New ISP, Network Problems With Audio Device, Help needed

[Cebolla]

Louise

 

Could the 'degradation' just simply be a subtler manifestation of the drop outs you mentioned earlier?

[Yorkie]

Something would have to decode it to PCM, do whatever processing, and then re-compress it to FLAC. Any direct alteration of the FLAC data would almost certainly end up sounding terrible, not just a slight degradation.

 

The network was certainly sending FLAC to the AVR, and maybe the receipt of the FLAC stream is what the AVR reports. But after that point, is there a different path for FLAC received by cable and that received by wi-fi? Given the wi-fi's close association with AirPlay, I would imagine this is possible.

 

 

Louise

 

Could the 'degradation' just simply be a subtler manifestation of the drop outs you mentioned earlier?

 

It didn't sound like buffering, which tends to be discrete. It is a very subtle difference, perhaps best described as cutting half way between the quality of Spotify's highest quality stream and FLAC. Spotify+ or FLAC- !

[mansr]

The network was certainly sending FLAC to the AVR, and maybe the receipt of the FLAC stream is what the AVR reports. But after that point, is there a different path for FLAC received by cable and that received by wi-fi? Given the wi-fi's close association with AirPlay, I would imagine this is possible.

 

I highly doubt the AVR would degrade the audio on its own. AirPlay isn't tied to wifi, so that shouldn't be a factor.

[Cebolla]

Entirely agree with Mansr & not wanting to repeat myself, have you already forgotten what I said re AirPlay & WiFi in post #85?

 

If you are still using Linn Kazoo & the BubbleUPnP Server with no changes in their configurations for streaming FLAC files from Tidal, then the Marantz should still be receiving FLAC using WiFi.

 

Another suggestion. Have you checked to see if the Marantz has exactly the same DSP settings (if any) as you had when playing the FLAC files over the wired network?

[Yorkie]

Entirely agree with Mansr & not wanting to repeat myself, have you already forgotten what I said re AirPlay & WiFi in post #85?

 

If you are still using Linn Kazoo & the BubbleUPnP Server with no changes in their configurations for streaming FLAC files from Tidal, then the Marantz should still be receiving FLAC using WiFi.

 

Another suggestion. Have you checked to see if the Marantz has exactly the same DSP settings (if any) as you had when playing the FLAC files over the wired network?

 

No, I haven't forgotten your lecture!!! In fact, I have been reluctant to admit the problem over the wi-fi quality for fear it's just an emotional reaction (crappy wi-fi, not a REAL copper connection...) but my ear is good and it's telling me there's a difference. The same difference between spending £1000 and £2000 on speakers, so it's subtle but important.

 

AVR is exactly the same in both cases: with all this setting up, I'm just leaving everything on default factory settings which actually works well. Just setting the bi-amping and the ON volume, nothing more.

 

I've stupidly lost the ability to use Linn Kazoo.... I got so frustrated and fed up with the whole sorry system that when Kazoo yet again asked me if I wanted to install the update, I just said OK, fed up with that, too, and didn't do a system restore point first. The Kazoo upgrade doesn't work, so I'm down to running the system from tablet or phone. But that never made any difference in the past, so I don't suppose it makes any difference now.

 

Louise

[Cebolla]

I can get a bit carried away, but I reckon you got away with a rather short one by my standards. However, it's normally the commulative affect that wears 'em down

 

Hang on a minute - what's this about not using Linn Kazoo for control? What with that AirPlay symbol appearing on the Marantz instead of a 'proper' WiFi one, not wanting to be a teeny bit suspicious, but... Exactly what tablet and/or phone are you using now & with what app?

[Yorkie]

I can get a bit carried away, but I reckon you got away with a rather short one by my standards. However, it's normally the commulative affect that wears 'em down

 

Hang on a minute - what's this about not using Linn Kazoo for control? What with that AirPlay symbol appearing on the Marantz instead of a 'proper' WiFi one, not wanting to be a teeny bit suspicious, but... Exactly what tablet and/or phone are you using now & with what app?

 

I take a bit of wearing down, although the Marantz is now achieving it! But, forewarned and all that, I'll be a bit more careful around you in future

 

I always had the choice of Linn Kazoo / Bubble on the Winows PC or Bubble UPnP direct on the Galaxy phones (which lists TIDAL) and now on the Galaxy Tablet. Linn Kazoo always seemd to be a bit of a liability to be honest, the Android option was more reliable, but limited by the smaller screen. I don't know why Bubble Server doesn't simply list TIDAL as the Android version does.

[Apesbrain]

From their website:

 

BUBBLEUPNP SERVER IS NOT AN UPNP AV MEDIA SERVER.

Unless BubbleUPnP Server is used only for use with Chromecast, it requires at least one working UPnP AV Media Server or Media Renderer to do something useful.

 

> I don't know why Bubble Server doesn't simply list TIDAL as the Android version does.

[Yorkie]

From their website:

 

BUBBLEUPNP SERVER IS NOT AN UPNP AV MEDIA SERVER.

Unless BubbleUPnP Server is used only for use with Chromecast, it requires at least one working UPnP AV Media Server or Media Renderer to do something useful.

 

> I don't know why Bubble Server doesn't simply list TIDAL as the Android version does.

 

I've never really got the hang of what a media server is, there seem to be so many of them! Spotify's good, it just works, why can't TIDAL?

 

I do have a Media Renderer, that's in the AVR. So I qualify, don't I?

[Cebolla]

Yes, with the AVR containing a standard UPnP/DLNA media renderer, you do qualify.

 

UPnP/DLNA AV media servers exist to provide UPnP/DLNA media renderers access to their media file libraries stored on a networked device such as a computer or NAS (ie, normally your own music files). Nothing to do with the online servers used by internet music streaming services, such as Spotify and TIDAL. The CA Academy guide on UPnP/DLNA might be worth a read:

Computer Audiophile - The Complete Guide To HiFi UPnP / DLNA Network Audio

 

I believe the notice is for those that may erroneously confuse the 'server' in BubbleUPnP Server's name with it being an actual UPnP/DLNA AV media server. I think it was originally intended as a helper application for the BubbleUPnP Android app (ie, as its 'server'), though later changed to be a more general helper application for all standard UPnP/DLNA, OpenHome & Chromecast devices and software, as the number of its helper functions increased.

 

So as Apesbrain suggests, the BubbleUPnP Server is not the Windows version of the BubbleUPnP Android app, but (from what you've described of your current situation) a possible helper application for the BubbleUPnP Android app and the Marantz.

 

The BubbleUPnP Android app may or may not be using the BubbleUPnP Server (depending on how you've configured and are using the BubbleUPnP Android app) and it certainly does not require to use it.

 

The BubbleUPnP Android app can provide TIDAL support to standard UPnP/DLNA streamers like your Marantz, without it nor your Marantz needing the BubbleUPnP Server.

 

Having said all of that, you should still be getting TIDAL HiFi FLAC streaming, unless you are using the BubbleUPnP Android app with its

Settings>Local Media Server>(CLOUD CONTENT) TIDAL>WiFi/Eth audio quality

set to AAC 320 kbps (should be set to FLAC).

 

BTW, are you using the Marantz as its native standard UPnP/DLNA renderer or its BubbleUPnP Server created OpenHome renderer, with the BubbleUPnP Android app?

[Yorkie]

UPnP/DLNA AV media servers exist to provide UPnP/DLNA media renderers access to their media file libraries stored on a networked device such as a computer or NAS (ie, normally your own music files). Nothing to do with the online servers used by internet music streaming services, such as Spotify and TIDAL.

 

I think, then, that the servers are irrelevant because I use only online service, I have no local files.

 

 

The CA Academy guide on UPnP/DLNA might be worth a read:

Computer Audiophile - The Complete Guide To HiFi UPnP / DLNA Network Audio

 

An excellent link, thank you. I've studied it and it tidied up the understanding I had. The relevant part, I suspect, to this matter, is this sentence:

 

 

A successful HiFi UPnP implementation requires a robust and reliable wired and wireless network.

 

 

So is it simply (!!) that my Free network is less robust and reliable than the old Orange one was? It would appear so.

 

The BubbleUPnP Android app can provide TIDAL support to standard UPnP/DLNA streamers like your Marantz, without it nor your Marantz needing the BubbleUPnP Server.

 

Having said all of that, you should still be getting TIDAL HiFi FLAC streaming, unless you are using the BubbleUPnP Android app with its

Settings>Local Media Server>(CLOUD CONTENT) TIDAL>WiFi/Eth audio quality

set to AAC 320 kbps (should be set to FLAC).

 

 

It's set to FLAC.

BTW, are you using the Marantz as its native standard UPnP/DLNA renderer or its BubbleUPnP Server created OpenHome renderer, with the BubbleUPnP Android app?

 

 

This bit confuses me. As the network connection to the Marantz carries only network data, surely I must be using the Marantz renderer? Both Bubble (PC) and Bubble (Android) require me to 'Create an open-home renderer', offering me 'Marantz SR6009' as a selectable choice, which I do select.

 

Sometimes, it offers two choices of Marantz, 'Marantz SR6009' and 'Marantz SR6009 OpenHome'. If I select the OpenHome option, I get the following message:

 

 

The selected renderer has an associated OpenHome renderer that may interfere with playback control.

 

Possible solutions:

 

Select the OpenHome renderer instead of this one

Or continue using this renderer but make sure the Playlist of the OpenHome renderer is empty so it doesn't interfere

Or continue using this renderer but disable the OpenHome renderer in the BubbleUPnP Server web configuration page

 

 

I generally take the easy way and select the other one!

[Yorkie]

I've done a clean re-install of Bubble (Android) on the pad and found that the OpenHome renderer issue was probably a FFS problem (fiddling fingers...). It's a check box to create a virtual renderer to enable a quicker response if the remote control point isn't working. I've not checked it this time!

 

Marantz have not offered a phone number for an ISP tech to talk to them, instead they confirm the issue probably is the ISP router and ask if I want to change my Marantz product. Not much point, really, if the problem isn't the AVR, so its time to either choose a router or call for a network tech.

[Cebolla]

An excellent link, thank you. I've studied it and it tidied up the understanding I had. The relevant part, I suspect, to this matter, is this sentence:

A successful HiFi UPnP implementation requires a robust and reliable wired and wireless network.

So is it simply (!!) that my Free network is less robust and reliable than the old Orange one was? It would appear so.

Well, perhaps, though as I said earlier, your Marantz not being able to reconnect to the wired network after powering up, such that you need to do a factory reset to allow it to connect to the network again, sounds more likely a problem with the Marantz, rather than the network hardware. The assumption is that you did check the basics, like use (if not swap) the network cable connection of a known working networked device (eg your computer's, as that doesn't seem to have this network connectivity issue) and would account for any problem with its original network cable and/or the router's ethernet port it's connected to.

 

The UPnP/DLNA network protocol certainly requires the network to be resilient and dependable, as does any other network protocol. What the guide doesn't go on to say is the most common problem encountered with UPnP/DLNA streaming, UPnP device discovery. Some routers have a particular issue with not properly supporting IGMP multicast, which is used in UPnP discovery, resulting in strange behaviour like UPnP devices suddenly dissappearing from a UPnP controller's UPnP media server & UPnP renderer device lists or not being there in the first place.

 

However, none of this multicast stuff can even kick in as far as the Marantz is concerned, if its not even able to do a basic connection to the network with a valid IP address. So no point even worrying about UPnP/DLNA issues until that's been sorted out.

 

 

 

This bit confuses me. As the network connection to the Marantz carries only network data, surely I must be using the Marantz renderer? Both Bubble (PC) and Bubble (Android) require me to 'Create an open-home renderer', offering me 'Marantz SR6009' as a selectable choice, which I do select.

Ok. First thing don't forget the BubbleUPnP Server is only there as a helper application and does not perform the same function as the BubbleUPnP Android app, which you are using as a UPnP control point, aka controller (ie, to control the playback of your Marantz as a UPnP renderer streaming, in your case, TIDAL FLAC file tracks, plus creating & maintaining the current playlist of those file tracks). Unlike the BubbleUPnP Server, the BubbleUPnP Android app cannot 'create' an OpenHome Renderer for the Marantz, so I don't know where you got that from.

 

In your case you've used the BubbleUPnP Server to 'create' an OpenHome (aka UPnP with Linn extensions) renderer for the Marantz, in order to be able to use it with an OpenHome controller, such as the Linn Kazoo app, for TIDAL access. You need to do this because OpenHome is not normally compatible with standard UPnP/DLNA, so you cannot use the Linn Kazoo app to control your Marantz's built-in standard UPnP renderer. What the BubbleUPnP Server does is run an OpenHome renderer emulator to 'trick' the Linn Kazoo app into thinking it's controlling a (virtual) Marantz OpenHome renderer and then translate the received OpenHome controller 'speak' into standard UPnP controller 'speak', which actually gets sent to your Marantz's standard UPnP renderer in order to control its playback. So it's the BubbleUPnP Server acting as the go between that's controlling the Marantz's UPnP streaming, not the Linn Kazoo controller app.

 

Once you've created the OpenHome Renderer on the BubbleUPnP Server for the Marantz, here should be no need to revisit its web browser app configuration page. Leave it to do its job, automatically running in the background as a Windows Service application. The virtual Marantz OpenHome renderer will always be available for any OpenHome controller, as long as both the Windows machine with the BubbleUPnP Server and the Marantz are connected to the network.

 

BTW, TIDAL support is actually optional for OpenHome renderers. It just so happens that the BubbleUPnP Server developer has implemented the necessary support in its OpenHome renderer emulator. Otherwise TIDAL would not appear as an option on the Linn Kazoo app's music source selection screen.

 

 

 

Sometimes, it offers two choices of Marantz, 'Marantz SR6009' and 'Marantz SR6009 OpenHome'. If I select the OpenHome option, I get the following message:

The selected renderer has an associated OpenHome renderer that may interfere with playback control.

 

Possible solutions:

 

Select the OpenHome renderer instead of this one

Or continue using this renderer but make sure the Playlist of the OpenHome renderer is empty so it doesn't interfere

Or continue using this renderer but disable the OpenHome renderer in the BubbleUPnP Server web configuration page

I generally take the easy way and select the other one!

The BubbleUPnP Android app is not just a standard UPnP/DLNA control point (aka controller); it is also an OpenHome control point (aka controller). This is why you can see both the Marantz's actual standard UPnP/DLNA renderer and the virtual Marantz OpenHome renderer maintained by the BubbleUPnP Server (when its Windows computer is connected to the network).

 

To complicate things even further the BubbleUPnP Android app has full built-in support for TIDAL. This means that you can access TIDAL with it if use it to control a standard UPnP/DLNA renderer, or even if you use it to control an OpenHome renderer that hasn't had its optional TIDAL support enabled. Of course if you do use it to control an OpenHome renderer that already has TIDAL support (eg the vitual Marantz OpenHome Renderer, Linn DS streamers, Lumin streamers, etc), then it will yield its TIDAL support in favour of the renderer's TIDAL support and behave like a 'normal' OpenHome controller like Linn Kazoo. This may seem like a subtle difference, but it actually determines which setting for the quality of audio stream from TIDAL is being used, ie, the BubbleUPnP Android app's or the OpenHome Renderer's.

 

The message is a warning to not use the BubbleUPnP Android app as a standard UPnP controller to a renderer that supports both standard UPnP and OpenHome that you may be already using with a remote OpenHome controller (eg Linn Kazoo) on the network (it just needs to be connected to the network, so passively 'seeing' the renderer - not even someone actually using it). This is because the two systems handle the current playlist differently and using the two different systems controllers on the network on the one renderer will lead to upredictable/erratic track playback.

[Cebolla]

I've done a clean re-install of Bubble (Android) on the pad and found that the OpenHome renderer issue was probably a FFS problem (fiddling fingers...). It's a check box to create a virtual renderer to enable a quicker response if the remote control point isn't working. I've not checked it this time!.

Ah, right - your reference to OpenHome renderer creation with the BubbleUPnP Android app now makes a bit more sense. In addition to being a standard UPnP/DLNA control point, an OpenHome control point and providing support for online/cloud music services sucha as TIDAL, the BubbleUPnP Android app has a built-in standard local UPnP/DLNA media renderer. This allows the android device its running on to be used as a network media player, allowing it to be controlled by any (other) standard UPnP/DLNA control point on the network.

 

Thus the Settings>Local Renderer>OPENHOME RENDERER>Enable/Create an OpenHome Local Renderer checkbox I think you're referring to, is actually to create an OpenHome renderer for its own built-in local standard UPnP/DLNA renderer. So unlike the BubbleUPnP Server, it's nothing to do with creating a virtual OpenHome renderer for any other (non-local/remote) standard UPnP/DLNA on the network (including your Marantz, as you seemed to be implying in your previous post).

 

One of the reasons for the difference between the two systems in the way they handle the current playlist, is that with OpenHome the current playlist is kept on the renderer; with standard UPnP its kept on the control point. This gives the OpenHome renderer the ability to carry on playing the rest of the tracks in the current playlist, should the control point disconnect from the network (eg by shutting down or be used to control another renderer). This cannot be done under standard UPnP/DLNA. This is what the notice by the Enable/Create an OpenHome Local Renderer checkbox means:

Useful for remote control of the local renderer as it does not require the remote Control Point to be running to advance in playlist.

So not to quite "to enable a quicker response if the remote control point isn't working", though of course the BubbleUPnP Android app's local OpenHome renderer does have the ability to carry on playing should the remote OpenHome control point stop working for some reason.

[Yorkie]

Well, perhaps, though as I said earlier, your Marantz not being able to reconnect to the wired network after powering up, such that you need to do a factory reset to allow it to connect to the network again, sounds more likely a problem with the Marantz, rather than the network hardware. The assumption is that you did check the basics, like use (if not swap) the network cable connection of a known working networked device (eg your computer's, as that doesn't seem to have this network connectivity issue) and would account for any problem with its original network cable and/or the router's ethernet port it's connected to.

 

This still bothers me. Mostly, now, it seems able to reconnect after a routine network set-up, it's a while since I needed to do a factory reset. But even so, if an unstable network had dropped the connection, surely the Marantz wouldn't need a reset of any kind? It still has all the IPs set up and should just get going again. Is this true?

 

Today I'll switch it onto a known working connection and try again. If it fails, I'm more inclined to try to return the AVR and get something else.

 

Louise

[Yorkie]

Marantz have asked me if the AVR is close to the router. If so, they said, move it further away.

 

Does this make any sense? This is on the support ticket relating to the loss of connection on cable.

[Yorkie]

The Marantz had lasted three days with a cabled connection, so far, after trying Marantz's suggestion of moving the router and TV box far from the AVR.

Of course, it's not a working solution, all sit in the TV console so that the remotes all work and the signal paths are all short. To try this out, I'd put the router upstairs on a different telephone point, but that loses the television.

 

So why should separating the AVR from router ad TV box help the AVR stay connected? Is this something to do with reflections in short network cables (easy to fix) or poor shielding of some of the black boxes (harder to fix)?

[mansr]

The Marantz had lasted three days with a cabled connection, so far, after trying Marantz's suggestion of moving the router and TV box far from the AVR.

Of course, it's not a working solution, all sit in the TV console so that the remotes all work and the signal paths are all short. To try this out, I'd put the router upstairs on a different telephone point, but that loses the television.

 

So why should separating the AVR from router ad TV box help the AVR stay connected? Is this something to do with reflections in short network cables (easy to fix) or poor shielding of some of the black boxes (harder to fix)?

 

I can think of no reason why the distance would matter. Ethernet works fine with cables only a few inches long.

[jabbr]

Marantz have asked me if the AVR is close to the router. If so, they said, move it further away.

 

Does this make any sense? This is on the support ticket relating to the loss of connection on cable.

 

That's really weird if the case. Possibly that "green" Ethernet reduces power for shorter connections -- possibly that the implementation is "suboptimal" for low powered connections. If true that's out of spec...

[esmit]

I can only imagine that too close might overpower your wireless connection in some way. Last resort might be the exchange Marantz proposed to you, maybe a newer unit has less problems? But still, if the router of your previous ISP worked flawlessly, the router appears to be the culprit.

[Yorkie]

I can only imagine that too close might overpower your wireless connection in some way. Last resort might be the exchange Marantz proposed to you, maybe a newer unit has less problems? But still, if the router of your previous ISP worked flawlessly, the router appears to be the culprit.

 

Marantz wrote to clarify that they had in fact told me to separate the router and TV box, not the Marantz. This had been lost in translation. If anything, this was more bizarre, but anyway, the set-up I was running had achieved that, and had been stable since then, a bit over two wonderful weeks!

 

This morning, the Marantz offered an update 'to improve stability'. Thinking they've caught the problem, I greedily gobbled up the update, and in happy expectation turned the music back on. Nothing.

 

The Marantz is connected, it shows as the correct renderer on all control points, it plays radio, but it won't respond to streaming, either Bubble / Tidal or Spotify.

 

Happy New Year, Marantz.

[Yorkie]

Update, good news! The Marantz began to play again after yet another factory reset, and Marantz told me that what was needed was distance between the router and the TV box. Bizarre and they haven't explained why, but it works just fine. A couple of weeks now, without a problem.

 

I've taken all control points bar one from the system, they did seem to be fighting each other. Now I have Linn Kazoo (an old version) with Bubble Server, and nothing else.

 

It's unlikely that anyone reading this forum will be concerned with the internet service from Free in France, but just in case, beware! The service here from Free is nowhere near as good as the service I had from Orange, with a lot of peak time drop-outs. Orange is actually the state's telephone distribution service re-badged and partly privatized, so they own the cables. ISP Free rent connection from them, and presumably, Orange take priority over traffic. I'm locked in for a contract period, dammit!

 

Louise

[esmit]

Well, at least it is free ;-)