Someone say something about DACs that is so interesting

[esldude]

Okay, then you have to tell me what you mean by transparent. I understand it to mean that the DAC perfectly produces the analog output from a digital source; i.e., adds no character of its own to the sound. If that's so, then they do all sound the same and you can't tell them apart with an ABX test.

 

How do 2 DACs sound different if they are both "transparent"?

 

Example of transparency. You have a source you can feed your system. You insert a good ADC, have it feed a DAC which sits between source and the rest of the system. You find you cannot tell if the source is directly connected or if the ADC/DAC is in the signal path. The ADC/DAC is transparent to what it is fed.

 

You would also know using just the DAC, that said DAC will transparently reproduce the digital signal it is given.

 

If two DACs are transparent then they will sound the same. So I am not saying DACs sound different and are transparent. I am saying most DACs sound the same and are transparent, and some DACs do sound different. The latter may have been massaged for someone's preference. Oddly they often cost more to have a sound of their own instead of being transparent.

 

It does not cost very much these days to get transparent ADCs or DACs. As you can tell in this thread, many seem to have difficulty accepting this state of affairs.

[esldude]

Since I crave bridging divides after the past year plus, I will say that I agree it will be very difficult to tell the difference between DACs with an ABX test. Unless... (I'm keeping the punch line there to myself, at least for a while).

 

You have been keeping that punchline for a year haven't you?

[Indydan]

For sake of argument, let's concede your point. There is still the quality/type of the analog output section of the DAC which will make a difference in how it sounds.

 

Beyond that, to my ears, different DAC technologies do seem to have some difference in how they sound, even if all are somehow "transparent". (Although I'm not sure I agree that any competent DAC is 100% transparent. They are all very close, but not perfect, as far as I can tell.) Some DACs seem to sound "warmer" others "cleaner" etc.

 

I have compared DACs and been able to tell them apart, at least for the ones I tried it with.

 

Very true. We can also discuss how a DAC will sound different if powered by a 4$ wal wart switch mode power supply, or a regulated linear power supply. Then maybe a discussion about Delma Sigma chips vs R2R, etc.

[Indydan]

Hey, on a slightly serious note, I apologize in advance if this is too sappy for some, I will make one comment. Over the generations music has always been something that's has brought people from all races, nations, and walks of life together. There are so many origins and influences in music from diverse places music is one of the few things in the world that truly transcends race, religion, country, gender, everything. The whole world is truly one people and we can see that simple truth so clearly in this hobby, so that is something we can all be proud of, that we celebrate this essential unity in the beauty of music.

 

Well said!

[Indydan]

Since I crave bridging divides after the past year plus, I will say that I agree it will be very difficult to tell the difference between DACs with an ABX test. Unless... (I'm keeping the punch line there to myself, at least for a while).

 

I am not looking to argue, and I ask the following question without sarcasm. If that is true, how can audio websites (Darko, Audiostream, etc.) give detailed explanations of how DACs sound different from each other?

 

It's true that they dont ABX, but rather listen to the different DACs over a long period of time. But they still describe many differences among the DACs they review.

[mansr]

I am not looking to argue, and I ask the following question without sarcasm. If that is true, how can audio websites (Darko, Audiostream, etc.) give detailed explanations of how DACs sound different from each other?

 

To a large extent, they're making it up.

[esldude]

I am not looking to argue, and I ask the following question without sarcasm. If that is true, how can audio websites (Darko, Audiostream, etc.) give detailed explanations of how DACs sound different from each other?

 

It's true that they dont ABX, but rather listen to the different DACs over a long period of time. But they still describe many differences among the DACs they review.

 

As mansr said, they are making it up. Not that they realize this to be the case.

 

It takes so little to lead one to hear non-existent differences when one looks for them, and then have that stuck in your head as an association with a piece of gear, the natural result is all those reviews talking of the differences in great detail. The longer the time taken the greater the effect.

[Ralf11]

very true - it is called Confirmation Bias in most of the scientific literature, and Placebo Effect popularly

[mordante]

Lets include aesthetic of audio.

 

There are some brands of whom I suspect that a majority, or at least a large part of the build costs goes into making the product look good. CNC machined casings, flashy VU meters etcetera. While I enjoy the looks of it. My mind tells I prefer a more simple design. Less money on looks more on engineering and parts.

 

Brand like MSB, MBS, Dan D'Agostino etc come to mind.

[sandyk]

As mansr said, they are making it up. Not that they realize this to be the case.

 

It takes so little to lead one to hear non-existent differences when one looks for them, and then have that stuck in your head as an association with a piece of gear, the natural result is all those reviews talking of the differences in great detail. The longer the time taken the greater the effect.

 

Everybody else is wrong and delusional except the 2 of you ?

 

How many listening sessions do you both get to participate in at other people's houses with many different DACs, Preamps, Power amplifiers,media players, speakers etc ? How many HiFi shows do you both get to attend in order to see and hear what is currently available ?

Admittedly, I haven't been able to attend any HiFi shows recently due to mobility issues, but I have been able to do the visiting friends part on numerous occasions in the last few years and heard some of the very best (and expensive) gear available as well as some more affordable gear.

[esldude]

Everybody else is wrong and delusional except the 2 of you ?

 

How many listening sessions do you both get to participate in at other people's houses with many different DACs, Preamps, Power amplifiers,media players, speakers etc ? How many HiFi shows do you both get to attend in order to see and hear what is currently available ?

Admittedly, I haven't been able to attend any HiFi shows recently due to mobility issues, but I have been able to do the visiting friends part on numerous occasions in the last few years and heard some of the very best (and expensive) gear available as well as some more affordable gear.

 

Never attended a show. I do go to houses of friends and sometimes friends of friends to hear a fair variety of gear. Sometimes take some of my gear over or vice versa. Big differences are rooms and speakers. After that amps. Everything else is small potatoes. When I have taken a DAC or amp over it hasn't sounded hugely embarrassed in a bigger more expensive system. Sometimes the owner decided to get one for themselves.

 

It is a few people, not some huge number. It isn't like I sit here with my gear, make up these ideas and have heard nothing other than what I have. The disdain and mistrust of typical audiophile auditioning practices comes from long experience with others and knowledge of how things work.

 

So no it isn't that we two are right and everyone else delusional. Firstly there are more who share our views than just two. In fact, though not seen on forums like this, such may be the majority. We recognize everyone (including ourselves) is prone to issues if they follow what has become normal audiophile standard operating procedures.

[sandyk]

I do go to houses of friends and sometimes friends of friends to hear a fair variety of gear. Sometimes take some of my gear over or vice versa. Big differences are rooms and speakers.

 

How often do you do this ?

In the last couple of years especially, I have been privileged to hear a lot of gear , that I couldn't in my wildest dreams have expected to hear outside of a Hi Fi show.

More recently, this has been due to being a C.A. member and making some great new friends in Sydney.

[Michael Lavorgna]

As mansr said, they are making it up. Not that they realize this to be the case.

 

If I follow the logic of the arguments presented here, the idea is that all *transparent* DACs sound the same, but all DACs do not sound the same. Therefore, your conclusion, "they are making it up", is based on one of two possibilities; a) I only listen to *transparent* DACs, or b) you are wrong.

 

I realize how easy it is to type things like "they are making it up. Not that they realize this to be the case", but reality intrudes.

 

Cheers.

[mansr]

If I follow the logic of the arguments presented here, the idea is that all *transparent* DACs sound the same, but all DACs do not sound the same. Therefore, your conclusion, "they are making it up", is based on one of two possibilities; a) I only listen to *transparent* DACs, or b) you are wrong.

 

c) some reported differences are real and some made up or imagined.

[sandyk]

So no it isn't that we two are right and everyone else delusional. Firstly there are more who share our views than just two. In fact, though not seen on forums like this, such may be the majority. We recognize everyone (including ourselves) is prone to issues if they follow what has become normal audiophile standard operating procedures.

 

All of the Audiophiles that I personally know in Sydney use non sighted listening for evaluating equipment at listening sessions. In the vast majority of cases , we have also reached a general consensus as to which sounds better.

[Michael Lavorgna]

If that belief makes you happy, sure! Who am I to argue.

 

Back to reality, how do you know?

[lightminer]

I am not looking to argue, and I ask the following question without sarcasm. If that is true, how can audio websites (Darko, Audiostream, etc.) give detailed explanations of how DACs sound different from each other?

 

It's true that they dont ABX, but rather listen to the different DACs over a long period of time. But they still describe many differences among the DACs they review. ----- As mansr said, they are making it up. Not that they realize this to be the case.

 

It takes so little to lead one to hear non-existent differences when one looks for them, and then have that stuck in your head as an association with a piece of gear, the natural result is all those reviews talking of the differences in great detail. The longer the time taken the greater the effect.

 

Well, I think there is something else going on as well. Magnification of minor differences. I read something recently here about a DAC shootout and someone said one of the DACs had slightly less warm lower midrange. That may be correct. Compared to most everyone I know (non-audiophiles) I can hear tons of things they can't and they think I have golden ears. But could I hear the slightly different 'lower midrange' tone change? Not sure. That isn't something I've known that I've heard change before, so I may not be able to engage at that level.

 

10 years ago, or 20, things varied a ton. Whether we are talking cars, cameras, stereo equipment, computers, etc. The fact is, even working in high-tech in Silicon Valley almost anyone could pick up any computer at Costco and get their work done. (Note that 'real computing' is often done off the local node a person types on, which helps this effect.) But what I mean is that 15 years ago we were so so so specific about this vs that, even down to the HD or RAM company, etc. Now almost anything decent will do. Most all cars go well over 100,000 miles now, but in 1990 reliability varied in a fundamental way, as did performance, between brands.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm very picky about products, I think all of us here are - this is a place for picky people to hang out. But the fact is that a lot of stuff is pretty darn good these days. I read am amp review a few years ago in Stereophile and the guy at the end had to say 'okay, I've talked about this vs that one, but frankly they are all pretty darn close together'. I was really happy to read that, the guy was being honest that he had to really stretch himself to hear the difference.

 

So the question is how important is that last 2 or 0.2% difference?

 

Now going the other way, let's take a very common piece of equipment. The Oppo 105d, it has a very modest yet 'well done' DAC section (for the 2-channel part). Taking in USB it is considered 'good' - not exceptional perhaps, but I don't hear people saying it is bad (okay, to be finiky, its not a great disk spinner, but fed high-quality USB can be quite good really). Now - take that and look at the Modwright modifications of it (power supply, output, more boutique parts inside, clock upgrade) and that gets rave reviews as playing with the big guys at any price. That is 2500 plus around 1500 for the device itself. So for 4k every reviewer is saying you can compete with DACs at 20k - 50k. And the same has been widely said about the Schiit Yggdrasil, there you have to give up DSD but many are saying, man for 2.5k or so, it doesn't get toooooo much better than that.

 

So, with the changes to the Oppo105d I think there are 0 people that can't immediately tell a drastic difference between the stock and Modwright option. So there is something beneficial going on there.

 

And this is why TedB has the same philosophy I do with DACs, I have very expensive speakers, pre and amp (well, modest by many systems here, but unthinkable/astronomical compared to the guy on the street) but am just not willing to do that for the DAC as it loses so much value every year. Those two DACs I mention above likely beat 30k options from 10 years ago, certainly 15. My speakers are still top-notch today, very little has changed in 15 years on that side.

 

 

Anyhow, in summary, I see two aspects to this - not just that reviewers are all crazy people, but also 'everything is getting pretty darn good overall' and 'magnification of the small'. And if your job is to review and you get paid to review, are you going to say 'eh, they all sound the same'? I don't think you'll get paid much for that. Their job is to find the differences.

[esldude]

How often do you do this ?

In the last couple of years especially, I have been privileged to hear a lot of gear , that I couldn't in my wildest dreams have expected to hear outside of a Hi Fi show.

More recently, this has been due to being a C.A. member and making some great new friends in Sydney.

 

What is the real answer you are after here? I do this anywhere from once to about three times a month.

 

I did it less for the past year due to other issues. When things are more normal that is about how often.

[esldude]

If I follow the logic of the arguments presented here, the idea is that all *transparent* DACs sound the same, but all DACs do not sound the same. Therefore, your conclusion, "they are making it up", is based on one of two possibilities; a) I only listen to *transparent* DACs, or b) you are wrong.

 

I realize how easy it is to type things like "they are making it up. Not that they realize this to be the case", but reality intrudes.

 

Cheers.

 

If you had read my other comments you would realize the straw man you built. Congrats on earning:

 

[esldude]

All of the Audiophiles that I personally know in Sydney use non sighted listening for evaluating equipment at listening sessions. In the vast majority of cases , we have also reached a general consensus as to which sounds better.

 

It is the same here. And still not a good approach to the truth about things no matter how popular it is. Its entertaining and a good social atmosphere which are all well and good as far as it goes.

[lightminer]

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier - here is an easy response to the conversation - what currently existing $500 Dac can meet or exceed the Schiit Yggdrasil at a list price of 2300 - or is that missing the point somehow?

 

Would be fun to do Modwright-altered Concero HD vs Yggy. I would find that interesting. But Concero HD, or the Emotiva mentioned above? I don't think it can meet the Yggy sound quality.

 

Do you mean theoretically, or maybe hand-built? Tell us more.

[Michael Lavorgna]

Excuse me for butting in here but you appear to be saying that your experience matters and that the more experience you have comparing things, the better.

 

Why is it you feel reviewers, like me, who do this for a living and spend every day comparing things are somehow 'imaging things' or "making things up' when your experience is something of value? And mine is not?

[Michael Lavorgna]

Exactly which other comments.

[sandyk]

It is the same here. And still not a good approach to the truth about things no matter how popular it is. Its entertaining and a good social atmosphere which are all well and good as far as it goes.

 

It's a far better approach than sighted listening, and certainly far more revealing than looking at just measurement statistics that are not able to say exactly how something will sound. There are still a lot of gaps in our present knowledge in auditory matters.

If there weren't gaps, almost every piece of similar types of equipment designed by competent engineers would sound identical.

They don't !

Not everybody is a measurement freak Dennis, neither do they wish to be.

Measurements are useful, but are not the be-all-end -all

[lightminer]

This is great! I haven't thought about recent events for almost an hour.