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Miles Davis Kind of Blue - How many more years you need?


STC

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what audiophiles really need is properly conducted reviews

Objective articles in the audiophile press are hard to come by - everyone seems to have an angle. Frankly, even though I am super media aware, I get confused and caught up in the reviewers web. Recently, I have grown a thick hide and have firmly decided that, like other supposed enhancements, I'm letting MQA slide on by. I'm just not repurchasing my audio collection - once again. I couldn't care less how much more "bloom" is said to appear out of nowhere on Kind of Blue.

Music Server(s): Aurender N100H, Digital to Analog Converter(s): Audio Research DAC 8, Digital to Digital Converter: Bryston BUC-1, Preamplifier: Ayre K-5xeMP, Amplifier(s): Ayre V-5xe, Loudspeakers: Revel Ultima Salon 2, Interconnects: Kimber PBJ, Cardas Clear, Bryston AES/EBU, Loudspeaker Cables: Kimber PR8, Miscellaneous: Oppo BDP 95 disk player, CJ Walker turntable Jelco SA-750D tone arm, Ortofon 2M black cartridge, Magnum Dynalab tuner, Dream System: I've got it!, Headphones: Sennheiser HD600, Grado PS500e, Headphone Amplifier(s):Graham Slee Novo

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ST, For me it is listening to the whole thing, or any part. I think the best way to understand this is to listen to the tape. If you are in the SF Bay area or are visiting, I would be happy to play it for you. vs. your CD or LP. Larry

 

Hi Larry, thank you for the invite. Will call you when I cross the border. :)

 

I am not disputing the difference that can be found in tapes or Vinyls. A SACD, DSD, CD or vinyl will sound different and even different pressing can sound different. We may and often do perceive extra details with one format over the others.

 

My concern is the perpetual improvement of extra details with whatever mediums you have with the change of equipment. With respect to the poster who reviewed his new DAC, I quote him....

 

every album I listen to from that era (late 50's to mid / later 60's) are really great sounding through NOS1. Those old Ella recordings clear, dynamic, stage depth, details never heard before - I am still shocked (pleasantly) when I listened to them and all my other old recordings.

 

I have seen tens of people I know, repeat the same thing about how a new amplifier or DAC magically retrieve never heard before details. This would be understable if they moved from PC sound card to a high End DAC but in one year the new details are keep on flowing with the change of the plugs, wires, resonators, amplifiers or DAC.

 

They are no extra details to be discovered from our recordings. Not after so many years.

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Hi Larry, thank you for the invite. Will call you when I cross the border. :)

 

I am not disputing the difference that can be found in tapes or Vinyls. A SACD, DSD, CD or vinyl will sound different and even different pressing can sound different. We may and often do perceive extra details with one format over the others.

 

My concern is the perpetual improvement of extra details with whatever mediums you have with the change of equipment. With respect to the poster who reviewed his new DAC, I quote him....

 

 

 

I have seen tens of people I know, repeat the same thing about how a new amplifier or DAC magically retrieve never heard before details. This would be understable if they moved from PC sound card to a high End DAC but in one year the new details are keep on flowing with the change of the plugs, wires, resonators, amplifiers or DAC.

 

They are no extra details to be discovered from our recordings. Not after so many years.

 

I have a different perspective. Hearing a safety master with top flight equipment (Ampex ATR-102 and Doshi 3.0 prepro) tells me that all the detail and musical qualities of many great recordings of the '50's and '60's were not extracted by original vinyl or CD issues.

 

Separately, if one improves the quality of DAC or cartridge I don't know why it could not reveal more of what is in the record or CD than a less revealing device.

 

Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp

Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Horizon, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105

Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps; Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

Other-2x512EngineerMarutaniSymmetrical Power+Cables Music-1.8KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50+TBripped files

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Perhaps this email from Bob Belden maybe relevant here...

 

"Every issue of Miles Davis titles that come from Japan were mastered by Mark Wilder and Seth Foster in NYC. The Japanese use the US generated masters. The difference in sound (if there is any) is due to the manufacturing specifications of each country.

 

"These new (2000) Japanese issues are downconverted from DSD masters. In mid-2002, Legacy will release "Filles De Kilimanjaro", "Water Babies" and "In A Silent Way" as single CD's. They will be mastered from the current analog masters using DSD. For "In A Silent", the original 1969 analog master will be used as the tape is in great shape. "Filles" will have an extra track as well as "Water Babies".

 

"Every version that has been issued is going to be different than the previous. In the eighties and nineties, Columbia had difficulty addressing digital information and had reissue producers who were mere clerks. As a result, many of the issued CD's were from second or third generation masters. Starting in 1996, with the Mastersound series for Japan, close attention to the original source became the focus of the project. For instance, Round Midnight had been issued on CD using a third generation Dolby A copy (made from a second generation (1973) Dolby A Ampex 456. On the DSD reissue, the original tape made in 1956 was used and the difference is subtle but stunning.

 

"'Live At The Blackhawk' (both volumes) suffered from complete deterioration of the master two-track analog tape, (a fourth generation Dolby A copy made on Ampex 456-the worst case senario) so the DSD mastered version (made in November of 2001 for Japan) was created from the original three-track master mixed directly into the Genex (the DSD master) using minimal sonic adjustments. That is as close to the original source you are going to get, and it represents the best aspects of the music."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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That too happened to me recently. It always happened when I added or changed something to the system.

 

The recent encounter was with amplifiers. I heard so many new details that wasn't there. After several weeks with the new Amp, I decided to sell the old Amp but not before giving it one last listening session.

 

It turned out that all the new details were also in the old Amp. They were as clear as the new new amplifier's. Either, my old Amp suddenly self improved or I was listening for improvements with the new amplifiers.

 

Yep, I've had this experience. Thought I heard something new and turns out it was there all along.

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Perhaps this email from Bob Belden maybe relevant here...
\\

 

One of the great tragedies of the recording world was the sticky shed issues with much of the Ampex 456 tapes (and some others - but Ampex 456 was the main culprit). This occurred in the 70's and early '80's and many master tapes were damaged or lost because of the sticky shed syndrome - SSS. One solution has been to bake the tapes and then make a high quality duplicate with good tape. A good friend has several safety master tapes which were made during that era. Some used Agfa tape and Scotch tape, both of which were fine with no SSS. However others were mastered with Ampex 456. One of them was the famous album by Journey called Escape. I was able to successfully bake the 2 tape set and then dub the baked copies to new 1/2" tape with excellent results. The baking is usually good for a month or so, and then sometimes it can have another round of baking.

 

Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp

Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Horizon, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105

Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps; Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

Other-2x512EngineerMarutaniSymmetrical Power+Cables Music-1.8KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50+TBripped files

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Objective articles in the audiophile press are hard to come by - everyone seems to have an angle. Frankly, even though I am super media aware, I get confused and caught up in the reviewers web. Recently, I have grown a thick hide and have firmly decided that, like other supposed enhancements, I'm letting MQA slide on by. I'm just not repurchasing my audio collection - once again. I couldn't care less how much more "bloom" is said to appear out of nowhere on Kind of Blue.

And that probably wasn't why you loved it in the first place. The bloom. It was the music.

 

Even if there are better versions, the ones you already know are never going to be less good.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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It's not a stellar recording, though

You're being polite. KOB was not a paragon of recording virtue, although reports of recent listening to the safety tapes suggest that the masters were a lot better than the product they spawned. I'm sure many of you have read John Marks' 2006 write up of a listening session with the remaining original tapes conducted by Mark Wilder at the Sony mastering labs in New York.

 

The good: "To say the least, it sounded extraordinarily immediate. The stereo SACD is, in contrast, two generations removed: first, a three-track to two-track analog tape intermaster (to allow for sequencing the tracks), and second, the SACD itself."

 

The not so good: "Because Kind of Blue was recorded in multitrack mono, without the use of any real stereophonic microphone techniques, the instruments appear in fairly constricted left, center, and right locations." Remember that the track on which Davis and Chambers were recorded was modified with an acoustic echo chamber in the basement of the studio building - a mic'ed feed was sent to a speaker in the basement and a second mic down there was used to pick up the natural echoes and add them to the dry recording. I was surprised to read Marks' thoughts on the addition of that reverb: "Although only Davis and Chambers' track had a send and return to and from the echo chamber, there was some degree of leakage from the other instruments. Perhaps that helps account for the recording's naturally ambient sound." It doesn't sound "naturally ambient" to me - it sounds like what it is.

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You're being polite. KOB was not a paragon of recording virtue, although reports of recent listening to the safety tapes suggest that the masters were a lot better than the product they spawned. I'm sure many of you have read John Marks' 2006 write up of a listening session with the remaining original tapes conducted by Mark Wilder at the Sony mastering labs in New York.

 

The good: "To say the least, it sounded extraordinarily immediate. The stereo SACD is, in contrast, two generations removed: first, a three-track to two-track analog tape intermaster (to allow for sequencing the tracks), and second, the SACD itself."

 

The not so good: "Because Kind of Blue was recorded in multitrack mono, without the use of any real stereophonic microphone techniques, the instruments appear in fairly constricted left, center, and right locations." Remember that the track on which Davis and Chambers were recorded was modified with an acoustic echo chamber in the basement of the studio building - a mic'ed feed was sent to a speaker in the basement and a second mic down there was used to pick up the natural echoes and add them to the dry recording. I was surprised to read Marks' thoughts on the addition of that reverb: "Although only Davis and Chambers' track had a send and return to and from the echo chamber, there was some degree of leakage from the other instruments. Perhaps that helps account for the recording's naturally ambient sound." It doesn't sound "naturally ambient" to me - it sounds like what it is.

 

I agree with your post here. That is why I said earlier it is the music people like more so than the recording. And perhaps that fake ambient, somewhat hazy sound lets everyone imagine the music in a way that is different for each individual. Same recording, uniquely personal experience of it.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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so I should try to find a MFSL CD?

 

or is there something else?

 

Haven't heard them all. I owned an LP (though not in great condition), I have the Sony Super Bit mapping gold CD which I prefer to other CD and LP copies. This is a 1992 versions. There were a couple of later Columbia Master Series gold CDs as well. There was the SACD version to consider which I have not heard.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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so I should try to find a MFSL CD? or is there something else?

I just listen to a rip of one of my run of the mill CDs whenever I want to hear KoB. I have several vinyl versions, including 2 originals and one "audiophile" platter, but the music thankfully escapes the limits of its physical envelope regardless of the delivery method. KoB is simply not going to be anyone's demo recording no matter how it's transduced. If I didn't already have multiple versions, I'd pick up a plain old CD to enjoy the magic. Every source I've heard has been sufficiently flawed to make the format irrelevant - you simply don't buy or listen to KoB for its sonic properties.

 

The one exception is that many "bargain" CDs seem to lose the bass, especially the head on "So What". It's not strong on any, but it's almost nonexistent on some. MFSL sounds pretty good to me.

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I actually use KoB as a gear testing album. I have 3 CD versions and have checked out 3 hi-res ones. I don't use gramophone so I can't recommend any vinyl. As for digital - get 2007 Sony Japan SACD remix (in general I'm not a fan of remixes but this one sound almost as if recorded yesterday keeping at the same time the atmosphere of the original) if you can to enjoy it in its full glory.

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The older (not the MFSL) SACD/DSD is quite good, as are the PCM hi-res downloads from 2013, or whatever date it was.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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I have about 8 different versions of KOB and/or rips from several different CD's manufactured in different years and I also have 3 different downloaded hi res versions (if you think that's a lot, don't ask about how many versions of Steely Dans's Aja and Gaucho I have, lol).

I will say that to me, both the Japan 2007 SACD / DSD and the MoFi SACD / DSD sound the best to my ears.

They both sound a bit different (definitely distinguishable), so out of these two versions, it becomes more a matter of preference I think.

The same goes for the Steely Dan's and a few other albums I have 8-10 different versions of (I have used these to try and determine the differences between ripped DSD vs SACD vs 1985 CD vs 2004 remaster vs MP3 via Itunes vs 2023 extended edition vs 16/44 vs 24/96 vs 24/192 vs BluRay audio vs Tidal stream - Haha!

I think you get the point and I'm sure I'm. It the only one in here that has sat down on a Sunday afternoon and listened to 10 versions and 4 different formats of the same album or song to see which is best and what are the differences!

Overall, I've decided at this point, that:

a. Every single format and version and year of the same song or album

does sound different (some are clearly much worse or much better immediately, others require A and B over and over and critical listening).

B. The "best sounding" version or format has been different for me for every one of these songs or albums I've done this experiment with.

Believe it or not, Tidal was the best for a couple (vs SACD or 24/192), most it is usually one of the SACD or DSD versions, and sometimes a rip from

an old CD (1985-1987).

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I will say that to me, both the Japan 2007 SACD / DSD and the MoFi SACD / DSD sound the best to my ears.

They both sound a bit different (definitely distinguishable), so out of these two versions, it becomes more a matter of preference I think. .

I know both and they sound VERY different. The reason - the 2007 SACD is a remix from the original 3ch master tapes, MoFi - just a remaster (as far as I know they even didn't have access to the original master tapes). The sound difference is HUGE! Get the 2007 Japanese SACD if you don't mind it's a remix.
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ok, what do I look for on the outer packaging of the 2007 Japanese SACD Kind of Blue?

 

i..e. I want to make sure I have the right thing without opening the package by looking thru the shirnk wrap, so I can return it if not the right one

 

I think this is the one you are looking for:

 

CDJapan : Kind Of Blue [sACD Hybrid] Miles Davis SACD

 

Sony Catalog Number SICP-10083

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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