The End of America?

[NOMBEDES]

 

Well to be honest the anti Muslim sentiment in Europe is stronger then the anti-Jewish sentiment. Many people were I live have nothing against the Jewish religion but do have anti Israel sentiments.

 

 

Indeed. I am not a big fan of some of Israel's policies. The problem comes when people attack Jewish people because of the state of Israel.

[Priaptor]

Why would that be? If I understand correctly you have the senate to represent the individual states. Why involve the separates states at all in presidential elections?

 

Isn't equal representation the basis of a democracy?

 

If you read the framers the great debate and one of the compromises was how the Senate and House would be represented. There was tremendous discord over how the representation would occur. The Framers wanted it based strictly on population but the smaller states, which were INDEPENDENT but loosely affiliated wouldn't agree as they wanted at least equal representation in at least one house and how the House became apportioned based on population and the Senate equal among the states regardless of population. The concept of our Framers was to reach that compromise of population versus geographical interests.

 

Likewise, the GREATEST compromise by our Framers was to delegate 17 enumerated powers to the Federal Government and all powers not enumerated would be relegated to the states. We are a Constitutional Republic, quite different than a strict democracy and why you may not understand the concept of the electoral college and House/Senate as it is.

 

All of this has obviously changed over time as our Constitution has been amended and manipulated over time. Prior to the 17th Amendment passed in 1912, state legislators elected Senators to serve in the Senate. IMHO, this was a bad amendment but it became an amendment nonetheless replacing the vote by State Legislators with the popular vote in each state. SO the point being is the electoral college and other means of voting could always be changed by amendment. Why do I think it was a bad amendment? Because it turned the Senate and Senators elected to it into federalists, accountable to the federal government rather than the interests of the states that voted for them.

 

So just my opinion and shared by a couple of states, I just think the apportionment of vote, based on both geography and population should be taken one step further. There are people of the opinion that it should be taken many steps the other way and, as you say, based strictly on popular vote and eliminate the electoral college. It is my belief and that of many others it would hurt not help our Republic. The whole concept of a Constitutional Republic is to ensure the rights of the loser of any election more so than adopting the policies of winner. Winning an election doesn't eliminate the Constitutional rights of the minority no matter how much our modern political machine would like to believe to the contrary and have demonstrated by both party's actions in the last 100 years.

[CatManDo]

I have been shocked by the reported tide of anti-Jewish activity in the UK (after Brexit) and in France. You would think that the Europeans would have learned the lessons of history. I hope we do not have an upsurge in such activity here in the US.

 

Antisemitism in Europe now mostly comes from immigrated Muslims (the largest communities are Turks in Germany, North Africans in France, Pakistanis in the UK) and often has to do with an anti-Israel sentiment due to the Middle East conflict. Those people have not "learned from the past", unlike the european natives (especially the West Germans, whose understanding of the Holocaust responsibility is very high).

[Jud]

I don't know if you are an American or not (sounds like you are not). To truly understand the electoral college and how we elect our President one needs to understand our history. You many not like it and many others in America may not like it BUT we do have a method to change it if America was so inclined to do so. Our Framers made great compromises to ensure not just an equal proportion delegated to the individual but to the geographical regions of interest. If anything, popular vote carrying the whole state IMHO probably gives much more weight to cities than it should. IMHO, if we were to change the electoral college it would be to assign electoral votes based on districts rather than a winner take all popular vote in the state and surely not the country.

 

 

The two versions of the Electoral College (the original and the Twelfth Amendment) were compromises allowing the Southern states to count their slaves (at a 40% discount ) toward the number of electors without being forced to the choice direct election would have required between having fewer voters and allowing Negro suffrage. Madison proposed the original version of this compromise at the Constitutional Convention.

 

The Twelfth Amendment made it much easier to select party "tickets" of two people, one explicitly running for President, the other for Vice President.

[esldude]

Nice comments and courteous. I will say I resent the title of the thread.

 

Some of priaptor's comments are worth looking at closely. Especially about why a direct democracy is not what the USA was about. Especially how protecting the rights of those who didn't win were in the minds of the framers of the Constitution. Which is why concern with who won the office of president might be overblown.

 

Now my main concern is what kind of audio system will the new POTUS have in the Whitehouse? The one shown in the other thread just isn't good enough. Maybe we need a POTUS system upgrade thread.

[Priaptor]

The two versions of the Electoral College (the original and the Twelfth Amendment) were compromises allowing the Southern states to count their slaves (at a 40% discount ) toward the number of electors without being forced to the choice direct election would have required between having fewer voters and allowing Negro suffrage. Madison proposed the original version of this compromise at the Constitutional Convention.

 

The Twelfth Amendment made it much easier to select party "tickets" of two people, one explicitly running for President, the other for Vice President.

 

Yes. The "compromise" has always been about maintaining equal representation demanded by the smaller states versus population, where our Framers coming from Virginia and NY (more populated states) wanted a bigger say because of their larger populations and the less populated states had, obviously, a different perspective. Yes as you state, our Framers weren't immune from manipulating the slave status for their own benefit. Interesting times.

[mordante]

Winning an election doesn't eliminate the Constitutional rights of the minority no matter how much our modern political machine would like to believe to the contrary and have demonstrated by both party's actions in the last 100 years.

 

I agree with that 100%. In my mind that is why a two party system only gives a veneer of democracy. Since it can lead to a minority of people ruling the majority. This happened in the Trump-Hillary election. Why not turn the presidency into a ceremonial role and make the leader of the biggest party in the house of representatives a prime minister. Prime minister should not have a lot more power compared to a regular minster. Maybe the prime should lead the cabinet and that's it.

 

With direct multi party elections, without a winner takes all system minorities can have their say without being overshadowed by the majority. Why not have a Liberals, Communists, Democrats, Greens, Conservatives etc etc in the houses. Why only two flavours that might appeal to only a few. But since there is a winner takes all system the people who do not agree with either democrats or conservatives never get represented.

 

Maybe to prevent too many parties a minimum of 10% of the votes should be achieved.

 

Also Trias Politica should firmly by uphold. IMHO the Trias Politica is the basis of any democracy. Without it politics is just ego play.

[Norton]

I have been shocked by the reported tide of anti-Jewish activity in the UK (after Brexit) and in France. You would think that the Europeans would have learned the lessons of history. I hope we do not have an upsurge in such activity here in the US.

 

The rise of anti semitism in the UK has nothing directly to do with Brexit, but rather with a particularly ugly variety of left wing anti-west activism that has been drawn to the Labour Party under Corbyn's leadership, following the 2015 election.

 

I've read enough inter-war history to start worrying when a major political party downplays winning parliamentary power in favour of reconfiguring itself as a "movement"

[mansr]

I agree with that 100%. In my mind that is why a two party system only gives a veneer of democracy. Since it can lead to a minority of people ruling the majority. This happened in the Trump-Hillary election. Why not turn the presidency into a ceremonial role and make the leader of the biggest party in the house of representatives a prime minister. Prime minister should not have a lot more power compared to a regular minster. Maybe the prime should lead the cabinet and that's it.

 

With direct multi party elections, without a winner takes all system minorities can have their say without being overshadowed by the majority. Why not have a Liberals, Communists, Democrats, Greens, Conservatives etc etc in the houses. Why only two flavours that might appeal to only a few. But since there is a winner takes all system the people who do not agree with either democrats or conservatives never get represented.

 

Maybe to prevent too many parties a minimum of 10% of the votes should be achieved.

 

Also Trias Politica should firmly by uphold. IMHO the Trias Politica is the basis of any democracy. Without it politics is just ego play.

You just described many European countries. I'm not sure they're any better.

[NOMBEDES]

 

The rise of anti semitism in the UK has nothing directly to do with Brexit, but rather with a particularly ugly variety of left wing anti-west activism that has been drawn to the Labour Party under Corbyn's leadership, following the 2010 election.

 

 

I am sure you are correct. My post was predicated by several articles here in the US that claimed a relationship between Brexit and some nasty racist activity in the UK.

[Norton]

 

 

I am sure you are correct. My post was predicated by several articles here in the US that claimed a relationship between Brexit and some nasty racist activity in the UK.

 

No, the new UK anti-Semites are very specific in their racism...

[lucretius]

I am happy to see so many folks looking at the positives. I don't know if I could, if I were American. As a Canadian, my immediate concern is the US's potential abandonment of free trade and especially NAFTA.

[NOMBEDES]

Antisemitism in Europe now mostly comes from immigrated Muslims (the largest communities are Turks in Germany, North Africans in France, Pakistanis in the UK) and often has to do with an anti-Israel sentiment due to the Middle East conflict. Those people have not "learned from the past", unlike the european natives (especially the West Germans, whose understanding of the Holocaust responsibility is very high).

 

 

I have great respect for your viewpoint. You are sitting in Luxembourg and in a much better position to comment on this issue. Here in the US we read that many Jewish families have left France due to antisemitism. I find it difficult to believe that someone would decamp from the leafy environs of the 16th Arondisement (sp) because of immigrant muslims on the outskirts of Paris.

[wwaldmanfan]

Maybe we can all be kinder to each other today (winner or loser), and recommend some great music to finish this election period. Soothing, energizing, or whatever, great music is great music.

Since you asked, I think there's some folks here that will want this download as much as I do, which will be released the day after Thanksgiving (select Source Audio/WAV):

 

Boots No. 1 – The Official Revival Bootleg | Gillian Welch

[Norton]

I thought Trump sounded a bit nervous.

 

What happens when he doesn't deliver on some of the more outlandish policies he's promised?

[mansr]

I thought Trump sounded a bit nervous.

 

What happens when he doesn't deliver on some of the more outlandish policies he's promised?

The world becomes a better place.

[NOMBEDES]

I am happy to see so many folks looking at the positives. I don't know if I could, if I were American. As a Canadian, my immediate concern is the US's potential abandonment of free trade and especially NAFTA.

 

 

If I were a Canadian, I would worry more about all those Hollywood "stars" crashing your border!!

[NOMBEDES]

I thought Trump sounded a bit nervous.

What happens when he doesn't deliver on some of the more outlandish policies he's promised?

 

Norton has hit the nail on the head! I would find it very surprising if he could deliver on any of his promises.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Apparently the Canadian immigration website crashed last night. Who knew Alec Baldwin could hit refresh so many times in his web browser.

 

 

Planning to flee to Canada? Try accessing the immigration website first - CNNPolitics.com

[Norton]

And I have a turntable...

DSC_9183.jpg by Eloise, on Flickr

 

What's going on with the blu tack?

[esldude]

I thought Trump sounded a bit nervous.

 

What happens when he doesn't deliver on some of the more outlandish policies he's promised?

 

The same thing that has happened to all presidents in my living memory. Obama still hasn't closed Gitmo after promising it the first year in office. Bush 1 had us read his lips, but then wanted us to forget what he said. Reagan was hard core about immigration and then offered amnesty of sorts.

[Priaptor]

Norton has hit the nail on the head! I would find it very surprising if he could deliver on any of his promises.

 

I am not sure he was nervous but absolutely overwhelmed with the message America sent him. If you can't be humbled by that nothing will humble you. While I didn't vote for or support Obama I recognized how amazing it was that we in America voted in our first Black POTUS which was also a humbling and amazing event no matter what ones support.

 

As to his "outlandish" policies? I think the mainstream media made his desired policies more outlandish than he ever could have. As has been stated by Chris and others, most of us Americans understand that there is a limit to what POTUS can do unless they choose to try to subvert the Constitution.

[Priaptor]

apparently the canadian immigration website crashed last night. Who knew alec baldwin could hit refresh so many times in his web browser.

 

 

planning to flee to canada? Try accessing the immigration website first - cnnpolitics.com

 

lol

[Audio_ELF]

What's going on with the blu tack?

That's carefully selected "audio approved" blu tack to balance the cartridge properly...

[mordante]

You just described many European countries. I'm not sure they're any better.

 

Not really true. Belgium has a system with two levels of government, state and national. The UK has an archaic system with the house of lords. France has a the power trip system their presidents wields a lot of power etc

 

I find it disappointing that for EU elections I can only vote for Dutch parties. Why should I not be able to vote for a Greek or Belgium party? European countries, provinces etc I do not care about them. Just lines on a map nothing more. I do not understand why people are so anti EU. Sure there are some minor cultural differences between some countries but who cares.

 

Even globally they whole idea of separate nations is more or less absurd. They are just some line on a map drawn by some long dead people who lost all relevance. That way you rid the world of some evils, patriotism and nationalism.

 

I pro individual rights with a strong safety net for the less fortunate. So guns for everyone, but also abortions, drugs, alcohol, gay marriage, no speed limits on parts of the high way etc.

But with rules to protect the weak, the disabled, the environment. If you hurt (physically, mentally, financially) another or pollute too much you should get punished.