dCS Network Bridge

[Chiong]

21 hours ago, AMP said:

 

Thanks for mentioning this. Gapless was working with third-party apps, but it looks like a change made last year had an unintended side-effect. I've replicated the issue and created a bug report for it. We'll address it during our maintenance update project which is starting this summer.

 

I am looking forward to this update. That will be very helpful.

 

21 hours ago, AMP said:

 

Are you saying that one device loses the ability to interact with the bridge, but you can still connect to it and operate it with a different app? If this happens and you re-boot the bridge are you able to reconnect and have the original device function normally?

 

Yes. The music keeps playing but app loses control. It occurs now and then and I also cannot replicate it. I will try to reboot NB to see if it works. Thanks.

 

 

21 hours ago, AMP said:

In general, if the app starts acting up then rebooting the bridge tends to resolve the issue. I haven't seen a problem like this in a long time, though.

 

One more request: when searching local music in Minimserver, is it possible to show the complete search result list instead of showing only about 70 in current app? Is there any potential concern that the app might not deal well with it?

[mecani]

the use of the application dcs with the network bridge is a real torment, very often
Let's hope a update that solves this problem

[Patatorz]

As i’m On Roon, i most of the time don’t use the dCS application. I just use it for fw upgrade and hw settings. If I need to use qobuz or tidal streaming I use the LUMIN application with no bug.

[mecani]

Can you control the network bridge with the lumin application?

[Patatorz]

As far as dCS network bridge is upnp: yes. Works also with Linn Kazoo, mconnect etc...

if you want to stream you need to install bubbleupnp server on your network in order to transform you dCS as an open home compatible renderer.

[Miska]

On 5/27/2018 at 1:46 PM, Patatorz said:

if you want to stream you need to install bubbleupnp server on your network in order to transform you dCS as an open home compatible renderer.

 

Hmmh, what does OpenHome have to do with streaming?

[Patatorz]

Hummmm....If you want to be able to stream qobuz or tidal with app like Linn Kazoo or Lumin, your renderer needs to be OpenHome compatible. Bubleupnpserver is turning your UPnP renderer into OpenHome and enable qobuz streaming as example but brings also additional benefits linked to OpenHome like playlists.  So it is not only OpenHome but openhome,with the app.

If you have another idea to stream qobuz with a dCS, feel free to share (we can talk also about LMS and upnp renderer visible inside LMS...)

[Miska]

3 hours ago, Patatorz said:

Hummmm....If you want to be able to stream qobuz or tidal with app like Linn Kazoo or Lumin, your renderer needs to be OpenHome compatible. Bubleupnpserver is turning your UPnP renderer into OpenHome and enable qobuz streaming as example but brings also additional benefits linked to OpenHome like playlists.  So it is not only OpenHome but openhome,with the app.

If you have another idea to stream qobuz with a dCS, feel free to share (we can talk also about LMS and upnp renderer visible inside LMS...)

 

That is restriction of the Control Point app. Practically only difference OpenHome makes on top of UPnP is where the playlist resides.

 

For example Tidal streaming works with any FLAC compliant UPnP Renderer, as long as you have a Control Point that can send the content URI to the device. I've been using the BubbleUPnP Android app (without BubbleUPnP Server). But any other UPnP Control Point that supports Tidal or Qobuz will work too. This is all completely unrelated to OpenHome.

 

[Miska]

Just tested and Tidal with mconnect Player iOS app seems to work to a standard UPnP Renderer too. (had to fight a little to get mconnect switch to Tidal HIFI by default it was trying to send MP3 stream)

 

[Patatorz]

You are right mconnect should be the only app that allows Qobuz/tidal for upnp renderers

[Miska]

2 minutes ago, Patatorz said:

You are right mconnect should be the only app that allows Qobuz/tidal for upnp renderers

 

BubbleUPnP Android app also works.

 

But I guess those are the only UPnP Control Point apps that support Tidal/Qobuz services in first place. But again, this is not related to UPnP or OpenHome, only to support for such services in first place (authentication, browsing content, etc).

 

These services and internet radios stream standard media content over standard HTTP protocol, and UPnP (and Chromecast) are based on HTTP. So Renderer doesn't need to have any understanding about the service.

 

[Beolab]

mCONNECT player ( Full version ) can play MQA files , but cannot unfold them, but maybe a FW update will fix this. 

 

Other than that the mConnect got slight, slight better sound than the dCS App in my opinion. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

You’re suggesting the control app changes the sound, just like saying your TV remote changes the image?

 

No music flows through the app. 

[Beolab]

21 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You’re suggesting the control app changes the sound, just like saying your TV remote changes the image?

 

No music flows through the app. 

 

Hehe it is not that simple, the digital volume control passing through both the mconnect and the dCS NB app , but i am afraid the the NB App does not realy passing through the signal correct even if its on 100% as the mConnect volume does, so the NB app sounds slightly more dull in my opinion, it is not a huge diffrence, but something differ, try for yourself insted. 

[Patatorz]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

BubbleUPnP Android app also works.

 

But I guess those are the only UPnP Control Point apps that support Tidal/Qobuz services in first place. But again, this is not related to UPnP or OpenHome, only to support for such services in first place (authentication, browsing content, etc).

 

These services and internet radios stream standard media content over standard HTTP protocol, and UPnP (and Chromecast) are based on HTTP. So Renderer doesn't need to have any understanding about the service.

 

I’m not sure to catch what you want to demonstrate. Nobody told you that the renderer needs to be OpenHome in order to stream http protocol.

Till mconnect the only way of streaming Qobuz was to use :

1/ applications like Lumin and Kazoo. In order these applications allow them connexion to qobuz and tidal for streaming, the renderer needs to be OpenHome (OpenHome as you know is just an enrichment of UPnP). The only way to make the renderer compatible OpenHome is to use if you want, bubbleupnp or Bubbleupnpserver.

2/ use a lms server with UPnP functionality and qobuz / tidal plugins.

 

it was the only way to have cope with slow development or interest of renderer manufacturer to make their renderer open to these 2 streaming services. 

 

After that hat you have a lot of possibilities like using assetupnp instead of minimserver to have a TuneIn capabilities to stream internet radio through UPnP..you can also put your radios in a playlist...lot of solutions

 

renderer is nice but without a good control point and server, you have no service

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Beolab said:

 

Hehe it is not that simple, the digital volume control passing through both the mconnect and the dCS NB app , but i am afraid the the NB App does not realy passing through the signal correct even if its on 100% as the mConnect volume does, so the NB app sounds slightly more dull in my opinion, it is not a huge diffrence, but something differ, try for yourself insted. 

Hi Beolab - I'm not an objectivist, but this doesn't make sense to me. The app only controls volume on the device, nothing is routed through the app. For example, the app only sends a volume command to the device to raise or lower attenuation. 

 

Perhaps I don't understand how this one works?

[Patatorz]

2 hours ago, Beolab said:

 

Hehe it is not that simple, the digital volume control passing through both the mconnect and the dCS NB app , but i am afraid the the NB App does not realy passing through the signal correct even if its on 100% as the mConnect volume does, so the NB app sounds slightly more dull in my opinion, it is not a huge diffrence, but something differ, try for yourself insted. 

Hi Beolab,

 

i’m Also confused not only because I had a lot of bad experience with digital volume till I heard the « Leedh  processing » but because I’m not sure to catch what you want to say.  What I have in mind is that the control point (mconnect and nb applications) in this case are just sending information about volume to the renderer that operate in the digital area and it is the renderer that is managing the volume output. So, as far as I understand, if the output volume in dB is the same, I don’t see how an app could influence the sound. Thanks to help to understand ?

[The Computer Audiophile]

My understanding is the control point works just like a TV remote control. 

[Patatorz]

Like me...

[AMP]

There are three components to UPnP audio playback:

 

Server

This device indexes the music files and presents a catalog of those files to the network. This is where the "view" that you see (artist, album, genre, etc) is generated. The server also provides a standardized method of access to the music files via HTTP.

 

Control Point

The control point understands how to query the network for other UPnP devices and how to issue a standard set of commands to those devices. The control point provides the user interface to finding music, playing it, and controlling the playback device.

 

Renderer

The renderer receives and executes commands from the control point. These can be playback related (load file and play it) or device control related (adjust volume, power, etc).

 

In a typical playback session the flow looks like this:

 

The user browses the contents of the server using the control point (communication is between control point and server). When a particular file is selected for playback the control point contacts the selected renderer and instructs it to playback the file. The command to the renderer includes a URL (provided by the server) and at that point the renderer contacts the server directly and loads the file at that URL. While playback is taking place the control point maintains contact with the renderer for status updates (playback position) and if a subsequent track is in the queue to be played the control point provides this file URL to the renderer toward the end of the current file and says, "here, play this one next."

 

OpenHome is a set of extensions to this with the primary difference being the location of the play queue. With standard UPnP the queue is located on the control point and the control point needs to periodically wake up and tell the renderer to advance (this is why there are very few iOS control points as iOS doesn't like real time background activity). With OpenHome the playback queue is located on the renderer and the control point modifies that queue when the user selects new content to be played.

 

Tidal and Qobuz operate similarly except that the server component is the streaming provider's server and it speaks its own language (not UPnP), but it does provide a URL to a file for playback. With these two streaming services the process is nearly identical and the final step before sound happens is the renderer contacting the server (Qobuz or Tidal) directly to stream the file.

 

BubbleUPnP server is a special case since it's acting as a proxy to create a virtual OpenHome renderer out of a generic UPnP device. The control point tells the Bubble renderer to play the file(s) and the Bubble renderer in turn acts as a control point to the real renderer. The play queue is stored on the BubbleUPnP renderer and it contacts the streaming service (or your local UPnP server) to grab the file.

 

For the record the control point is NEVER involved in playback in any way shape or form. There is NO DIFFERENCE in sound quality between different control points as they are all simply remote controls that enable the playback process. If this were true then we'd start having conversations about how different iPad models change the sound!!!

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Good I see not much has changed since I wrote this article in 2013

 

 

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, AMP said:

While playback is taking place the control point maintains contact with the renderer for status updates (playback position) and if a subsequent track is in the queue to be played the control point provides this file URL to the renderer toward the end of the current file and says, "here, play this one next."

 

Indeed, though strictly speaking for gapless supporting control point and renderer, the control point makes sure it 'says' "here, play this one next" to the renderer quite some time before the renderer has finshed playing the current track, to give the renderer enough time to fetch and cue the next track's audio in its playback memory.

 

Where gapless support isn't in place, the communication happens immediately after the renderer has finished playing the current track and the control point 'says' a more generic "here, play this one" rather than a (subtler) "here, play this one next".

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, AMP said:

For the record the control point is NEVER involved in playback in any way shape or form. There is NO DIFFERENCE in sound quality between different control points as they are all simply remote controls that enable the playback process.

 

You can quote that one 'till you're blue in the face (been there / tried that) and still some on these forums will swear otherwise!

[Miska]

4 hours ago, Patatorz said:

I’m not sure to catch what you want to demonstrate. Nobody told you that the renderer needs to be OpenHome in order to stream http protocol.

 

You said that for streaming one would need OpenHome, this is not true.

 

4 hours ago, Patatorz said:

1/ applications like Lumin and Kazoo. In order these applications allow them connexion to qobuz and tidal for streaming, the renderer needs to be OpenHome

 

Here OpenHome only because those applications happen to be OpenHome applications, not because Tidal or Qobuz would somehow need OpenHome for something.

 

4 hours ago, Patatorz said:

2/ use a lms server with UPnP functionality and qobuz / tidal plugins.

 

This is not OpenHome...

 

3/ Or BubbleUPnP App, I've used it for couple of years at least. The Android app is not related to OpenHome though.

 

4 hours ago, Patatorz said:

it was the only way to have cope with slow development or interest of renderer manufacturer to make their renderer open to these 2 streaming services.

 

WRONG! Renderer doesn't need to support these services at all! Because content from those streaming services is played exactly same way as it is played from a local Media Server like Minim Server.

 

4 hours ago, Patatorz said:

renderer is nice but without a good control point and server, you have no service

 

Yes, however the dCS is Renderer, not a Control Point nor Server?

[Patatorz]

you are a joke. you are the expert that plays on words : congratulations you win ?