dCS Network Bridge

[hltf]

Steve:

May I ask what brand of modem and switch do you use with your DCS NB?  Did you try different ones?  Or do you have a particular recommendation?  I have found that damping my flimsy Verizon provided one makes a decent difference.

 

Related to this I have a Netgear switch on order which I plan to connect to my current Verizon modem.   And I have a  Wireworld Platinum CAT8 cable also on order.  I am trying to figure out whether I should invest in a heavy well built modem too, if there is one that is thought to be a good one.

 

I found I liked Minim Server and Bubble UPNP better than Asset UPNP with the DCS NB.  But I haven't yet tried Roon as I need another iPad.  My current iPad2 works with the DCS NB but not with Roon which needs iPad Air.

 

Thanks

 

[stevebythebay]

The modem is a retail version of a Motorola/Arris Docsis 3 one supported by Comcast.  The switch is a Cisco SG-200 that's plugged into an Eero mesh wifi.  The Cisco is colocated with the audio system, so wiring is short from/to dCS Network Bridge, the NAS and the MacMini.  The idea was to keep the devices from interfering with each other as much as possible.  The cable modem is not wired to the Cisco, but the Eero communicates with another Eero that is wired to another Cisco that is wired to the cable modem.  I never find any problems with WiFi with this mesh network.  I only use an iPad with the Roon app to connect with the Roon core running on the MacMini.  The 3 Ethernet connections are using WireWorld pair of Cat8 (one step down from the Platinum) that connect the NAS and the MacMini to the switch with the Platinum connected to the dCS.  I experimented with using MinimServer on my QNAP NAS in lieu of Roon. However I found it didn't perform as well and the sound was not on par with Roon.

 

Hope that helps.

[stevebythebay]

10 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

 

Did you test a direct bridged connection from you Mac Mini to the dCS? That's a rather great discovery of @romaz, and a very well known tweak on this forum (check the big thread "A novel way to massively...")

When I had the microRendu in the system I did try this and it was slightly better than relying on my switch configuration.  I've not tried it with the dCS as I expect to replace my MacMini with a Roon ROCK based server as soon as the Nucleus hardware starts to appear.

[hltf]

Thanks a lot, Steve. Very helpful.  A lot to think about.

[skyline]

On 8/20/2017 at 11:02 PM, hltf said:

Steve:

May I ask what brand of modem and switch do you use with your DCS NB?  Did you try different ones?  Or do you have a particular recommendation?  I have found that damping my flimsy Verizon provided one makes a decent difference.

 

There's a very good Waversa hub that is a battery operated switch with filters.

 

Once you hear your streaming setup with it, you will never go back.

 

I'm also interested in the DCS bridge, as I don't need USB.

 

Seems like a promising product.

[stevebythebay]

Interesting product but unless I can get one for trial I'll pass. Nobody, it seems, has ever reviewed it and I have to wonder if the "problems" they are claiming to mitigate really need fixing. "Clocking" occurs at all points along the path, it would seem.  And it's part of each Ethernet frame. Error checking is done all along the way ensuring bits out and in correspond, with necessary buffering and control flow, especially with smart switches. So, that's not an issue. I suppose going with battery power might help.  However, I've never heard that electrical issues plague Ethernet devices that are well designed.  Possibly a poor power supply can introduce noise into the audio system, but all such dongles, whether directly or indirectly getting DC  to devices can create issues.  Guess I'll await a review or two. 

[skyline]

On 2/9/2017 at 4:30 AM, r_w said:

Agree... the 'problem' with £24k gear is the gap between £24k and circa £4k has become narrow of late. This hobby has stopped being money driven - cost of system does not automatically suggest better performance how it might have years ago.

The dCS network bridge is right in that sweet spot for value if it sounds as good as, for example, an Aurender N10 via AES-EBU (XLR).

 

I'm in total agreement here. You can get a $4k DAC these days that will compete with $10k+ units.

 

No need to splash all at money, unless you're into Entreq grounding. =)

 

Which is good news for us on the streaming front. The N10 is quite pricey, even used.

[k-man]

3 hours ago, stevebythebay said:

I have to wonder if the "problems" they are claiming to mitigate really need fixing. "Clocking" occurs at all points along the path, it would seem.  And it's part of each Ethernet frame. Error checking is done all along the way ensuring bits out and in correspond, with necessary buffering and control flow, especially with smart switches. So, that's not an issue. I suppose going with battery power might help.  However, I've never heard that electrical issues plague Ethernet devices that are well designed.

I am in no way endorsing the Waversa hub and their claims, but I think there maybe more to discover with ethernet transmission. We all thought and been told of the 'perfect' asynchronous USB transmission for many years, only just to find some groundbreaking products surface recently. I don't want to disagree with anything you said, since this is all I have to play with (Mac to router, wifi extender, ethernet isolator, network player), but I will be open to engineers to provide some answers to what can be fixed in ethernet once more products like the network bridge and Ravenna overtake USB based computers in the coming years.

[stevebythebay]

Agree that there's certainly more to discover.  Just updated the firmware on my DAC so it now can do MQA, but also got a significant sonic bump in performance for PCM.  And that from the guys who delivered the Pacific Microsonics product.  

 

As for Ethernet, I've done testing with different cable company's designs and there are differences.  Some likely due to quality of materials, connectors, and even how the individual "lines" of data transfer are laid out.  Stuff is in the realm of electrical noise and just how the bits arrive (either taxing the sending/receiving devices in managing things and getting everything to the software players).  

 

Seems this is a never ending horse race with one overtaking another - and even new horses entering the race!

[AmusedToD]

On 1.8.2017. at 9:01 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Have them all but haven't done a comparison.

 

Did you manage to compare the UltraRendu to the dCS NB?

[mikicasellas]

I am waiting for that comparison too!

 

 

 

[AmusedToD]

I placed an order for the dCS NB. A blind buy, but hopefully the right choice. It ticks all the boxes for me: 

 

1. Roon endpoint 

2. High quality internal linear PSU 

3. High quality construction 

4. The performance can be upgraded via an external clocking device at a later stage (perhaps even with the upcoming SOTM master clock if it proves to be compatible)

5. USB output with a firmware upgrade 

 

I couldn't care less about DSD512 or similar gimicks, redbook and a few hi res 24/192 files are all I care about.

 

I will report how it fares against the SOTM sms200Ultra next week.

[k-man]

@AmusedToD Where did you get the information about no. 2, i.e. Internal Linear PSU? I understand if it had something along the lines of 'discrete linear regulators'. But usually dCS have their units powered by well designed SMPS. I only know of the Sonore Sig Rendu having the internal Linear PSU.

[stevebythebay]

11 minutes ago, k-man said:

@AmusedToD Where did you get the information about no. 2, i.e. Internal Linear PSU? I understand if it had something along the lines of 'discrete linear regulators'. But usually dCS have their units powered by well designed SMPS. I only know of the Sonore Sig Rendu having the internal Linear PSU.

Not exactly the "horses mouth" but in http://highfidelity.pl/@main-759&lang=en it states:

"...The Stream Unlimited module is plugged in the main PCB prepared by dCS. This arrangement provides several additional possibilities: the signal is additionally clocked, there is also a multi-stage linear power supply, isolating the digital section and the oscillators. This large PCB features the above mentioned FPGA, as well as two beautiful oscillators, mechanically compensated and temperature controlled (they have their own "heating" that stabilizes their temperature)."

[k-man]

Thanks @stevebythebay for the clarification on source. I read that review sometime ago too.

With the key features on the dCS site the Network bridge has:

• Multi-stage power regulation isolates digital and sensitive clock circuitry.

This didn't strike me as being Linear. I don't want to make any issue with dCS design choices. Every component I own has an in-built SMPS, but I know CA members would look on the Linear supply as beneficial.

It played into my mind the tear down of the @Vinnie Rossi Mini Pure PSU and an outcry when an SMPS was powering the circuitry. I still believe the importance of isolation in these next generation devices.

[AmusedToD]

49 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Not exactly the "horses mouth" but in http://highfidelity.pl/@main-759&lang=en it states:

"...The Stream Unlimited module is plugged in the main PCB prepared by dCS. This arrangement provides several additional possibilities: the signal is additionally clocked, there is also a multi-stage linear power supply, isolating the digital section and the oscillators. This large PCB features the above mentioned FPGA, as well as two beautiful oscillators, mechanically compensated and temperature controlled (they have their own "heating" that stabilizes their temperature)."

 

Thank you, Steve. Yes, this review is exactly where I read about the linear PSU.

 

There is another review that says:

 

The Stream Unlimited module is plugged in the main PCB prepared by dCS. This arrangement provides several additional possibilities: the signal is additionally clocked, there is also a multi-stage linear power supply, isolating the digital section and the oscillators. This large PCB features the above mentioned FPGA, as well as two beautiful oscillators, mechanically compensated and temperature controlled (they have their own "heating" that stabilizes their temperature).

 

http://highfidelity.pl/@main-759&lang=en

 

This is also interesting (the making of the dCS NB): http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/10/making-dcs-network-bridge.html?m=1

 

 

 

[cjf]

Nice product, I see one in my future very soon.

 

Two questions though for current owners:

 

1. Does DCS offer a Control APP for Android devices?

2. Can you configure all the same settings that the APP offers via the built-in Web Interface if by chance an APP isn't available for Android?

 

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide

[hltf]

On 8/24/2017 at 9:38 AM, skyline said:

 

There's a very good Waversa hub that is a battery operated switch with filters.

 

Once you hear your streaming setup with it, you will never go back.

 

I'm also interested in the DCS bridge, as I don't need USB.

 

Seems like a promising product.

Thanks skyline.  I might look into this at some point or one of the things I mention below.  Based on what I heard from Steve above, I ended up getting: (1) an Airport Extreme as router that is fed by Verizon FIOS modem, and (2) a 5-port Netgear switch that is fed by the Apple Extreme and from which I have a single lead going into my Network Bridge.  This setup sounds very good.

 

I have one of the Wireworld Cat 8 going into the NB and three lengths of Blue Jeans 6A cable for the other ethernet connections in my system.  The Wireworld was certainly a nice step up from the 5e cable I was using before.  I am wondering whether I should eventually upgrade to WW Cat 8 everywhere, or get 1 or 2 Acoustic Revive isolators, or leave it all as is. 

 

Thanks for the details Steve.  It helped clarify what I needed to do.

[skyline]

On August 24, 2017 at 11:30 AM, stevebythebay said:

However, I've never heard that electrical issues plague Ethernet devices that are well designed.  Possibly a poor power supply can introduce noise into the audio system, but all such dongles, whether directly or indirectly getting DC  to devices can create issues.  

 

I was already powering my Netgear modem/router combo with an Uptone JS-2 and a very good power cord that filters RFI/EMI.

 

However, when I found a TP Link modem/router that could be powered by an Uptone LPS-1, the noise floor dropped again, along with a lot of grunge.

 

The LPS-1 power supply is completely off the grid with it's dual capacitor bank design (it only outputs 1.1 amps, so it was a challenge to find a modem/router combo box that could be powered by it).

 

I'm not sure why there is so much noise riding the modem/router,  but all of the power upgrades (and Waversa hub) have made a significant difference.

 

The point is, there's quite of bit of network optimization and gains to be made, even before adding an uber streamer like the DCS.

[hltf]

Skyline, I stuck a bunch of Stillpoints ERS paper around my modem/router/switch and connectors to address RFI/EMI, and physically isolated it as best I could with various Herbie's materials plus some Walker discs and a lot of caulking material.  I wrapped some ERS paper around the various SMPS boxes of the DC power cables for these units.  I also send power to my modem + router + switch from my balanced power isolator which also helps. One issue for me is that I discovered that I am limited to using only Verizon supplied Fiberoptic modems and these need as much as 3 amps at 12 volts.  So my best bet is likely to be another power supply than the LPS-1.  Over time I plan to dig around.  Some of those IFI purifiers for might be good too, although I am not sure how well they work though relative to a separate power supply.

[hltf]

On 8/25/2017 at 8:15 PM, cjf said:

Nice product, I see one in my future very soon.

 

Two questions though for current owners:

 

1. Does DCS offer a Control APP for Android devices?

2. Can you configure all the same settings that the APP offers via the built-in Web Interface if by chance an APP isn't available for Android?

 

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide

cjf, I don't believe you can use an android with the DCS Network App. In fact you can't use a MacBook either at least yet.  However, as Steve said above, Roon is probably a much better way to drive the DCS NB.  I might switch to that in the weeks ahead as the DCS app is a bit buggy anyway and Roon is a very attractive sounding option.  Though Roon does cost some additional money of course.  In the meantime I am just getting used to the NB myself.  It is a very nice step up from my previous USB based set up.

[cjf]

On 8/27/2017 at 10:36 PM, hltf said:

cjf, I don't believe you can use an android with the DCS Network App. In fact you can't use a MacBook either at least yet.  However, as Steve said above, Roon is probably a much better way to drive the DCS NB.  I might switch to that in the weeks ahead as the DCS app is a bit buggy anyway and Roon is a very attractive sounding option.  Though Roon does cost some additional money of course.  In the meantime I am just getting used to the NB myself.  It is a very nice step up from my previous USB based set up.

Hello and thanks for the reply.

 

I guess my main concern with maybe not having access to the APP while using an Android was whether or not you can still configure the DCS box features in some other way without the use of the APP? I see mention of a Web interface but I am unclear if that provides all the same functionality as far as configuration goes.

[stevebythebay]

5 minutes ago, cjf said:

Hello and thanks for the reply.

 

I guess my main concern with maybe not having access to the APP while using an Android was whether or not you can still configure the DCS box features in some other way without the use of the APP? I see mention of a Web interface but I am unclear if that provides all the same functionality as far as configuration goes.

Been checking the use of a browser for the dCS NB and though there are some settings for the network, many other settings appear to be missing.  Maybe there's some way to get to them. But I'm not seeing how. Best to send an email via the web site https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/product-support/contact/ to get a definitive answer. 

[cjf]

6 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Been checking the use of a browser for the dCS NB and though there are some settings for the network, many other settings appear to be missing.  Maybe there's some way to get to them. But I'm not seeing how. Best to send an email via the web site https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/product-support/contact/ to get a definitive answer. 

Thanks for the confirmation

[hltf]

Yes, as Steve said earlier, I too have found that Roon has much better playback sound quality than BubbleServer UPNP/MinimServer on my MacMini server.  And it is really great for its own meta data and smooth user interface.   Very worth while.

 

However, I am experiencing some persistent connection issues that seem specfic to my Roon, Mac and DCS NB set-up for which I would much appreciate any tips from anyone who knows anything about this.  I have set up my MacMini as Roon Core with an external HD holding all my music. I control Roon via a MacBook Air.  Roon keeps dropping the connection to the DCS Network Bridge. I do manage to get it started again. Sometimes it just starts up again when I press the Play button without doing anything else. But at other times it only comes back after I try several things like switching off the DCS Network Bridge or rebooting my MacMini core or shutting down Roon etc. The error messages that Roon gives are: "Roon lost control of the audio device" or "Failed to select Roon as the current source". 

 

The MacMini is wired by ethernet cable to an Airport Express. The DCS NB is also wired by cable to the same Airport Express. The MacBook AirRoon control communicates with everything on my my LAN including the MacMini and the DCS Network Bridge over WiFi.