Your advice please: LPS for wifi routers

[mozes]

Hi everyone, I would like to get your recommendation regarding changing the stock chargers of my wifi routers and replacing them with LPS ones. On the main floor I have an Asus AC3100 router which is the main wifi router for the house. In the basement where my music room is I have an Asus RT-N66U that is set up as a wifi bridge and connects via an ethernet (supra cat8) to my music PC. So do you think it makes sense to use LPS units with both routers or one and which one?

 

P.S. My music PC and Brooklyn Dac are powered by a JS-2 via a custom made cable and I also have an intona followed by RUR which is powered by LPS-1 which is energized by the JS-2.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Moussa

[wgscott]

I don't think it makes any sense for any routers.

[mozes]

I don't think it makes any sense for any routers.

 

I think so too but not 100% sure maybe other CA members experimented with this before

[wgscott]

I remembered this thread and managed to find it with google:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/linear-power-supply-increases-wireless-speed-27439/

[Jud]

I don't think it makes any sense for any routers.

 

Is there a reason why not? (SMPSs aren't any noisier; even if they are they aren't so much noisier it would make an audible difference; even if it could make a difference, a router's power supply isn't in a location in the system where it *will* make a difference; there are better/easier/ cheaper ways to deal with any noise; all of the above...?)

[mozes]

I remembered this thread and managed to find it with google:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/linear-power-supply-increases-wireless-speed-27439/

 

Thanks!

[cjf]

Save your money

[kilroy]

A joke?

[hieukm]

Use LPS with your router in basement. There will be small improvement(1-2%) if your system is good enough to show for it.

 

Reason being:

 

-SMPS Noise can pass through your LAN cable.

-SMPS Noise can kick back to your AC main.

[mozes]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, it seems that it's not worth it

[esldude]

Buy LPS for routers and other gear in the house each side of you and across the street. That SMPS noise goes everywhere. All of you share the same wired connection to the main power lines. Cell phones maintain data connections as low as a few femtowatts (one trillionth of a watt) without a wired connection. Obviously to isolate your gear from unwanted data effects you need levels down in the zeptowatt or yoctowatt levels. You know like a millionth trillionth of a watt or less.

 

If your system is good enough, you will very clearly hear a .2-.5 % improvement in sound quality if you clean up emissions in your part of the neighborhood.

[Jud]

Buy LPS for routers and other gear in the house each side of you and across the street. That SMPS noise goes everywhere. All of you share the same wired connection to the main power lines. Cell phones maintain data connections as low as a few femtowatts (one trillionth of a watt) without a wired connection. Obviously to isolate your gear from unwanted data effects you need levels down in the zeptowatt or yoctowatt levels. You know like a millionth trillionth of a watt or less.

 

If your system is good enough, you will very clearly hear a .2-.5 % improvement in sound quality if you clean up emissions in your part of the neighborhood.

Funny stuff. However, I can tell you with some "noise sniffer"-type circuitry in my system, the noise from two SMPSs - the one powering the router, and (especially) the one powering the laptop - was *very* evident. So the questions I'd have left would be (1) Without the noise sniffer, would the noise be enough to have any audible effect on the music? and (2) If the answer to (1) is yes, what's a good cheap efficient way to get rid of that noise?

 

My *subjective* experience with my own system was yes, I felt the sound was better when I took measures to reduce this noise. But of course such subjective impressions are notoriously unreliable, so take that with a large shaker of salt.

 

Even if it is true that the noise is enough to affect sound quality, I think there are better and reasonably cheap means of stopping the noise than trying an LPS. (LPSs make noise, too, sometimes more of particular types/frequencies than SMPSs.) One way that I employed was to plug the SMPS into a small isolation transformer, https://jet.com/product/detail/d26c5b1b9f8945ca8942fae29489ab75?jcmp=pla:ggl:b_nj_dur_gen_hardware_a1_b1:power_electrical_supplies_voltage_transformers_regulators_a1_other:na:PLA_643021422_30055153462_pla-161921180700:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&gclid=CJHo-NzUlNACFQJNNwodLnIPJg&gclsrc=ds.

[mozes]

Funny stuff. However, I can tell you with some "noise sniffer"-type circuitry in my system, the noise from two SMPSs - the one powering the router, and (especially) the one powering the laptop - was *very* evident. So the questions I'd have left would be (1) Without the noise sniffer, would the noise be enough to have any audible effect on the music? and (2) If the answer to (1) is yes, what's a good cheap efficient way to get rid of that noise?

 

My *subjective* experience with my own system was yes, I felt the sound was better when I took measures to reduce this noise. But of course such subjective impressions are notoriously unreliable, so take that with a large shaker of salt.

 

Even if it is true that the noise is enough to affect sound quality, I think there are better and reasonably cheap means of stopping the noise than trying an LPS. (LPSs make noise, too, sometimes more of particular types/frequencies than SMPSs.) One way that I employed was to plug the SMPS into a small isolation transformer, https://jet.com/product/detail/d26c5b1b9f8945ca8942fae29489ab75?jcmp=pla:ggl:b_nj_dur_gen_hardware_a1_b1:power_electrical_supplies_voltage_transformers_regulators_a1_other:na:PLA_643021422_30055153462_pla-161921180700:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&gclid=CJHo-NzUlNACFQJNNwodLnIPJg&gclsrc=ds.

 

I think I have very low noise in my system, I can't hear anything except for a whisper level hiss when I put my ear next to the tweeters. If there is some inaudible noise that affects the sound then I am not aware of it. The idea of the iso transformer makes more sense as it is more versatile and can solve issues beyond wifi routers only.

[rickca]

One way that I employed was to plug the SMPS into a small isolation transformer

Please help me understand the specs on that B&K unit ... output current 1.25A continuous. Can any SMPS I would normally just plug into a power strip or wall socket be plugged into the B&K unit, or are there restrictions?

 

What made a bigger difference ... putting a network isolator between your router and the micro rendu, or plugging your router's SMPS into the B&K?

[charlesphoto]

Nothing to do with source "noise." Any noise coming from speakers will be most likely from the amp or speaker cables. Naim's (what I have) can be incredibly noisy at the amp/speaker level no matter how noise free the source gets.

 

If you want a small but subtle improvement, I would consider getting a dedicated switch vs router, and then power the switch with an lps (but nothing of an Uptone level required). The Paul pang switch has my eye, but something like a D-Link GS105 is fine (to me sounds better than equivalent Netgear or TP-Link I've used) works fine. Or don't worry about it and buy more music!

 

I think I have very low noise in my system, I can't hear anything except for a whisper level hiss when I put my ear next to the tweeters. If there is some inaudible noise that affects the sound then I am not aware of it. The idea of the iso transformer makes more sense as it is more versatile and can solve issues beyond wifi routers only.

[mozes]

Charles I am trying to avoid the hassle of wiring an ethernet cable to the basement as I have to drill through the main floor and my music room is the end of the house so it is a long twisty journey )

 

Anyway thanks for your suggestion

[Jud]

Please help me understand the specs on that B&K unit ... output current 1.25A continuous. Can any SMPS I would normally just plug into a power strip or wall socket be plugged into the B&K unit, or are there restrictions?

 

What made a bigger difference ... putting a network isolator between your router and the micro rendu, or plugging your router's SMPS into the B&K?

 

I really have no idea about "any SMPS." I would just look at the specs of whatever you want to use.

 

My apologies for not being precise about where I specifically have used the B&K. So far I've plugged my laptop's SMPS and an LPS into my two B&K units, while on the two Ethernet cables from my router I have two used Baaske Ethernet isolators. A Baaske very substantially diminished the noise audible from the router with the "sniffer" in the circuit. Plugging the laptop SMPS into the B&K stopped the remaining noise from the system entirely, even with the "sniffer."

 

At some point I will likely experiment with switching one B&K from the LPS to the router SMPS.

[mozes]

I really have no idea about "any SMPS." I would just look at the specs of whatever you want to use.

 

My apologies for not being precise about where I specifically have used the B&K. So far I've plugged my laptop's SMPS and an LPS into my two B&K units, while on the two Ethernet cables from my router I have two used Baaske Ethernet isolators. A Baaske very substantially diminished the noise audible from the router with the "sniffer" in the circuit. Plugging the laptop SMPS into the B&K stopped the remaining noise from the system entirely, even with the "sniffer."

 

At some point I will likely experiment with switching one B&K from the LPS to the router SMPS.

 

Hi Jud, does the ethernet isolator work with any type of ethernet cable ? I mean does it make a difference if it's cat6/7 or 8?

 

Thanks

Moussa

[rickca]

I really have no idea about "any SMPS." I would just look at the specs of whatever you want to use.

Thanks for the clarification. Specifically, my Asus RT-AC3100 router specs are DC output 19V with max 2.37 A current. So does that mean I couldn't plug my router into the B&K unit you are using? That's what I'm trying to understand.

[mozes]

Thanks for the clarification. Specifically, my Asus RT-AC3100 router specs are DC output 19V with max 2.37 A current. So does that mean I couldn't plug my router into the B&K unit you are using? That's what I'm trying to understand.

 

We have the same router!

[esldude]

Thanks for the clarification. Specifically, my Asus RT-AC3100 router specs are DC output 19V with max 2.37 A current. So does that mean I couldn't plug my router into the B&K unit you are using? That's what I'm trying to understand.

 

Yes, this would work fine with the B&K isolation xfmr. 19v at 2.37 amps is only 45 watts. So the isolator is rated for 1.25 amps at 120 volts. That is 150 watts. The wall wart or whatever of the Asus is likely drawing around .375 amps from the wall plug. It gets converted to lower voltage DC and higher amperage. The two amperages are not directly comparable in this situation.

[Jud]

Hi Jud, does the ethernet isolator work with any type of ethernet cable ? I mean does it make a difference if it's cat6/7 or 8?

 

Thanks

Moussa

Hi Moussa. There are Cat 7 and 8 terminations that are backward compatible if I remember correctly, so of course those would work. If the terminations are not backward compatible, I don't think they would work.

 

Be careful with Cat 7 and 8, because the improvements are in very specific aspects of performance geared toward throughput speeds and lengths that are unlikely to be the case in your home installation, and sometimes improvements in these areas are at the cost of worse performance on items like noise under everyday conditions that are probably more representative of your home environment. See for example Answers to Your Category 8 Cabling Questions » Standards Informant:

 

Interestingly, for every transmission parameter except return loss, ISO/IEC class F_A [Cat 6A] channel and permanent link limits are more severe than those proposed specified for class I and category 8 up to 1 GHz. In the case of internal crosstalk parameters, the differences are significant; with class F_A beating class I and category 8 performance by more than 20 dB!

[mozes]

Hi Moussa. There are Cat 7 and 8 terminations that are backward compatible if I remember correctly, so of course those would work. If the terminations are not backward compatible, I don't think they would work.

 

Be careful with Cat 7 and 8, because the improvements are in very specific aspects of performance geared toward throughput speeds and lengths that are unlikely to be the case in your home installation, and sometimes improvements in these areas are at the cost of worse performance on items like noise under everyday conditions that are probably more representative of your home environment. See for example Answers to Your Category 8 Cabling Questions » Standards Informant:

 

Thanks Jud I will read more about it and will do some experimentation with different ethernet cables to see what works best.