dCS Network Bridge

[Hipper]

I'm interested in the Network Bridge to use between a computer and a fourteen year old TEAC D/70 DAC, which has dual AES inputs and two word sync outputs.

 

The computer is Windows 8 and I use JRiver for storing and playing WAV files only (at the moment anyway). At the moment it is used on a headphone system using the USB out.

 

Currently I use a CD Transport going into a digital equaliser (Behringer DEQ2496) then the D/70, and on to a power amp. With JRiver I can use its DSP Studio to replace the Behringer. EQ is an essential part of my set up which I insist on.

 

From reading the manual I assume the Ethernet in option is for me. So it would be computer (via Ethernet) to Network Bridge (via dual AES plus word sync) to D/70.

 

I don't have an Ipad or similar. I control the computer by mouse and monitor but am looking at using a portable touch screen instead.

 

My questions are:

 

1. Is this feasible?

 

2. What should I look for in Ethernet cables?

 

3. Can JRiver still be used in this situation? If not, how can I get some DSP (mostly separate channel Parametric EQ, but Ideally a Graphic EQ too) into the system?

[Patatorz]

Hello, 

 

you can not link directly your pc and the network bridge as the network bridge does not have a double bridged Ethernet like Innuos or melco. It means that your PC and the NB should be on the same network by Ethernet or WiFi (you probably need an Ethernet switch or router or...) somewhere in your system.

 

Ethernet cables : no recommendation from my side. Probably you could,find interesting thread on CA.

 

As the NB is supporting UPnP it should be visible in Jriver and could be used without any difficulty as a player.

 

Hope it helps.

[Hipper]

4 hours ago, Patatorz said:

Hello, 

 

you can not link directly your pc and the network bridge as the network bridge does not have a double bridged Ethernet like Innuos or melco. It means that your PC and the NB should be on the same network by Ethernet or WiFi (you probably need an Ethernet switch or router or...) somewhere in your system.

 

Ethernet cables : no recommendation from my side. Probably you could,find interesting thread on CA.

 

As the NB is supporting UPnP it should be visible in Jriver and could be used without any difficulty as a player.

 

Hope it helps.

Thank you.

 

Ethernet Switch. You mean something like this:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-GS105UK-Gigabit-Unmanaged-Ethernet/dp/B0000E5SEQ/ref=sr_1_18_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1535016525&sr=8-18-spons&keywords=ethernet+switch+2+port&psc=1

 

PC>ethernet switch>Network Bridge using two Ethernet cables?

 

 

[Patatorz]

Yes 

[Cebolla]

On 8/22/2018 at 3:57 PM, Hipper said:

My questions are:

 

1. Is this feasible?

 

2. What should I look for in Ethernet cables?

 

3. Can JRiver still be used in this situation? If not, how can I get some DSP (mostly separate channel Parametric EQ, but Ideally a Graphic EQ too) into the system?

 

Agree with @Patatorz, plus bear in mind that the dCS Network Bridge currently has an issue supporting gapless playback when used as a UPnP renderer. So, this will include when it is being used for UPnP network streaming with JRiver.

 

If you cannot be without gapless playback, then consider using foobar2000 with the Network Bridge instead of JRiver. For UPnP network streaming, the foo_out_upnp plugin sends foobar2000's actual audio output stream, rather than the discrete WAV files in the playlist normally sent by a UPnP media server. This mitigates the need for the Network Bridge's UPnP renderer to support gapless playback.

[Patatorz]

I’m using minimserver in upnp and did not detect any gapless problem. 

 

I think I read that dCS recognize this gapless problem but as I never experienced it, is there a clear description of this problem (renderer, server, etc...) ?

[Cebolla]

It only really becomes a problem to those that find the lack of gapless support annoying, ie, where the listener's particular playlist of audio file tracks are supposed to segue into each other (eg some classical music albums, some progressive rock/concept albums, some live music albums, some dance mix music, etc) and instead you get an unwanted 1-2 second 'gap' or silence between the tracks. One of the most often mentioned examples of an album containing gapless tracks is Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon.

 

Under standard UPnP streaming, gapless support is (unfortunately for those that want it) optional and is provided as an interaction only between the UPnP control point and the UPnP renderer. So the UPnP media server that is being used, such as MinimServer, is actually irrelevant for gapless support. A well known example of a UPnP control point that supports gapless playback is the BubbleUPnP Android app.

 

When you say that you "did not detect any gapless problem"  & "never experienced it", are you saying that generally speaking if an album is meant to have some gapless tracks and the UPnP renderer makes those tracks artificially 'gappy', you are fine with that?

Or, are you saying that you actually got the dCS Network Bridge to UPnP stream & play some tracks that you know to be gapless and that you didn't notice anything wrong with them, ie, as far as you could tell they played gaplessly?

[Chiong]

For me, I still have gapless issue with the combination of BubbleUPnP + Netwrok Bridge. I tried flac files of various compression levels and wav file too, all of them experienced 0.5 to 1 second gap.

[Patatorz]

7 hours ago, Cebolla said:

When you say that you "did not detect any gapless problem"  & "never experienced it", are you saying that generally speaking if an album is meant to have some gapless tracks and the UPnP renderer makes those tracks artificially 'gappy', you are fine with that?

Or, are you saying that you actually got the dCS Network Bridge to UPnP stream & play some tracks that you know to be gapless and that you didn't notice anything wrong with them, ie, as far as you could tell they played gaplessly?

Thanks Cebolla, I know perfectly well what gapless should be. This problem was new to me as when I listen to a gapless album (live bootleg, dark side of the moon as you mention,etc...) I never had any gapless problem. I checked few times after one people was highlighting this problem on this board. I use minimserver from server side with bubbleupnpserver to change the upnp renderer in openhome renderer to support playlists and « gapless » and at least I use the LUMIN app as control point on iOS. I play only flac

i can perfectly admit that I missed something. 

I was trying to understand if this gapless problem is appearing every time or in specific case and if the support clearly identified the root cause.

 

thanks 

[Cebolla]

Very interesting, two conflicting observations (thanks @Chiong & @Patatorz)

 

Unfortunately, I don't have the dCS Network Bridge so I cannot test for myself. I would not have mentioned the lack of gapless support issue had I not been told so in a very recent post, by none other than dCS's Programme Manager for streaming audio, @AMP!

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/46611-official-qobuz-issues-thread/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-861128

On 8/11/2018 at 6:21 PM, AMP said:

None of our products advertise support for NextAVTransportURI. The state variable is specifically set as NOT_IMPLEMENTED. As such gapless playback for any third-party UPnP control point will not work.

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Patatorz said:

I use minimserver from server side with bubbleupnpserver to change the upnp renderer in openhome renderer to support playlists and « gapless » and at least I use the LUMIN app as control point on iOS. I play only flac

BubbleUPnP Server's created OpenHome renderer is actually a clever bit of code that 'fools' OpenHome control points, like the Lumin app, into thinking they are controlling a real OpenHome renderer.

 

In reality it is a bridge between the normally incompatible OpenHome (aka UPnP with Linn extensions) & standard UPnP streaming systems and contains a standard UPnP control point, which is what is actually controlling the standard UPnP renderer it was created for. In effect it is translating OpenHome control point commands into standard UPnP control point commands, including the implementation of gapless playback support (when its Gapless playback option has been set).

 

So clearly, with a non-dCS/third-party UPnP control point being used by the BubbleUPnP Server's created OpenHome 'renderer' to control the dCS Network Bridge's UPnP renderer, according to @AMP, gapless playback should not work.

 

Is it possible that you are somehow using a version (maybe older?) of the Network Bridge's firmware that does support gapless playback when used with third-party UPnP control points?

[Patatorz]

No I have the latest firmware. I would have more time this week to make more tests (except Jriver that I would not reinstall). I will pay attention to the files format and setup.

 

Any albums/files to recommend to test the gapless ?

 

I had few renderers at home (3dlab nano, belcanto refStream, trinnov amethyst, amaremusica, sonore microrendu etc..) and every time in BubbleUpnp Server I was able to select the gapless support. I went through all the references you gave, but it sure to understand all the technical coding functionalities ?

 

Thanks to have taken time  to collect/consolidate all information.

[Gordian]

you can try this, an absolute nighmare when gapless is not implemented

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Patatorz]

All my apologies, just checked gapless with Lumin app/BubbleUPnP server/Minimserver (neither with Qobuz in streaming). Gapless does not work properly.

No problem with the dCS application neither Roon. 

 

I missed something in previous tests.

 

[Tadders]

Hi all,

 

My DCS Network Bridge is on order and I’m thinking about a Master Clock.

 

If you put a Master clock signal to the Bridge word clock in, is the Bridge word clock out the Master clock or the Bridge internal clock?

 

thanks

 

P

[Pedro Romão]

1 hour ago, Tadders said:

Hi all,

 

My DCS Network Bridge is on order and I’m thinking about a Master Clock.

 

If you put a Master clock signal to the Bridge word clock in, is the Bridge word clock out the Master clock or the Bridge internal clock?

 

thanks

 

P

I have a Network Bridge and tested clock in and clock out to a friend’s  Scarlatti Stack.

Guess what - we both preferred the clock out from the Network Bridge, so test before buy.

[Tadders]

41 minutes ago, Pedro Romão said:

I have a Network Bridge and tested clock in and clock out to a friend’s  Scarlatti Stack.

Guess what - we both preferred the clock out from the Network Bridge, so test before buy.

Thanks Pedro!

 

I had a Bridge and Rossini clock on loan for a weekend.  44.1 khz and 48 khz Rossini clock outputs to Bridge and Bridge clock out to Purcell Upsampler.  Upsampler outputs DSD to Delius DAC.  No clock to Delius DAC

 

Best sound for me was with Rossini Master clock on with dither on.

 

I wonder whether the Bridge, Upsampler and DAC clocks should come from a single Master clock.

 

P

[Cooler]

5 hours ago, Pedro Romão said:

Guess what - we both preferred the clock out from the Network Bridge, so test before buy.

I checked the back of NB, there is only word clock in on the back. Do you mean, that bridge was controlling and provided workclock via AES connection. I am new to this topic, can you explain a little bit more detailed, how it works!?

[Pedro Romão]

Simple. Connect the SDIF 2 -  OUT of the dCS to WCLOCK IN of the DAC.

 

 

[Tadders]

1 hour ago, Cooler said:

I checked the back of NB, there is only word clock in on the back. Do you mean, that bridge was controlling and provided workclock via AES connection. I am new to this topic, can you explain a little bit more detailed, how it works!?

Pedro is right, SDIF 2 out is the Bridge word clock out at an integer multiple (I think) of the streamed music rate.

[xtraktz]

Hi Everybody

 

1. What will bring the new NB firmware and when will it be released?
2. How to correctly use NB with Debussy DAC for best performance?

[xtraktz]

Anybody here ? ))

@AMP   

1. What settings need to be set in the dCS app, to use Dual AES connection properly?

Now I have NB connected to Debussy with 2 AES XLR cables (oyaide AR-910)

 

2. What does Dual AES connection give me in addition to the DSD128?

 

3. Should I need set Debussy's input AES1/AES2 (one blue light) or Dual AES (with two blue lights)

 

4. Should I use BNC cable for sync NB with Debussy? Is this necessary only for Dual AES connection or for single AES too? 

 

5. Does it require some additional settings or simply connect the BNC cable?

 

NB main board 1.00, NB version 375, app 1.4.8

Debussy 2.30

 

Thanks

 

 

[AmusedToD]

27 minutes ago, xtraktz said:

Anybody here ? ))

@AMP   

1. What settings need to be set in the dCS app, to use Dual AES connection properly?

Now I have NB connected to Debussy with 2 AES XLR cables (oyaide AR-910)

 

2. What does Dual AES connection give me in addition to the DSD128?

 

3. Should I need set Debussy's input AES1/AES2 (one blue light) or Dual AES (with two blue lights)

 

4. Should I use BNC cable for sync NB with Debussy? Is this necessary only for Dual AES connection or for single AES too? 

 

5. Does it require some additional settings or simply connect the BNC cable?

 

NB main board 1.00, NB version 375, app 1.4.8

Debussy 2.30

 

Thanks

 

 

 

The dual AES connection (in addition to the word clock connection between your devices) will primarily give you less jitter, which translates to higher sound quality. The dual AES will also give you DXD (up to 24/384). Yes, you should use a BNC-BNC digital cable for the clock connection and set your Debussy to slave mode so that it can pick up the clocking data from the Network Bridge. Regarding your other questions, somebody else might be able to help you, I sold my gear so this is from memory only.

 

Please note that the quality of both the AES/EBU and the BNC cables will dramatically effect the sound quality your are getting!

[murrayp]

Hi,

hopefully I'm not covering old ground but I admit I didn't read all 33 pages :o)

 

I have a NWB, and am streaming to it by UPnP from the Qobuz desktop app.  Sound is great, but if I play an album it stalls after each track. When I click on the next track, it starts but plays to the computer, rather than to the UPnP output (NWB).  If I jump to the next track while still playing, it will jump ok.  I have the UPnP point specified as my preferred output.  Any Ideas how to fix this?

 

The Qobuz app does note this as Beta, so I guess it is something that will be overcome.  The sound is remarkably good - equal to Roon I think.  The app is also pretty intuitive and is the first app I've come across that might entice me away from my own files.......

[rickca]

16 minutes ago, murrayp said:

it stalls after each track

Similar behavior has been reported with a variety of UPnP streamers (not just Network Bridge).  The UPnP feature of the Qobuz desktop app is not ready for prime time.  Qobuz is continuing to work on it.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/46611-official-qobuz-issues-thread/?do=findComment&comment=860486

 

[murrayp]

Thanks Rickca.  Hadn't spotted that interesting thread.