dCS Network Bridge

[AmusedToD]

2 minutes ago, Beolab said:

I think most of your discussions about  NUC , Rock , Roon , Rendu etc etc can be find elsewhere or by PM , very hard for newcomers to navigate otherwise. Just a small hint. 

 

 

Agree, perhaps this is not the place to go into further details with matters not connected to the NBR.

[stevebythebay]

Thanks.  Since I'm using a Berkeley Ref. 2 DAC with latest firmware I won't be exceeding 192k.  I'm  a PCM guy with lots of high res albums in tow.  I'll give the bridged approach a try.  Guess it at least means a direct shot to the dCS and may alter the way things operate in the TCP stack w. RAAT.

[AlastairH]

Hi there,

 

New on here and would like to quiz those using the NBR and legacy dCS items, if possible. 

 

I've recently bought the Purcell/Elgar Plus and NBR. Long story short, some years ago I owned the non firewire Purcell and Delius and regretted selling them..now back with dCS.

 

I have very few hi res files, and currently route the NBR through the Purcell and FireWire out to the Elgar Plus as I enjoy the dsd way. 

 

Question: I've read that slaving legacy products to the NBR clock makes sense, so I've done that as follows 

 

NBR clock out to Purcell clock in

Purcell clock out to Elgar Plus clock in 

 

Does that make any sense to connect the way I have, in terms of getting the best out of the legacy dCS gear

 

Thanks in advance,

Alastair 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AmusedToD]

39 minutes ago, AlastairH said:

Hi there,

 

New on here and would like to quiz those using the NBR and legacy dCS items, if possible. 

 

I've recently bought the Purcell/Elgar Plus and NBR. Long story short, some years ago I owned the non firewire Purcell and Delius and regretted selling them..now back with dCS.

 

I have very few hi res files, and currently route the NBR through the Purcell and FireWire out to the Elgar Plus as I enjoy the dsd way. 

 

Question: I've read that slaving legacy products to the NBR clock makes sense, so I've done that as follows 

 

NBR clock out to Purcell clock in

Purcell clock out to Elgar Plus clock in 

 

Does that make any sense to connect the way I have, in terms of getting the best out of the legacy dCS gear

 

Thanks in advance,

Alastair 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Both the Elgar Plus and the Purcell manuals mention using the Elgar in Master mode, meaning it’s clock is certainly better than the one in the Purcell.

 

For your scenario to work, you would need to put the Purcell in master mode and the Elgar in slave mode, and in that case the Elgar would lock to the Purcell. Otherwise the Elgar will be generating it’s own clock signal. But if you are using any dCS unit in master mode, then it cannot accept external clock signals, right? Meaning, the clock in from the NBR does nothing. The rationale behind this is that either the unit is in master mode (generates the signal and sends it through the clock out, or in slave mode - accepts the signal through the clock in). I don’t think any dCS unit can be in Master and Slave mode at the same time, and this is what it appears you are trying to do with the Purcell. Only a dedicated Master clock with a reference clock input (Paganini clock for example) is able to do what you are trying to accomplish with the Purcell, meaning to receive an external reference clock signal (from a rubidium clock or something) and still be in Master mode for other components that are connected to it.

 

So you either slave all 3 components to a master clock (for example Verona), or just do the following:

 

NBR clock out - Elgar Plus clock in (set the Elgar to be in slave mode), leave the Purcell as it is. In this case the DAC will be slaved to the transport (NBR) which is supposed to have a better clock.

[AlastairH]

5 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

 

Both the Elgar Plus and the Purcell manuals mention using the Elgar in Master mode, meaning it’s clock is certainly better than the one in the Purcell.

 

For your scenario to work, you would need to put the Purcell in master mode and the Elgar in slave mode, and in that case the Elgar would lock to the Purcell. Otherwise the Elgar will be generating it’s own clock signal. But if you are using any dCS unit in master mode, then it cannot accept external clock signals, right? Meaning, the clock in from the NBR does nothing. The rationale behind this is that either the unit is in master mode (generates the signal and send through the clock out, or in slave mode - accepts the signal through the clock in). I don’t think any dCS unit can be in Master and Slave mode at the same time, and this is what it appears you are trying to do with the Purcell.

 

So you either slave all 3 components to a master clock (for example Verona), or just do the following:

 

NBR clock out - Elgar Plus clock in (set the Elgar to be in slave mode), leave the Purcell as it is. In this case the DAC will be slaved to the transport (NBR) which is supposed to have a better clock.

 

Thank you AmusedToD, I felt daft for asking but glad I did. 

 

[AmusedToD]

1 minute ago, AlastairH said:

 

Thank you AmusedToD, I felt daft for asking but glad I did. 

 

 

You should definitely confirm this with dCS as I am only using logic here (I don’t have 3 dCS units, only 2 so it’s pretty easy to connect them).

 

Anyways, please report back and tell us if you are hearing any improvements. You should also try Elgar Plus (Master mode) clock out - NBR clock in, and see whether that sounds better.

 

From my short experience with the Elgar Plus, it’s a damn fine machine, maybe even slightly better than the Paganini in terms of SQ (although design wise it doesn’t come close to Paganini). It used to be their top tier DAC with an excellent clock inside, so you should definitely try this scenario too.

[AlastairH]

21 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

 

You should definitely confirm this with dCS as I am only using logic here (I don’t have 3 dCS units, only 2 so it’s pretty easy to connect them).

 

Anyways, please report back and tell us if you are hearing any improvements. You should also try Elgar Plus (Master mode) clock out - NBR clock in, and see whether that sounds better.

 

From my short experience with the Elgar Plus, it’s a damn fine machine, maybe even slightly better than the Paganini in terms of SQ (although design wise it doesn’t come close to Paganini). It used to be their top tier DAC with an excellent clock inside, so you should definitely try this scenario too.

Question asked - will let you know - thanks!

 

[Darryl R]

Just thought I'd post the file server I started building this weekend for the bridge:

 

[AmusedToD]

1 hour ago, Darryl R said:

Just thought I'd post the file server I started building this weekend for the bridge:

 

 

Nice! And the components are/will be?

[Darryl R]

51 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

 

Nice! And the components are/will be?

 

i3-7300T (fast and low wattage)

Gigabyte H270N-WiFi mobo (has dual Ethernet, but with the JCAT I could remove the WiFi)

16GB Corsair DDR4

4TB Samsung SSD

JCAT Net Femto

waiting on the picoPSU to finish

[AmusedToD]

24 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

i3-7300T (fast and low wattage)

Gigabyte H270N-WiFi mobo (has dual Ethernet, but with the JCAT I could remove the WiFi)

16GB Corsair DDR4

4TB Samsung SSD

JCAT Net Femto

waiting on the picoPSU to finish

 

What is a picoPSU?

 

Do you intend to run Roon ROCK on it? What will be the total cost?

 

I wonder how the JCAT performs (it has a Crystek system clock, right?), as it costs more than a 7th gen NUC. How will you be powering it?

 

I hope it will bring improvement to the performance of the dCS NBR, especially when connected directly to the JCAT NET card.

 

[Darryl R]

So the picoPSU is a small 20-pin card that provides power for the mobo, 2 SATA drives, and a molex for the JCAT, along with a 12-volt DC input.  Right, if the JCAT card doesn't work out, I'll have the WiFi and the 2 on-board Ethernet for the trio you need to get Ethernet bridging to work in Windows.  I'm thinking it will do at least what your SOtM Ethernet products do.

 

The cost of the components quickly adds up, but most things are a hundred or so bucks, the most expensive being, of course, the SSD you choose.  I saved a few hundred by going with the i3 over the i7 (couldn't imagine needing the i7 since I don't upsample).  This i3 is plenty fast (3.5 if I remember correctly).

 

I didn't care for Roon -- way too much emphasis on metadata for my taste.  Tell me about "ROCK".

[jcn3]

2 hours ago, Darryl R said:

I didn't care for Roon -- way too much emphasis on metadata for my taste.  Tell me about "ROCK".

 

ROCK is the complete packaged Linux-based version of Roon.

[AlastairH]

On 29/01/2018 at 6:27 PM, AlastairH said:

Question asked - will let you know - thanks!

 

 

Quick update to anyone interested. I had quick feedback from dCS technical who advised that the set up I have (NBR clock out > Purcell clock in and Purcell clock out > Elgar clock in) was the best way with my system wants. 

 

I also got the urge to add the old Verona master clock (as these are on the market at relatively cheap prices) when I was investigating.  Bit of completeness I guess, running the legacy devices, minus the Verdi as I don't spin cds. I quizzed dCS tech on this too, the short answer is that the Verona would not effectively work above 44.1k (again around my wants) and would seriously complicate the set up and limit options due to non dCS devices in my system. 

 

Right now I can process in DSD for all my sources, use the NBR clock out with the Purcell/Elgar Plus when using the NBR as a source. I think I was trying to have my cake and eat it too by essentially trying to clock all sources.  I have 3 other non dCS non word clock accessible devices routed into the Purcell. I guess the latter point is possible by running all devices through a Mutec MC3 type device but for now, I am aiming to enjoy what I have, which is pretty fine to my ears...so back to the music! 

[AmusedToD]

4 minutes ago, AlastairH said:

 

Quick update to anyone interested. I had quick feedback from dCS technical who advised that the set up I have (NBR clock out > Purcell clock in and Purcell clock out > Elgar clock in) was the best way with my system wants. 

 

I also got the urge to add the old Verona master clock (as these are on the market at relatively cheap prices) when I was investigating.  Bit of completeness I guess, running the legacy devices, minus the Verdi as I don't spin cds. I quizzed dCS tech on this too, the short answer is that the Verona would not effectively work above 44.1k (again around my wants) and would seriously complicate the set up and limit options due to non dCS devices in my system. 

 

Right now I can process in DSD for all my sources, use the NBR clock out with the Purcell/Elgar Plus when using the NBR as a source. I think I was trying to have my cake and eat it too by essentially trying to clock all sources.  I have 3 other non dCS non word clock accessible devices routed into the Purcell. I guess the latter point is possible by running all devices through a Mutec MC3 type device but for now, I am aiming to enjoy what I have, which is pretty fine to my ears...so back to the music! 

 

Interesting. Can you paste the full reply from dCS?

 

How is it possible for the Purcell to work in both master and slave mode at the same time? Neither the Elgar nor the Paganini have this option. Perhaps the Purcell and other upsamplers in their lineup have this option.

[AlastairH]

11 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

 

Interesting. Can you paste the full reply from dCS?

 

How is it possible for the Purcell to work in both master and slave mode at the same time? Neither the Elgar nor the Paganini have this option. Perhaps the Purcell and other upsamplers in their lineup have this option.

 

Of course, here you go:

 

Start: 

 

Hello Alastair,

 

Thank you for your enquiry. I assume “non-dCS source” means it has no word clock input?

 

I would connect the system up as follows:

 

Connect Network Bridge AES1 to Purcell.

Connect Network Bridge Clock Out to Purcell WCLK In, select AES input and set WCLK menu page to On.

Connect non-DCS source to Purcell RCA1, select RCA input and set WCLK menu page to Out.

Set Purcell Output rate to DSD.

Connect Purcell 1394 to Elgar 1394 (only one cable, please!).

Connect Purcell WCLK Out to Elgar WCLK In, select 1394 input, set MS menu page to MS:Sync.

Set the Network Bridge AES Downsampling to 96, set the Dual AES rate to 352.8.

 

Connecting a Verona to all dCS units would not work because the Verona can only output one frequency at a time, and this would not suit all the units with 96k data.

 

You could improve the Network Bridge sound quality with a Rossini Clock, connecting outputs 1 & 2 to the Bridge’s 2 word clock inputs. This allows the Bridge to lock to the Clock with any file rate. 

 

Locking the other units to the Clock is problematic due to the Classic unit’s limitations and the need to accommodate the non-dCS source.

 

I hope that helps.

 

end.

 

[Darryl R]

On 2/5/2018 at 12:45 PM, AmusedToD said:

 

What is a picoPSU?

 

Do you intend to run Roon ROCK on it? What will be the total cost?

 

I wonder how the JCAT performs (it has a Crystek system clock, right?), as it costs more than a 7th gen NUC. How will you be powering it?

 

I hope it will bring improvement to the performance of the dCS NBR, especially when connected directly to the JCAT NET card.

 

 

The JCAT Net card is very impressive when used in combination with bridged connections.  This took some time though, and in the end I had to abandon Windows because the dCS control app wasn't seeing Minimserver after i bridged the connections, and I tried all the proposed "solutions" for Windows.  MacOS or Ubuntu is the way to go if you want a simple configuration with the dCS control app instead of Roon (couldn't get much to work with iOS either).

[Cooler]

On 05/02/2018 at 5:11 PM, Darryl R said:

Just thought I'd post the file server I started building this weekend for the bridge:

 

What case do you use?

 

Im thinking to switch to dCS NBR as well. I realised, that my rack is full of different boxes and i want to reduce their amount.

I have  custom PC + HD-Plex LPSU, inside PC is JCAT Net card + LPS-1, then sonore ultrarendu + sonore signature PSU, then berkeley usb converter.

 

I use only 1 JCAT Net card port, because i use LPS-1 with it, and its not enough current for two ports(1A instead of 2A), which is sad, as i dont see anything good enough with 2A on the market, maybe i will buy additional LPS-1 and special Y cable to connect both of them to one JCAT card, but again, box increasing, which i try to avoid.

 

On custom PC i use linux and i fully isolated ultrarendu from network, i can use it without internet at all, with help of dhcp server, installed on this computer, i also installed HQPlayer and Roon core there and everything works like a charm. The only issue in this setup, boxes, no better to say, BOXES  

 

I thought to switch to aurender, then to dCS NBR, im not sure if dCS NBR will play better, than ultrarendu. I use ultrarendu in NAA mode with HQPlayer, which definitely sounds better than Roon mode. I suppose dCS NBR doesnt support NAA?!

 

Another question about all this clock stuff.

Lets say i have chain: switch with clocks -> JCAT Net card with another clocks -> dCS NBR with its own clocks, is that important to sync them all with some master device? If we dont sync them, it means, they are conflicting or just doesnt work properly == waste of money?

 

[mecani]

Hello Do you know any dates for the update of the network bridge?

[Beolab]

A couple of month was the latest i heard from dCS Ltd last week unfortenatly. 

[stevebythebay]

Well Danny offered me a Nucleus rather than wait to have my local dealer sell me one.  Same list pricing.  Installed it on Saturday.  Took quite a while to get the database fully installed and clean (seems there's quite a number of steps the Roon code goes through to ensure that all the pieces are in place so that album covers and everything else looks right).  

 

In addition to the nice hardware Danny alerted me as follows about the Nucleus that I was not aware of:

 

"The biggest advantage over NUC/ROCK is that it is fanless, so no audible noise. We've also been able to turn off some more functionality of the Intel board in Nucleus (which may generate less electrical noise) because we are able to flash it using non-public tools from Intel.

As for the LPS, we are working with a respected audio partner on a new add-on PS that will also fit the industrial design of the Nucleus case. That is not ready yet.”

 

[stevebythebay]

Nearly forgot to provide a bit of my reaction so far to the Nucleus:

 

I will state for the record that the Nucleus, after a few hours listening, is substantially better than my MacMini. That system, which is substantially faster with more memory, is likely burdened by less than optimized software. What you guys have done, especially in tuning R.O.C.K. for this hardware, has made a huge difference in lowering the noise floor, bringing out more details and creating more focus than what my MacMini has offered to date. Seems like the overall timing of how the Roon player delivers the bits downstream contributes to a far more focused soundstage. Greater depth and breadth. This results in a smoother and easier listening experience. Instruments and vocals are simply more realistic. Listening to high resolution sources, such as Dave Brubeck’s “Time Out”, really show off these attributes of the Nucleus. I’m sure I’ll discover more striking improvements with standard Redbook CD’s in addition to well recorded older mono albums. I’ll be curious when MQA first unfold happens (either in Roon or when dCS delivers it in their Network Bridge; already have MQA rendering in my DAC). That might suggest whether this format has much to offer beyond uncompressed PCM.

[udis]

10 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Nearly forgot to provide a bit of my reaction so far to the Nucleus:

 

I will state for the record that the Nucleus, after a few hours listening, is substantially better than my MacMini. That system, which is substantially faster with more memory, is likely burdened by less than optimized software. What you guys have done, especially in tuning R.O.C.K. for this hardware, has made a huge difference in lowering the noise floor, bringing out more details and creating more focus than what my MacMini has offered to date. Seems like the overall timing of how the Roon player delivers the bits downstream contributes to a far more focused soundstage. Greater depth and breadth. This results in a smoother and easier listening experience. Instruments and vocals are simply more realistic. Listening to high resolution sources, such as Dave Brubeck’s “Time Out”, really show off these attributes of the Nucleus. I’m sure I’ll discover more striking improvements with standard Redbook CD’s in addition to well recorded older mono albums. I’ll be curious when MQA first unfold happens (either in Roon or when dCS delivers it in their Network Bridge; already have MQA rendering in my DAC). That might suggest whether this format has much to offer beyond uncompressed PCM.

 

Are you still using the Qnap or all files are now being served from the Nucleus?

[stevebythebay]

Still using the QNAP.  Rather not burden the Nucleus with any more than is necessary.  Leave it to the QNAP to gather up the bits and stream them via the network (wired throughout gigabit).  And since I've got upwards of 4 1/2 TB of music, it wouldn't be cost effective to try and shoehorn all of that in the Nucleus.

[udis]

On 2/15/2018 at 12:58 PM, stevebythebay said:

Still using the QNAP.  Rather not burden the Nucleus with any more than is necessary.  Leave it to the QNAP to gather up the bits and stream them via the network (wired throughout gigabit).  And since I've got upwards of 4 1/2 TB of music, it wouldn't be cost effective to try and shoehorn all of that in the Nucleus.

Have you taken any precautions in terms of network isolation? To me, having both core and files on a single machine works in a sense that it allows me to bridge it to the dcs bridge. My network is very busy with many devices (camera, thermostats, tvs, etc..).  But again, i've always been under the impression that separation is ideal for Roon.