Discussion of AC mains isolation transformers

[austinpop]

<snip>

 

But what I am talking about is the loop that forms through one PS to its DC output through a device (usually the negative, but it can be the positive) through an interconnect,(again usually the ground or shield) (digital or audio) to another device, through ITS power supply and back through the AC line to the first power supply. This is a low impedance loop in normally connected systems, usually less than an ohm through everything.

 

<snip>

 

John S.

 

Hi John,

 

I've been meaning to ask your opinion on this for some time. In any typical chain, there is actually a series of leakage loops. So - assuming you break the last leakage loop that flows through the DAC, which is really what it's all about, how important are leakage loops upstream of that point?

 

Up to this point, I have hewed to the principle of focusing on the last leakage loop, and not worrying as much about anything upstream.

 

Any thoughts or insights?

 

Rajiv

[austinpop]

Goal: Get Tidal to sound as good as local streaming

 

I'm turning my attention back to the goal of achieving SQ parity between identical content streamed from Tidal compared to the same content streamed locally. Right now, Tidal still sounds significantly worse in my setup.

 

I am looking for recommendations vis a vis isolation transformers and other tweaks.

 

Here's the path for streaming:

Data:          NAS-------> wired router------>W10 Roon Core------->modded switch--------->sMS-200--------->tX-USBultra------->DAC

DC PSU:    SMPS------HDPlex-------------- Stock PSU------------- LPS-1 ------------------- LPS-1------------- LPS-1--------------- built-in LPS

AC:             ------APC UPS--------------||-----basic strip-------||---------------------PS Audio P5 AC Regenerator------------------------------------

Circuits:    -------Circuit A ------------- || -----Circuit B ------- || --------------------------- Circuit C ---------------------------------------------------

 

And this is the path for Tidal:

Data:          Modem---> wired router------>W10 Roon Core------->modded switch--------->sMS-200--------->tX-USBultra------->DAC

DC PSU:    ---------- ---HDPlex-------------- Stock PSU------------- LPS-1 ------------------- LPS-1------------- LPS-1--------------- built-in LPS

AC:             ------APC UPS--------------||-----basic strip-------||---------------------PS Audio P5 AC Regenerator------------------------------------

Circuits:    -------Circuit A ------------- || -----Circuit B ------- || --------------------------- Circuit C ---------------------------------------------------

 

Looking at these 2 paths, I don't see anything particularly worse in the Tidal path. My suspicion is that any improvements to be made to improve Tidal (or more generally, remote streaming) are going to be in the area of signal integrity.

 

However in this thread my question is with regard to ITs in particular, and power isolation in general. Let me also stipulate that I don't want to make any changes in Circuit C. I know there are varying opinions on power regenerators vs. ultra-low capacitance IT like the Topaz units. For better or worse, I've embarked down the path of the regeneration, and let me tell you, the improvement I heard there was quite staggering.

 

My questions are therefore limited to Circuits A and B:

1. In circuit A, I was thinking the following:
   • Leave the NAS on the UPS
   • Get an IT like the B&K 1604 plugged to the wall, plug the HDPlex into that
   • Should I get an IT for the NAS?
   • Should I get rid of the UPS for the NAS?
      
2. In circuit B, my Roon Core box is just a stock Dell XPS 8700 desktop with the built in PSU.
   • Should I get a B&K 1604 IT for this location too?

Your thoughts or advice welcomed.

[austinpop]

24 minutes ago, mozes said:

Rajiv, for improving Tidal, I would only consider powering your modem with a good LPS. The rest of the chain is the same for both Tidal and local streaming.

In my system the biggest benefit I got was powering my modem with a LPS. The best was VR Mini but I can't justify that so I am using now an Astron RS-4A which is very close. I attached my diagram for your reference.

 

Im already powering both my modem and router with an HDPlex 100 LPS.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Next you'll need to call up your ISP and start powering their components with a LPS.  LOL, this is why online streaming will never equal data streaming from a personal hard drive.  No loss, who needs online streaming. 

 

I have a large collection of local music, but that doesn't mean I own everything I want to listen to. Of course I want streaming.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, mozes said:

I suggest before you invest in any IT, to try powering your modem (if it's 12V) by a cheapo 12V battery from eBay and see what happens. This will give you a clue on what to expect with 100% isolation. You can can find some for $15-$20

 

Interesting thought. But by the time I get 2 batteries for the router and modem for $40-50, I might as well get a cheap IT for $90, no?

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

@mozes and @austinpop is a network isolator a better first step than an LPS for the modem?  I don't have a network isolator between my router and microRendu yet.

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention a couple of isolators I already have in my path (in italics):

Data:          DC blocker --> Modem---> wired router------>W10 Roon Core--Baaske isolator----->modded switch--------->sMS-200--------->tX-USBultra------->DAC

 

Neither of them made any SQ difference for me.

 

1 hour ago, rickca said:

 

Streaming is important to me.  Since I started using Qobuz, I buy a lot less music to rip.  I've discovered a lot of excellent young classical music performers I'd never heard of before.

 

I wish we got Qobuz in the US!

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Here is my thoughts based on your questions in circuits A & B:

 

1. Use the UPS pre a B&K1604A or similar to deal with both common-mode and differential-mode noise. Add both the NAS and the HDPlex to the B&K 1604A via a good quality ac mains splitter or power strip without filters or surge protection.

 

Thanks for for the suggestions, Micael! My NAS also has a couple of USB external drives hanging off of it, to which I do backups.

 

My suspicion is this collection of NAS + 2 x USB drives, in addition to my modem, router, and a switch will exceed the capacity of the B&K.

 

is there a beefier IT than the B&K that is well liked here?

 

5 hours ago, Cornan said:

2. Yes, you should get a B&K 1604A or similar plus a good quality ac mains cable for the Dell XPS8700 desktop. When that is done you can see if external grounding to the chassi improve things as well.

 

Yup I've been considering this too.

 

5 hours ago, Cornan said:

Other major steps is to use OpenHome for Tidal since it will ensure that you grab the files directly from the source. I am not sure if there is ways for you to do that via Roon though?

 

I am not sure what you mean by OpenHome for Tidal? Roon Core embeds code to invoke Tidal as a client, pull content, and then stream it to Roon Ready endpoints.

 

please clarify.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Try moving the Baaske between the router and W10 Room Core machine.  If that makes a positive difference, get a second one and install it in series next to the first.

 

Hi Larry,

 

I've tried the Baaske in several positions:

- between modem and router

- between NAS and router

- just before the W10 box, and

- between W10 and switch.

 

None made an audible effect at all.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, Duke40 said:

 

 

I too had a similar experience with experimenting with powering modem, I also went crazy  and tried my 12V VR MINI on my modem and it improved my Tidal streaming.

 

Ranking options from best (1) to worst (6) for powering my ISP supplied modem ;

(1) VR MINI

(2) Isolation Transformer > 100W HD-Plex > iFi DC iPurifier

(3) Isolation Transformer > Modem's SMPS > iFi DC iPurifier

(4) Isolation Transformer > 100W HD-Plex > 

(5) Isolation Transformer > Modem's SMPS

(6) Modem's SMPS

 

(1) is clearly the best, option (2) is a close 2nd and is what I am currently doing (though I am thinking of getting a VR MINI for this purpose, maybe later in the year). Both of these provided a significant improvement, that is I did not have to do much critical listening to determine improvements.

Then a continuous decrease in SQ , as I made my way down the list above.

 

Later I got a combined Modem/Router,  D-Link Taipan.

Repeated the options (1) to (6) in the experiments above ... same results.

 

Just wish my Modem/Router only needed 7V (instead of 12V)  and less current , a LPS-1 would be a great low cost tweak to get some isolated super capacitor power.  The VR MINI is more than double the cost, and requires a bit more consideration before going that path for powering the modem, I'll probably do it, though a ISO-Regen & LPS-1 will likely be my next experiment later in June.

TL;DR   I'm very impressed by both companies, UpTone Audio and Vinnie Rossi. 

 

John

 

Thanks, John!

 

it sounds like IT+HDPlex 100W is worth trying.

[austinpop]

59 minutes ago, mozes said:

Great thoughts Cornan and to confirm nothing sounds better than BubbleDS Next with Tidal. It really makes a difference 

 

26 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Here is some info regarding OpenHome or OhMedia: http://support.auralic.com/hc/en-us/articles/206073458-What-is-OpenHome- 

and here http://openhome.org/

and here http://wiki.openhome.org/wiki/OhMediaDevelopers

 

I know that Roon have said that they have OpenHome in the pipeline. Not sure if they have done it already or not though? 

 

 

Hey guys,

 

Yes, I went back and looked at OH. I do understand it's a form of UPnP with extensions. But I get confused with Bubble UPnP, Bubble DS, BubbleDS Next, etc.

 

Could you please clarify exactly:

• for the best sounding case,
  • where does the Tidal client code run? On a server? On the endpoint? On your tablet?
• I've had the Tidal "client" code running on:
  • the endpoint (Aries Mini's Lightning server)
  • on my NAS - BubbleUPnP server
  • on my W10 box - Roon Core
• None of the above sounded different from each other, nor better than local streaming.

 

26 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Tripp-Lite IS-250 is used by many people here on CA http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tripp-Lite-Is-250-Full-Isolation-Transformers-is250-/232086464180  but this is a IT with grounded secondary.

Going through this thread in the beginning will also give you some good suggestions 

 

Thanks, I'll look into it.

[austinpop]

33 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

You´re welcome Rajiv!

I would actually suggest that you try to listen to music with those external drives unplugged. It would´nt surprice me at all if Tidal sounds better without them.

 

The irony is, if it makes a +ve improvement, it will also improve local streaming, so I may achieve better SQ, but not necessarily close the gap between Tidal and local.

 

Ironic!

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Cornan said:

 

The best place for the Tidal client is on the OpenHome control point (ex. Kazoo, BubbleDS Next & LightningDS) which makes it the best solution IME. It is in direct connection to Tidal and pulls the content from Tidals server. 

 

Let me clarify what I mean by Tidal client code. It's the code that invokes Tidal APIs to read the music data stream.

 

In the Lightning DS case, DS is the control app on the iOS device. It does not actually call Tidal directly. It controls the Lightning Server running on the Mini. It's the Lightning Server on the Mini that makes the Tidal API calls.

 

IME this did not sound noticeably better when comparing it with the Roon Core on my W10 box calling Tidal and using the Mini as an endpoint.

 

I don't know the Android world. Do you actually have a case wher Tidal content is streamed directly from a mobile device?

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

How strange!  Maybe you have a bad one.  Both here, and at a friend's, two EMOsystems ITs or Baaskes in series make a huge difference in both Win10 PC's and uRendu setups.

 

That may well be. A local CA'er @limniscate is getting an SOtM ISO-CAT6 isolator, so if I get s chance to borrow it, I'll see if that makes a difference.

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Both the built-in server and the control point needs to be OpenHome compliant for it to work. With OpenHome you will be required to fill in the Tidal account (username & password) in the control point app and not in the server. It will however communicate via the server to get various info, but it is already logged in via the control point AFAIK.

There is a difference in sq between various OpenHome control point. BubbleDS Next souds best IMO, but lately LightningDS is closing in.

 

4 hours ago, mozes said:

@austinpop can you try Tidal with Bubble DS Next streaming to Jplaystreamer? If you haven't tried this approach, I highly recommend that you check it.

This is without doubt the best way Tidal sounds in my system. 

 

Since this probably OT for this thread, let's discuss this in a PM. I don't really understand this configuration. I must be missing something.

 

Will shoot you some questions this evening.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, JoseL said:

Hi,

Would a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet (in place of a proper isolation transformer) be good enough to help isolate several SMPS wall warts (e.g: powering a LPS-1>mRendu combo, a network switch, a HDD, etc)  from the rest of my system?

TIA

https://www.stereophile.com/powerlineaccessories/460/index.html

 

I use a little B&K 1604A IT for exactly this purpose. I find it makes a modest audible improvement. 

 

These are cheap (under $100 on Amazon).

[austinpop]

On 2/1/2018 at 10:41 AM, Jud said:

First, thanks to many people in this thread - John Swenson, Superdad, and especially Speedskater - for assistance and encouragement that allowed me to have a Topaz transformer serving my audio system circuit in my new home.

 

I wanted to post because I thought this tidbit might be interesting: Because the usual electrical inspector for the area had his son's wedding to attend, the chief inspector for the state came out to inspect the electrical installation, including the transformer. While done to the specifications in the (invaluable) Middle Atlantic paper, the installation was sufficiently unfamiliar to the inspector that he required it to be changed so the transformer draws its power from a wall plug rather than the original hard-wired arrangement.

 

"I'm unfamiliar with this setup, so you must be wrong." Sheesh. Sorry you had to deal with that.

 

I know more than one or 2 CA'ers just like your inspector.