughts. Don't know if it would help.

 

I appreciate your toughts, but let me clarify things a bit. I can see why you might see it that way, but that's not the accurate version of the story. I really love the Total Victory II's, and the Carissa Signature. I was "happy" with them over the past year, but it sometimes seemed as though something was holding the speakers back, as if they were unable to deliver their optimum performance. When I looked into it further, I discovered that there had been a number of people who realized that the Total Victory II's were not as sensitive as claimed. The 94db number has not, to my knowledge, been verified. No one seems to be aware of exactly how sensitive they are. After reading numerous comments from people who felt that upgrading power to 50-60wpc made a big difference. I also communicated with Ralp Karsten who had used his M-60's to power the Total Victory II's at a number of CES shows, supporting Coincident. He informed me that 50 wpc was what was needed for the speakers to really open up and perform. An audiophile friend then brought his 60wpc monoblocks over to my home to allow me to verify it personally, and it was clear that the speakers performance improved with the additional power. It was not about volume, but the quality of the sound. The Carissa Signature can certainly drive the TVII's with plenty of volume, but then again, volume is only one element of sound.

 

I do plan to reach out to Israel Blume about the situation and get his thoughts. However, he now demoes his Total Victory models with his 8wpc channel Frankenstein monos (a very fine amplifier within it's range) so if I had to guess, the music he is using for the demo's is likely not covering the full range I myself listen to.

 

JC

[semente]

I do not dispute your premise, but the amp you are showing the graph of is damaged if you read the article.

 

Here's another one:

 

 

Wavelength Cardinal XS, frequency response at (from top to bottom): 2W into 4 ohms, 4 ohm tap; 1W into 8 ohms, 8 ohm tap; 2W into simulated speaker load, 4 ohm tap (1dB/vertical div.).

Read more at Wavelength Audio Cardinal XS monoblock amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

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And another one:

 

 

Cayin A-300B, volume control at maximum, 8 ohm tap, zero negative feedback, frequency response at 2.83V into (from top to bottom at 2kHz): simulated loudspeaker load, 16, 8, 4, 2 ohms (1dB/vertical div.).

Read more at Cayin A-300B integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

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One more...surely they're not all broken (unless you mean by design):

 

Air Tight ATM-211, frequency response at (from top to bottom at 2kHz): 2.83V into dummy loudspeaker load, 1W into 8 ohms, 2W into 4 ohms, 4W into 2 ohms (0.5dB/vertical div.).

Read more at Air Tight ATM-211 tube monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

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If you look closely you can see that the combined frequency response of speaker and amplifier mimics the characteristics of the load:

 

 

Modified Kantor speaker simulator, electrical impedance (solid) and phase (dashed) (2 ohms/vertical div.).

Read more at Real-Life Measurements Page 2 | Stereophile.com

 

 

 

 

You can learn a bit about this in these writings:

 

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/810/

 

and

 

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/707heavy/

 

 

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[YashN]

Thanks again for your thoughts and continued input on this. Your efforts on my behalf are immensely appreciated. I owned an Atma-Sphere S-30 for about three years, and also made use a pair of M60's that a friend asked me to store/use while he was in Australia for a year.

 

No prob, it's as much a learning experience for me to delve in this. I still wonder if the Coincident tube amps are a good match for the T.V. II. I think yesterday I saw a few people mentioning around 16W amps playing well with the T.V. II, so it would be interesting to know what are the differences between them and your SET amp.

 

Any thoughts on dedicated another amp just to the lower frequencies with multi-amping, and letting the existing SET shine its light on the mid-range?

 

So, have you read Dr. Gizmo's articles?

 

If not, that would be a great thing to do. Look for metagizmo.

[accwai]

I appreciate your toughts, but let me clarify things a bit. I can see why you might see it that way, but that's not the accurate version of the story. I really love the Total Victory II's, and the Carissa Signature. I was "happy" with them over the past year, but it sometimes seemed as though something was holding the speakers back, as if they were unable to deliver their optimum performance. [...] An audiophile friend then brought his 60wpc monoblocks over to my home to allow me to verify it personally, and it was clear that the speakers performance improved with the additional power. It was not about volume, but the quality of the sound.

 

If it wasn't about volume, is it possible that the bigger amps that you've tried are bringing quality other than just more wattage?

 

What kind of improvement do you get with the 60w mono? More bass? More bass control and articulation? More macro dynamics? Finer micro dynamics? More vivid tones? Finer micro tonal shading? More complete harmonic decay? More precise timing? More exact ebb and flow of energy? More "your are there" or "they are here" type of presence? I would assume you're not completely taken by your friend's mono. Otherwise, you could just get the same and be done with it

 

And while we're at it, how much work have you done on support platform, power distribution and grounding? SET designs being rather simple tends to be fairly sensitive to these things. If your goal is optimum performance from your system, you probably can't avoid touching on these areas eventually.

 

I do plan to reach out to Israel Blume about the situation and get his thoughts. However, he now demoes his Total Victory models with his 8wpc channel Frankenstein monos (a very fine amplifier within it's range) so if I had to guess, the music he is using for the demo's is likely not covering the full range I myself listen to.

 

Full range as in full frequency range? Or full range of your musical taste?

 

By the way, the Coincident website says "The crossover in the TV V is much simpler than the TV II since the speaker is a 3 way design instead of a 4 way." Could that also be a factor? Or is he playing older TV models with Frankenstein as well?

 

[...] I still wonder if the Coincident tube amps are a good match for the T.V. II.

 

The Frankenstein would be a very useful data point. If that works, it would answer the more appropriate watt vs more watts question.

[mrvco]

What are the 60W monoblocks that your 'audiophile friend' brought over and why aren't they in the running?