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Discussion of AC mains isolation transformers

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20 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Thanks @One and a half! :)

I already use 3 pair of LT3045s in series in my setup (pre Aries mini: 15v>14,3v 1A, pre ISO Regen: 8v>7v 500mA and pre Aqvox switch-8: 6v>5v 500mA). All the pairs have 0.7-1v drop-down and each are powered by 3 Gophert csp-3205II floating SMPS (0-32v/5.1A max).

It is possible to power all devices with a single Gophert csp-3205II but since Aries Mini requires 14v and Aqvox/BluWave requires 5v the voltage drop-down will be too much if I set the Gophert to 15v and drop-down to 6v at the first LT3045 IMO. I prefer to keep the LT3045s cold rather than hot. Maybe to add this LM317 voltage regulator pre the LT3045s for the Aries Mini?

 

IMG_6744.thumb.JPG.e33ca66506a91dddf1b0697f33626be7.JPG

 

My only problem with this is that the LT3045 sounds much better IMO.

 

Lets see if I get this right with your suggestions? First of all I use 1A LT3045s where needed already (Aries Mini). No need to use them in parallel. With the grounding it almost looks like a JSGT (John Swenson Ground Tweak) at the DC- output of the LT3045s. Correct?

 

I already use DC- output grounding on the Gophert powering my Aqvox switch, but it is connected to the Entreq Minimus grounding box since it sounds much better in my setup. I pressume this is due to the dual floating setup that I use with floating SMPSs connected to a balanced & floating IT? I guess there is simply no 0v reference that is connected directly to the protective earth, so the noise will return back to the setup via the JSGT ground wires.

 

Can you let me know why I should do this instead of connecting everything to a star earth wired power distributor as I do right now? Is´nt my Gopherts already star earthed do you mean?

 

My only problem with changing anything is that it sounds truly great right now. I have been using a single Gophert powering everything before (via a DC terminal strip) and it did´nt sound nearly as as it does right now. 

 

 

 

 

 

The noise will travel back to its source and not to ground. Important to remember this.


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11 minutes ago, One and a half said:

The noise will travel back to its source and not to ground. Important to remember this.

 

I have actually tried various JSGT in my system. Some of them makes the SQ much worse. My understanding while experimenting is that the network switch noises that actually travels via the JSGT ground wires into the other devices via the starpoint connection of the JSGT AC mains plug. Remember that my power distributor is positioned after the IT. My guess is if I connect the plug to the same AC mains wall inlet as my IT the noise will be forced to go through the balanced & floating IT back to the Gophert/Aqvox instead of being speaded around inside the floating walls of my setup. Right now my best option is for sure to connect the JSGT from Gophert to Aqvox switch to the Entreq Minimus grounding box, but I will try to ground it to the AC main wall inlet as soon as I have moved to my new place in February.


       Auralic Aries Mini, Ariston RD40 & Mytek Brooklyn DAC system

          with Fostex TH900 & Gibson Les Paul 8 reference monitors

                    For detailed info see Audio System and About Me

                                  

  Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others. Graucho Marx

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34 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I have actually tried various JSGT in my system. Some of them makes the SQ much worse. My understanding while experimenting is that the network switch noises that actually travels via the JSGT ground wires into the other devices via the starpoint connection of the JSGT AC mains plug. Remember that my power distributor is positioned after the IT. My guess is if I connect the plug to the same AC mains wall inlet as my IT the noise will be forced to go through the balanced & floating IT back to the Gophert/Aqvox instead of being speaded around inside the floating walls of my setup. Right now my best option is for sure to connect the JSGT from Gophert to Aqvox switch to the Entreq Minimus grounding box, but I will try to ground it to the AC main wall inlet as soon as I have moved to my new place in February.

No question, some ground shunts giveth and some taketh away!


nuckleheadaudio.com

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20 hours ago, One and a half said:

On the front end, the isolation transformer will only damp the current pulses from the regenerator.

Far more effective would be to fit it on the output, or as a replacement for the P5. 

Thank you for the reply.  So there is no benefit to supplying the AC regenerator with "clean" power?  

Can you please explain why putting the IT after the P5 or even replacing it would be a good idea if the P5 is already supplying clean power?  What benefit would the IT have in this configuration?

 

It seems at least on paper that the P5 offers some benefit that the IT does not.  From the product page:

Power Plants take your incoming AC power and regenerates new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power. In the process of regeneration any problems on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise are eliminated. 


12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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14 hours ago, tboooe said:

Thank you for the reply.  So there is no benefit to supplying the AC regenerator with "clean" power?  

Can you please explain why putting the IT after the P5 or even replacing it would be a good idea if the P5 is already supplying clean power?  What benefit would the IT have in this configuration?

 

It seems at least on paper that the P5 offers some benefit that the IT does not.  From the product page:

Power Plants take your incoming AC power and regenerates new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power. In the process of regeneration any problems on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise are eliminated. 

You had a quick question and there's the quick answer.

 

Common mode reduction Topaz 140db, P10 80db

Efficiency : Topaz 99% >85% at 1200VA

THD : Topaz : Line dependant, PSAudio <0.5% on the output, what they don't say is the crap it throws back to the mains

Parts count : Topaz 10, P10 Several hundred

Peak voltage input : Topaz 6kV, output mV P10 6kV, let through ?

 

The rest of the product page is marketing embellishment.

 

Why insert after, please Google "Isolation transformer for UPS"

 


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"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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They are already discussed in this thread,right from post 1 on page 1 by John Swenson !


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

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no link to that article on p.1 - don't you have some snake oil to sell?


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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Please read the thread , or use C.A.

Search facility to find plenty more references to this isolation transformer.


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

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Please read the link - I am well aware of this Topaz

 

that isn't the point - read the link

 

the link !!


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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12 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Thanks. I have been on Head-Fi for over 15 years but somehow missed that one. A ton of well thought out and clearly presented information building on and clarifying John Swenson's excellent contributions.

 

It is ironic but I find some of the most helpful, cutting edge, and uncontentious computer audio information on HF these days. This would include linear power supplies, grounding, isolation, Dante/AOIP and USB tweaks. Granted some of the initial exploration starts here but they seem to be more able to collaborate for their mutual benefit.



"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

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Yes, I thought it would make a good addition.  Also good to know about Head-Fi - sounds like there is less trolling there (unlike the 2 above).


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Yes, I thought it would make a good addition.  Also good to know about Head-Fi - sounds like there is less trolling there (unlike the 2 above).

 

Except that one contribute greatly to that Head-Fi thread! ?


       Auralic Aries Mini, Ariston RD40 & Mytek Brooklyn DAC system

          with Fostex TH900 & Gibson Les Paul 8 reference monitors

                    For detailed info see Audio System and About Me

                                  

  Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others. Graucho Marx

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38 minutes ago, sukyung said:

http://used-tools-equipment.com/topaz-ultra-isolator-line-noise-suppressor-91005-31-120-240v-5kva-50-60hz-0005pf/#

input 240v - output 240v - 2400w(5kva)

 

I want to buy a product. What do you think?

 

bryston bdp2 - schiit YGGDRASIL - FREYA - 2 x VIDAR MONO POWER AMPLIFIER - Revel Performa F32

 

220v 60hz

 

Certainly a good price for 5KVA might be overkill. In fact I think that in one of these threads someone recommended that you want to spec the transformer to not be too far over your actual needs. I am running a 1KVA Topaz with probably more current draw than the system you listed and it is barely warm.



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43 minutes ago, sukyung said:

http://used-tools-equipment.com/topaz-ultra-isolator-line-noise-suppressor-91005-31-120-240v-5kva-50-60hz-0005pf/#

input 240v - output 240v - 2400w(5kva)

 

I want to buy a product. What do you think?

 

bryston bdp2 - schiit YGGDRASIL - FREYA - 2 x VIDAR MONO POWER AMPLIFIER - Revel Performa F32

 

220v 60hz

It looks a bit bashed, so the asking price is reasonable.

 

5kVA is physically heavy, the only detraction and it comes unwired. The label says use 90C wiring and rate for 75C. For 5kVA at 230V 21A, a 10, 12AWG or 4mm Teflon (PTFE) cables would work thermally. They won't corrode either. 

On the secondary side, obtaining a cable with PTFE multicores are rare to find and you need to buy 100m :(.  Not many choices other than to run in a steel flexible conduit to a plain distributor with a RCD/GFCI. If you're not a pro, suggest you get one to wire this transformer.


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On 11/28/2017 at 5:54 AM, Ralf11 said:

Yes, I thought it would make a good addition.  Also good to know about Head-Fi - sounds like there is less trolling there (unlike the 2 above).

Spoken from the expert troller.... 

 

The reason the Head-fi thread works is because of collaboration, as opposed to posters who do the reverse.


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2 hours ago, sukyung said:

I want to buy 91002-31 but can not find it.
There is one on ebay, but it is too expensive.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MGE-UPS-91002-31T-Used-Cleaned-Tested-2-year-warranty/232295958593?hash=item3615eb0841:g:Y1cAAOSw-5dZ-7wH

The Topaz/ELGAR/Xentec transformers all can vary in price considerably. Market demands increase the price on rare items.

 

The dopes at Eaton only manufacture new ISO transformers for 60Hz markets. Their loss. Rest of us have to rummage around on the used market.

 

An alternative is to find an Elgar Ultra precision line conditioner. This unit is essentially a UPS without the battery, so the output is regulated despite the input wandering all over the place...however you still need a Topaz unit on its output to remove any residual common mode noise.

 

A new product of this concept is from Accuphase or if you're not that fussed, from PS Audio.

elgar uplc.pdf


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17 hours ago, sukyung said:

I want to buy 91002-31 but can not find it.
There is one on ebay, but it is too expensive.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MGE-UPS-91002-31T-Used-Cleaned-Tested-2-year-warranty/232295958593?hash=item3615eb0841:g:Y1cAAOSw-5dZ-7wH

 

PLCCenter always overprices everything they have.  Wait and keep looking.  A better unit at a much better price will come along. 9_9

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any thoughts on the Panamax M5300-PM ??

 

it is about the same price new as a Topaz and looks to be more convenient to use - I don't see any specs. tho


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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23 hours ago, One and a half said:

It looks a bit bashed, so the asking price is reasonable.

 

5kVA is physically heavy, the only detraction and it comes unwired. The label says use 90C wiring and rate for 75C. For 5kVA at 230V 21A, a 10, 12AWG or 4mm Teflon (PTFE) cables would work thermally. They won't corrode either. 

On the secondary side, obtaining a cable with PTFE multicores are rare to find and you need to buy 100m :(.  Not many choices other than to run in a steel flexible conduit to a plain distributor with a RCD/GFCI. If you're not a pro, suggest you get one to wire this transformer.

Those wire specs are for a continuous load. But our big amplifiers are only interested in very brief high power demands. 

On the other hand these transformers can handle real big brief power demands. So while 5kVA is overkill for most of us, 1kVA may be too small.

If you do get a 3 or 5kVA transformer. Hard wire it as a Separately Derived System with 240V input and 120V output or outputs. With all you hi-fi equipment plugged into the outputs.

 

Separately Derived System is the important part of the whole setup. Don't worry about those silly picofarad ratings.

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1 hour ago, Speedskater said:

Those wire specs are for a continuous load. But our big amplifiers are only interested in very brief high power demands. 

On the other hand these transformers can handle real big brief power demands. So while 5kVA is overkill for most of us, 1kVA may be too small.

If you do get a 3 or 5kVA transformer. Hard wire it as a Separately Derived System with 240V input and 120V output or outputs. With all you hi-fi equipment plugged into the outputs.

 

Separately Derived System is the important part of the whole setup. Don't worry about those silly picofarad ratings.

The reality of what can be found is a compromise of what technically 'will do'. Agreed otherwise in all except for the last sentence.

 

I would any day trade 22.6pA of 60Hz current across the primary to secondary winding for a 0.0005pf Topaz, than 7.2uA for a nominal inter-winding capacitance of 160pf of a standard toroid. This is stray current to earth/ground at 120V, 60Hz.


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