New exaSound e32 and e38 DACs with DSD 256 at TAVES Show This Weekend

[richard kimber]

????? Sabre DACs can play any file. You can upsample to whatever PCM or DSD speed you want and Sabre DACs will play them.....so will most DACs.

 

?? I've not been able to find very many that do DSD512

 

- Richard

[Ric Schultz]

DSD512 is pretty esoteric. There is no music recorded at that frequency and the only thing to play is upsampled DSD via computer. HQplayer, according to many, is the best sounding upsampling player and playing anything upsampled to DSD512 is suppose to be out of this world amazing. As this technology gets more well known and desired it will push the manufacturers to make all their DACs compatible. The Gustard will take DSD 512 into its I2S port now and next year Sinxger will have a usb to I2S converter that will run at DSD512. You can hardwire a usb board from DIYINHK into the Gustard to get DSD512 into it but it is a crazy tweako thang that only one person has done (see posts everywhere by Quadman). He thinks it is pretty outrageous the sound he gets from playing 16/44 upsampled to DSD512. What is hard to believe is that DACs are still being released without DSD capability and some still only do DSD128 (for instance, the new $9000 Ayre with one ESS 9038 DAC can only do DSD128). There is music recorded at DSD256 and most everyone feels it sounds better than the same recording at DSD128.

[YashN]

and the only thing to play is upsampled DSD via computer.

 

This is already a very big advantage.

[richard kimber]

DSD512 is pretty esoteric. There is no music recorded at that frequency and the only thing to play is upsampled DSD via computer.

 

I'm aware of that. Using HQP to upsample was exactly what I intend to try. The issue is finding good DACs that will handle DSD512.

 

The only ones I know of are:

T+A DAC 8 DSD: DAC 8

 

Matrix Audio X-SABRE Pro Matrix Audio X-SABRE Pro

 

Are there others?

 

- Richard.

[bmoura]

I'm aware of that. Using HQP to upsample was exactly what I intend to try. The issue is finding good DACs that will handle DSD512.

The only ones I know of are:

T+A DAC 8 DSD: DAC 8

Matrix Audio X-SABRE Pro Matrix Audio X-SABRE Pro

Are there others?

Yes, there are a number of DACs that play music upsampled to DSD 512.

Check the "DSD 512" column in the NativeDSD Database list of DACs to see more choices.

 

http://www.nativedsd.com/database

[richard kimber]

Yes, there are a number of DACs that play music upsampled to DSD 512.

Check the "DSD 512" column in the NativeDSD Database list of DACs to see more choices.

 

http://www.nativedsd.com/database

 

Thanks for the link. Some of them seem to be more than just DACS (e.g. network players) and some are for the mass market. Most seem to be based on the older ES9018 ESS Sabre chip. I guess it makes sense to wait for ES9038 chips, since reports suggest they have a superior soundstage. I think I'm right that of the 17 listed only the Matrix uses ES9038, and isn't yet available, though it can be ordered. I couldn't find the iFi Pro iDSD on their website.

 

- Richard.

[bmoura]

Thanks for the link. Some of them seem to be more than just DACS (e.g. network players) and some are for the mass market. Most seem to be based on the older ES9018 ESS Sabre chip. I guess it makes sense to wait for ES9038 chips, since reports suggest they have a superior soundstage. I think I'm right that of the 17 listed only the Matrix uses ES9038, and isn't yet available, though it can be ordered. I couldn't find the iFi Pro iDSD on their website.

 

- Richard.

I'd be careful about focusing too much on the chip model and number used in a DAC. A lot depends on the design and circuitry that is used in addition to the DAC chip.

 

Also worth noting, some audio companies make DSD DACs that don't use chips at all - using Field Programmed Gate Arrays (FPGAs) or Direct Analog Filtering. And some of those DACs are likely to sound quite good vs. the competition which may or may not have the latest DAC chip inside.

[Ric Schultz]

Where is there information on the sound of the ESS9018 versus 9028 versus 9038? I will have the new Gustard with the ESS9028s in by the end of the week and I will be able to determine (once burned in and modded as the old one was) how it performs on the same music at the same volume.

 

There are two new Gustard DACs that do DSD512 via I2S. Early next year Singxer will have a usb to I2S converter that will pass 512 so all the Gustards can be used that way. People are already buying the Gustard with the current 256 capable Singxer and loving it. The two new Gustards are the X20U Pro (uses 2 9028 DAC chips) and the new A20H which uses two of the new AKM 4497 DAC chips and has a headphone amp built in. Both of these new DACs can do 256 via usb and 512 via I2S. Hopefully, they will get added to the Nativedsd list soon.

 

I agree with bmoura's comment on DAC chip obsession. All DACs made using the same DAC chip sound different. Some sound not so good, some sound very good and some sound really, really good. Implementaion is critical.....every thing in a DAC changes the sound....all the parts, the power supply, the output stage, damping, shielding, jacks, etc. etc. Some people like the AKM DACs over the ESS DACs (really hard to A/B DAC chips) so maybe the new Gustard with the AKMs will be dynamite on DSD512? There is mucho to be know yet. However, it does make sense to get a DAC with the latest version of the manufacturers chips and also check out the discrete jobbies as well. There are lots of possibilities.

[richard kimber]

Where is there information on the sound of the ESS9018 versus 9028 versus 9038? I will have the new Gustard with the ESS9028s in by the end of the week and I will be able to determine (once burned in and modded as the old one was) how it performs on the same music at the same volume.

 

My comments about the new chips were mostly based on what I'd gathered from the discussion on PFM in the MDAC thread. John Westlake, who works closely with ESS, is producing an MDAC2 based on the 9038, and what I said was my interpretation of the various comments that he has made. However, it would also be odd for a company to produce a new chip that didn't give better sound than the old one

 

- Richard.

[bmoura]

It would also be odd for a company to produce a new chip that didn't give better sound than the old one

Not necessarily. A new chip might have a lower price than the previous one. Or cut a few corners to give the manufacturer a bigger profit margin at the same list price.

 

Many possibilities.

[Ric Schultz]

What/where is "PFM"?

[Ric Schultz]

Not necessarily. A new chip might have a lower price than the previous one. Or cut a few corners to give the manufacturer a bigger profit margin at the same list price.

 

Many possibilities.

 

Wow! So, they are all charging more for these chips because they cost less? Resonessence claims they sound better and charges $1000 to upgrade your Mirus to a Mirus Pro and all they do is give you the new 9028s instead of 9018s. Imagine getting your updated Mirus Pro back and saying....."I paid $1000 for this? it does not sound any different!". Wow! that would be a bummer! And Resonessence would probably go out of business once all the updated Pro's were talked about on the forums.

Of course, there are many possibilities.....but the ones you describe are not among them.

 

Gustard is charging $30 more to get their new DAC with 9028s....also has more digital filter settings and a pretty box for the remote. I like their pricing better. As I said above, I will be getting one of the new Gustards in and can compare to the old one. The only thing Gustard did was to change the DAC chips from 9018 to 9028. This should be interesting.

[richard kimber]

What/where is "PFM"?

 

Pink Fish Media

 

audio - pink fish media

 

There's a very long thread (the admin has given it binary numbering, currently at 00110011):

called "MDAC First Listen".

 

- Richard.

[jmdesignz2]

Not necessarily. A new chip might have a lower price than the previous one. Or cut a few corners to give the manufacturer a bigger profit margin at the same list price.

 

Many possibilities.

 

Those are possible. Also it's logical that the new chip would have more features and or run with lower energy required or have faster processing.

It is entirely possible that the sound is not any better but other circuitry can compensate or make it seem to sound better. After all to most engineers that design chips, bits are bits?

[bmoura]

It is entirely possible that the sound is not any better but other circuitry can compensate or make it seem to sound better. After all to most engineers that design chips, bits are bits?

Some audio designers only use a portion of a DAC chip (when their converters have DAC chips) in their designs rather than all of the available features. They prefer to handle other features and processing with discrete circuitry vs. with the DAC chip.

 

That helps to explain why DACs with the same chip sound very different and have different levels of sound quality. And why a DAC with an earlier (or "older model") can sound better than a DAC with a newer chip.

 

As always, the final result is best judged by listening to the DACs you are considering before purchasing.

[Bob Stern]

US customers can get a better price from NativeDSD!

 

exaSound e32 Stereo DAC - NativeDSD Gear

 

Because the Netherlands VAT (BWT) does not apply to customers outside the EU, the NativeDSD store sells the e32 about 15% cheaper than exaSound's own online store for US customers. The NativeDSD price, including shipping to the US, is €2768 = $2930. Plus, you get 6 free DSD downloads from NativeDSD (11 downloads during cyber week sale).

 

(I assume the gear would be shipped directly from exaSound's Canada factory, not the Netherlands, because the latter would incur BWT.)

[jmdesignz2]

Some audio designers only use a portion of a DAC chip (when their converters have DAC chips) in their designs rather than all of the available features. They prefer to handle other features and processing with discrete circuitry vs. with the DAC chip.

 

That helps to explain why DACs with the same chip sound very different and have different levels of sound quality. And why a DAC with an earlier (or "older model") can sound better than a DAC with a newer chip.

 

As always, the final result is best judged by listening to the DACs you are considering before purchasing.

 

Then add in room effects, modes and confirmation bias...

[Ric Schultz]

Some audio designers only use a portion of a DAC chip (when their converters have DAC chips) in their designs rather than all of the available features. They prefer to handle other features and processing with discrete circuitry vs. with the DAC chip.

 

.

 

That helps to explain why DACs with the same chip sound very different and have different levels of sound quality. And why a DAC with an earlier (or "older model") can sound better than a DAC with a newer chip.

 

As always, the final result is best judged by listening to the DACs you are considering before purchasing.

 

The only company that I know that does not use the whole ESS DAC chip is Ayre. They have their own digital filter. Most everyone else....including: Exasound, Resonessence, Wyred for Sound, Gustard, LKS, Nadac, Benchmark, Mytek, Nuprime, Oppo, Buffalo, Eastern Electric, Lumin, Vega, etc. etc. etc. etc. (as far as I know) use the entire ESS DAC, including the digital filter. I am sure someone here will let us know if I have made a mistake here.

 

There are hundreds of things that you can do in a DAC that will change the sound besides the DAC chip. Using the same DAC chip, the same output opamps and the same Crystek femtoclock you can make infinitely different variations of sound. The power supply parts (every one of them), the jacks, the resonance of the chassis, the grounding, the brands of resistors, the brand of solder, etc., etc., etc....literally everything you do effects the sound. This is my experience from 30 years of modifying CD players and DACs and manufacturing DACs.

 

Yes indeed, you have to listen to determine who is the best sonic artist. Most of the things that make a sonic difference/improvement cannot be measured. This is still an art form.

 

The first? review of a DAC with a 9028 has just been posted....he liked it. There is some info there as to why the new ESS chips might sound better...a nice read:

 

http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/resonessence/1.html

[jjkale]

 

There are hundreds of things that you can do in a DAC that will change the sound besides the DAC chip. Using the same DAC chip, the same output opamps and the same Crystek femtoclock you can make infinitely different variations of sound. The power supply parts (every one of them), the jacks, the resonance of the chassis, the grounding, the brands of resistors, the brand of solder, etc., etc., etc....literally everything you do effects the sound. This is my experience from 30 years of modifying CD players and DACs and manufacturing DACs.

 

 

Ric,

Can a DAC (Gustard Pro) be modded by removing or otherwise disabling its clock and then using an external clock, i.e. the PinkFaun I2S Bridge?

thanks, jjk

[Ric Schultz]

Don't know. The clock that is directly attached to the ESS DAC chip is a 100meg clock....but this is not the master clock that comes in on the digital side of the DAC. You really need to talk to PinkFaun and have them explain if this can be done on a "normal" DAC that does not have a clock input. Most DACs do not have a separate clock input. The obvious advantage of a multichannel DAC like the Exasound e38 is that there is just one multichannel DAC chip all run on the same clock. The advantage you are looking for is more resolution. You want a whole ESS9028 DAC chip (8 channels paralleled) for each channel. The e38 just uses one 9028 so would not have nearly the resolution. Can you do this? Don't know. Let me/us know if you find out. Right now, the e38 ($3850 for one 9028 DAC chip and a few op amps) seems to be the only simple solution. However, how is it better than the new Oppo 4K player coming out next year with probably a 9038 for its multichannel DAC? No doubt the Exasound will sound better stock as Oppo screws minor things up here and there.....but with mods....it may be better. I will email Oppo and tell them I want a multichannel DAC with 6 9038 chips. You could have one paralleled 9038 for the fronts, center and sub and use the other two DACs in "normal stereo use"....ie just 4 DACs in parallel, for the other 4 channels. If Oppo made it, it would be around $2000. Hey, if they can do one 9038 for $800 there is no reason they could not do what I describe. There is just not enough multichannel users to push manufacturers to make serious multichannel DACs. Exasound and Nadac have a current monopoly......but very expensive for what you get, in my opinion.

[Keith_W]

Exasound and Nadac have a current monopoly......but very expensive for what you get, in my opinion.

I completely agree with you. I pointed out the poor value of the NADAC in another thread and got a rather poor reception from Dominique Brulhart himself. At the moment, if you need a multichannel DAC, you have very little choice. But if you need a 2 channel DAC, then the 2 channel NADAC can be laughed out of the listening room. It is ludicrously poor value.

[bmoura]

I completely agree with you. I pointed out the poor value of the NADAC in another thread and got a rather poor reception from Dominique Brulhart himself. At the moment, if you need a multichannel DAC, you have very little choice. But if you need a 2 channel DAC, then the 2 channel NADAC can be laughed out of the listening room. It is ludicrously poor value.

 

Others have a different view of the sonic quality and performance of the NADAC MC-8 DSD 256 & PCM Multichannel converter.

 

Here's a recent post from Bob Attiyeh from Yarlung Records about the Merging Technologies NADAC MC-8 that Yarlung has installed in their state of the art Multichannel recording studio, now under construction.....

 

"Merging Technologies, a great Swiss company with which Yarlung is very proud to work, continues to amaze me. Thanks to our North American distributor Philip O'Hanlon at "On a Higher Note," we are now using the multi-channel Merging Technologies NADAC for 256DSD and PCM playback, in both stereo and multi channel.

 

Dominique Brulhart and Ricardo Ryan have been working with us on unique configuration settings, by email and telephone. The system is stable and sounds excellent playing all formats (and in all temperatures! Our new multi-channel studio is not built out yet and has no heat, so we have learned that Merging equipment works fine in freezing temperatures as well!)

 

When was the last time you received excellent customer service from the huge manufacturing companies? Here is what I just emailed Dominique:

 

"Dominique, the spirit of Merging Technologies is extraordinary. You are big and powerful enough to be able to create and build the best, yet small enough to respond swiftly to potential adjustments and improvements in the systems. Yarlung is proud to be associated with Merging in the small ways that we are, and we take continuous inspiration from you and your team. Thanks!

 

--Bob Attiyeh"

 

 

[pompon]

@exa:

 

Why not offer E38 with 1/4 balanced connectors ? They fit in the same size and they are standard in the pro community. Cables are easy to find compared to mini-xlr.

 

OR

 

You never think to make it bigger case to put full size XLR connectors ?

 

I REALLY MISS WORD CLOCK IN/OUT ... when we use 8 channels, we probably use dsp room correction too. The only manner to deal with acoustic phases is having the same clock on the recording interface and the dac to avoid clock drift.

 

Having 8 dac chip will be awesome! each channel having it's sabre32 internal volume will be fantastic. Able to sum all the 8 channels into 1 for better quality ... for sure buyers for that.

[jmdesignz2]

Lower noise

Lower distortion

Faster locking when sampling rate is changed

Faster switching between inputs

More stable and consistent handling of DSD128 and DSD256.

 

The old ES9018 had to be handled with custom settings under controlled hardware conditions to be able to play DSD256. It was possible with very limited room for customization. The new ES9028PRO allows more freedom at the top sampling rates and can be further fine-tuned.

 

Hi Exasound - I have a question about using a linear power supply. Is it ok to use a 13.8V 4A supply? It is my understanding that electronics will not pull more amps than they need and that most designers allow for some voltage variance.

 

Thanks

[mike eastman]

Yes electronics will only pull the the amount of amps it needs. I ran my e-22 off a battery and the voltage would run any were from 12.7 to 14 volts depending on its' state on charge. So the 13.8V will be no problem.