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What is the Argument for USB DACs and Streaming via USB?


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USB DACs and streaming have their challenges, what with electrical noise and bus communication conflicts. So what is the argument in favor of USB rather than coax or optical connections? Manufacturers I respect (Ayre and Sonore for example) make products that only work with USB. I own examples of each.

Is the argument that laptop computers emit lower RFI but don't generally have coax capability? If this argument prevails, why do manufacturers struggle with USB to spdif converters?

Not trying to start a flame war, I just wonder what the reasoning is behind the differing philosophies. Thanks.

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In the 'olden days' a USB drive and DAC on the same bus, caused coughing and spluttering of sound, it wasn't pretty!

 

These days, on at least three different combos of DAC, Computer (OSX or Win10) and USB portable drive, there's not a blip or carry on, plays fine.

Miska seemed to think that 'all USB' could cause dsf glitches at the beginnnig of tracks but when playing networked files the problems remained the same ie, HQPlayer has the problem.

 

The main problem with USB is not so much RFI as such but leakage currents from DC power supplies from equipment coupling the computer to the DAC via the USB cable shield. USB can be improved of course, so can coax and AES3, totally depends on budgets.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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USB can be asynchronous and supports higher sample rates as well as multiple channels.

 

If you like DSD (or upsampling to DSD), SDIF (as distinct from SPDIF) isn't all that common, whereas USB DACs that can accept DSD input are widely available these days.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical to EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> ISO Regen -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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USB DACs and streaming have their challenges, what with electrical noise and bus communication conflicts. snip

 

Bit of a hot button issue with me. Firstly as others have said, there are no bus communication conflicts. Simply not a problem.

 

Lots of talk and thoughts of electrical noise. I don't get it. Asynch USB is a wonderful and simple way to connect a DAC. One big advantage is you can put the clock at the DAC instead of locking onto an external clock. That is a distinct advantage for good timing low jitter. That is why it is better than optical or coax.

 

Somehow this myth has been created from nothing, that USB is an interface for DACs that is laden with danger and difficulty. Connecting a USB cable at both ends has become a complex cottage industry all its own. I don't understand why.

 

Hook up a basic good USB cable and use it. You won't find it presenting any real problems.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Connecting a USB cable at both ends has become a complex cottage industry all its own. I don't understand why.

 

Perhaps Plissken, yourself , and several others should try reading the many explanatory posts by well respected E.E. John Swenson in the sponsored area of the forum ?

If USB for Audio was anywhere near as good as you "experts" claim, then 1,000's of CA members wouldn't have invested so heavily in better USB cables, Intona USB Isolators, USB Regens etc. ,markedly improved power supplies and special mains isolation transformers ?

 

The main problem with USB is not so much RFI as such but leakage currents from DC power supplies from equipment coupling the computer to the DAC via the USB cable shield.

 

+1

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Hi,

 

Bit strong that TBH... doesn't mirror my now somewhat extensive experience in this optimising USB saga.

 

All I would say is if you do one thing to help your USB connection, try an Intona Industrial or JCAT (same product).

 

Have you tried these? I'd be surprised if you preferred it without.

 

 

 

Somehow this myth has been created from nothing, that USB is an interface for DACs that is laden with danger and difficulty. Connecting a USB cable at both ends has become a complex cottage industry all its own. I don't understand why.

 

Hook up a basic good USB cable and use it. You won't find it presenting any real problems.

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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I don't think Computer Audio would have grown the way it has without USB. The USB interface has given everyone with a laptop or a spare computer a chance to experiment with the explosive convenience of computer audio. Like any other protocol it has it's pros and cons - and as others have mentioned - USB today is much better than it was a few years ago.

 

Purely in terms of the technical abilities - USB is pretty much the only way for hires files. Toslink tops out at 24/96 (maybe more) and digital coax goes to 24/192. If you plan to use anything like DXD and DSD, USB is the easiest way to go. While ethernet is talked about nobody mentions the electrical isolation issues it brings up. While there are workarounds to that, we basically come back to using isolators of some kind or the other. I2s is another option offered but it is in a very nascent stage IMO.

 

To summarize - USB is convenient and efficient. When done right it can be SOA.

Win10 Transport + Fidelizer 8.7 + JRMC 28 & HQPlayer | Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB |  Job INT | Green Mountain Audio Eos HX

 

 

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If USB for Audio was anywhere near as good as you "experts" claim, then 1,000's of CA members wouldn't have invested so heavily in better USB cables, Intona USB Isolators, USB Regens etc. ,markedly improved power supplies and special mains isolation transformers ?

 

 

So here's the problem with that line of reasoning for me, Alex: If your power supply is decent, why does it require a JLH ripple eater? Just because people want to improve on something doesn't mean it's terrible in the first place, considering neither we nor our electronics are granted perfection.

 

All of the varieties of ways to feed DACs have problems to solve. It's the quality of the implementation - how the implementation deals with the problems endemic to the format - that rules for me, much as it's the quality of the recording rather than the particular format it's recorded in (Redbook, hi res, PCM, DSD, disc, download, vinyl, etc.).

 

Toslink offers galvanic isolation, but then there's potential noise from the opto-electronic conversion in the DAC to consider. And it's not very high bandwidth.

 

Coax has higher bandwidth, but lacks inherent galvanic isolation.

 

Async USB has higher bandwidth, lacks inherent galvanic isolation, but offers the potential for lower jitter than either Toslink or coax.

 

Then there are optical and copper Ethernet, i2s....

 

Each of these may be implemented with greater or lesser quality, i.e., with inherent weaknesses ameliorated to a greater or lesser extent. Back in the days when SPDIF ruled, there were all sorts of accessories sold to improve on the toslink and coax interfaces. Now that USB is ubiquitous, the accessory market has naturally shifted. If you are a manufacturer you can still restrict yourself to SPDIF accessories, but you will be selling into a relatively limited market. It would be tremendously surprising under these circumstances if we did *not* see USB improvement gizmos everywhere.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical to EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> ISO Regen -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Somehow this myth has been created from nothing, that USB is an interface for DACs that is laden with danger and difficulty. Connecting a USB cable at both ends has become a complex cottage industry all its own. I don't understand why.

 

I and I'm sure many forum members tried many USB cables. I tried them with many lower end portable DACs and also many desktop DACs, including for example Oppo HA-1 and Yulong DA8, that are pieces in $1000 range. Together maybe 15 different devices. And the amount of cables could be easily also more than ten. I tried all I have at home - what remained after old CD writers, what do I have for GPS devices etc. I asked in this forum for some cheap and good USB cables and then I bought one from Belkin Gold Series as well as Supra USB, both considered to be pure bargain on this forum, so they could be considered to be basic USB cables as you are calling for.

 

I found that sound differs with different USB cables and I'm not alone who found that. Because of that finding I searched for further non expensive improvements. I bought a cheap STONTRONICS 5V 1A linear power supply and made an Y type USB cable to feed my DAC with cleaner power. I was pleased with the result. I tried more power supplies including different usual switching power adapters and including few battery sources. Typically I could hear a difference.

 

As I had opportunity to compare many DACs (typically side by side) and I learned what for difference can be heard between them, I understand how much we have to pay for some level of improvement. Hundreds of dollars for small improvement in sound in the case of DACs. Then I compared it with the improvement level reached by careful USB cable selection and power supply selection to feed DAC USB input with. I found that my 'USB improvements' are efficient investment. My Supra USB cable together with STONTRONICS LPS + Y type of USB cable were together about 120 EUR including postage fees.

 

Hook up a basic good USB cable and use it. You won't find it presenting any real problems.

 

It's not about technical problems but about better sound. If you don't experience such differences in sound then I'm sorry but please respect experience of many forum members here. Bits are bits - the same bits are coming to USB input with all correctly made cables, but different cables, power supplies, regens, reclockers etc. have different influence to amount and character of noise, which finds it's way to analog parts of DAC. That's the difference we hear.

 

Some interesting contributions on the topic:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/comparison-thread-recovery-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-reclocker-regen-and-similar-devices-curated-thread-27465/index6.html#post536563

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/did-we-overhype-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-audio-and-overlook-possible-pitfalls-27343/index3.html#post504501

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/which-one-buy-uptone-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-regen-or-intona-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-isolator-26815/index3.html#post496907

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So here's the problem with that line of reasoning for me, Alex: If your power supply is decent, why does it require a JLH ripple eater?

 

How many off the shelf computers were purposely built for high quality audio, and use decent well isolated power supplies for that purpose ? I use the JLH Ripple Eaters, because for me it's a cost effective way of further improving the original SMPS costing probably $20 direct from an Asian manufacturer, without needing to go the full route of fitting an expensive aftermarket Linear PSU from Paul Hynes , Uptone etc.. ( I am now a Pensioner with only a small disposable income)

For many people that additional high cost can't be justified. Neither do you need to use a JLH to improve the power supply for internal SSD storage to obtain improved isolation between components and a higher resulting SQ.

I have on more than a few occasions suggested fitting a cheap PSU PCB obtainable for around $30 on ebay which has only 40uV noise, and shown how to use it using a cut in half 4pin Molex to SATA power cable. It can convert the main noisy SMPS +12V to a squeaky clean +5V.

 

Perhaps for the same reason that many members now need the LPS-1 from Uptone to power their Regen etc to obtain high quality audio that well implemented coax SPDIF has been able to do for years ? By well implemented, I mean using transformers at TX and RX. Even my old MF X-DAC V3 has Coax SPDIF transformers. Then the bean counters got their way, and decided that for a small reduction in measured performance they could dispense with them .

Would we even have USB Audio in the first place, if it wasn't for the demands of mainly Mac owners who had to rely on motherboard Toslink and it's original limitations of 48kHZ , and eventually led to USB being capable of higher resolution audio ?

It seems ridiculous to me that many people have had to spend way more than their computer is worth to obtain high quality audio from USB.

 

Perhaps some of you need to revisit a stock standard Mac Mini , connected via Toslink, or even via a consumer grade USB cable and see whether you could still live with the resulting audio after hearing what your computers are now capable of ?

Perhaps Dennis can, but I doubt that most of you could. It's not just a MINOR improvement !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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This is the PSU PCB that is quite affordable, and has been reported by other members to further improve their Audio.

Finding room for it in some favoured computers could be problematical though. It can be bolted to the bottom of the PC's case in some PCs.

JyFvvX.jpg

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Perhaps for the same reason that many members now need the LPS-1 from Uptone to power their Regen etc to obtain high quality audio that well implemented coax SPDIF has been able to do for years ? By well implemented, I mean using transformers at TX and RX. Even my old MF X-DAC V3 has Coax SPDIF transformers. Then the bean counters got their way, and decided that for a small reduction in measured performance they could dispense with them .

Would we even have USB Audio in the first place, if it wasn't for the demands of mainly Mac owners who had to rely on motherboard Toslink and it's original limitations of 48kHZ , and eventually led to USB being capable of higher resolution audio ?

It seems ridiculous to me that many people have had to spend way more than their computer is worth to obtain high quality audio from USB.

 

Perhaps some of you need to revisit a stock standard Mac Mini , connected via Toslink, or even via a consumer grade USB cable and see whether you could still live with the resulting audio after hearing what your computers are now capable of ?

Perhaps Dennis can, but I doubt that most of you could. It's not just a MINOR improvement !

 

Hi Alex. Pardon me for being late getting back to you on this, but I wanted to relay some memories from my early digital audio days (when dinosaurs roamed the earth ;) ).

 

In 1991 or so, I purchased a Theta DS Pro Basic for around $2000. It was designed by Mike Moffat, who invented the idea of separate DACs (and is now one of the co-principals for Schiit Audio). It used SPDIF input. Back then, I and most of the audiophiles I knew felt there were audible differences among the available coaxial digital cables. What I eventually settled on was the Omega Mikro Zephyr, which goes for over $400 a meter these days, though I bought it as a "warehouse special" a long time ago for a lot less. Mike Moffat eventually developed the Theta "Laser Linque," an ST-Optical connection that sold for around $800 if I remember correctly. I listened to it at my dealer's, and it did sound much better. My dealer immediately identified the source of its superiority as elimination of the ground connection between source and DAC. (Toslink did that too, but I have never thought it sounded as good as coax, ST-Optical, or for that matter USB.)

 

My source was the Theta Data, a modified Laserdisc player, which I think may also have been around $2000.

 

My present async USB DAC cost around ~$375, and the USB cable I'm feeding it with was $135. As source I'm using either a laptop I already owned before I ever got into computer audio, or a desktop I likewise already owned with a Cubox computer as NAA that cost less than $100. Audirvana Plus software costs $75 if I remember correctly, HQPlayer around $150 (again if I remember correctly), and XXHighEnd around $90-$100 depending on the exchange rate. I don't use XXHighEnd much in the main system any more, since the laptop is old and restricted to Windows 7, while the action with XXHE is in Windows 10 these days.

 

So before getting into power conditioning, the cost of my SPDIF system, limited to Redbook and 48KHz playback, was well over $4000; my basic USB system, which will playback anything up to DSD512 and sounds considerably better (before any accessories are considered) than the old system ever did, cost under $1000 even if the NAA box and three different software players are included.

 

For power conditioning (yes, it was ubiquitous back then just as it is now), I had an MIT power strip and an MIT Z-1, both of which I bought used for $400 each (a considerable discount from the new price). I also had several MIT power cords at $100 each.

 

These days I still have the Z-1. The MIT power strip has been retired, and I'm using two power strips made in China that cost $140 each. I'm using a couple of Mapleshade power cords that I think were around $150 each (the newer design being sold now is close to $200). So in terms of system-wide power conditioning the prices are pretty near equal, though of course we are talking 1990s dollars versus today's.

 

Then I've got the El Cheapo for $62; the B&K iso transformer for $96; the Regen for $175; the LPS-1 for $380; and a second Mapleshade USB cable after the Regen for $135. (I could have used a couple of solid adapters for a couple of bucks, but I wanted to try the second Mapleshade, and I liked it.) I would have been happy to purchase these for my SPDIF rig had they (or their SPDIF equivalents) been available. Together they've cost just under $850. Probably the closest parallel, in terms of something that provided a clean source to the DAC, would have been the Laser Linque for $800 (in early 1990s dollars).

 

Thus even without considering inflation, the newer system's power conditioning and accessories about equal the price of the old, and with the price of the components themselves there's absolutely no comparison - a quarter the price for greatly expanded playback capability and far better sound. (If you want to take inflation into account, $100 in 1991 equates to about $175 today.)

 

So at least for me, async USB has not involved much difference in cost of accessories or power conditioning (what difference there is when inflation is taken into account is in favor of the new system), and has allowed me to achieve much better sound for far less money spent on basic components than was possible with my old SPDIF system.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical to EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> ISO Regen -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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So at least for me, async USB has not involved much difference in cost of accessories or power conditioning (what difference there is when inflation is taken into account is in favor of the new system), and has allowed me to achieve much better sound for far less money spent on basic components than was possible with my old SPDIF system.

 

Hi Jud

I think that quite a few members can relate to those experiences, but the cost reduction is due mainly to cheap Asian manufacturing. I too, had 3 Laser Disc players over a period of years back then, and eventually gave the last one to a friend along with around 100 Laser discs. The fact that it used Coax SPDIF back then had nothing to do with it. Technology has improved in leaps and bounds since then, although cost cutting has nobbled coax SPDIF performance to some extent, as very few manufacturers use transformers for isolation these days. Some years back it was fairly common for the DIY people to retrofit a coax SPDIF transformer. At least I didn't need to do that with my old Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 as it used a "text book" digital implementation. Later models from Musical Fidelity did away with the Coax SPDIF transformers. Neither has the change to cheap RCA sockets for digital use helped matters. In fact, my highly modified X-DAC V3 that I use with my P.C. in conjunction with an Asus Xonar D2X internal soundcard via Coax SPDIF , due to that original " text book" design approach will readily outperform many modern well regarded DACs.

 

I imagine that you probably also had a DAT Player back then too , and perhaps even a Nakamichi cassette deck , or other similar high performance cassette deck ?

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

To put the whole lot more into perspective, look at the prices of colour TVs back then, and now. My old 1997 3.0L Mitsubishi Magna cost me just under Au$30K back then, but 19 years later I can get an equivalent vehicle with heaps of modern technology thrown in ,for about the same price.

 

ttoco4.jpg

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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My implementation of this PCB to power my UTA Regen...

 

You must be watching every penny too ? (grin)

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Perhaps Plissken, yourself , and several others should try reading the many explanatory posts by well respected E.E. John Swenson in the sponsored area of the forum ?

If USB for Audio was anywhere near as good as you "experts" claim, then 1,000's of CA members wouldn't have invested so heavily in better USB cables, Intona USB Isolators, USB Regens etc. ,markedly improved power supplies and special mains isolation transformers ?

 

 

 

+1

 

 

John's been challenged by no fewer than 4 other fellow EE's at Whats Best Forum. Also, and this is serious food for thought, Alex was asked to perform a bias controlled test. He said yes and Amir offered to fly out. Alex abruptly ceased posting there.

 

It's all in the public record.

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John's been challenged by no fewer than 4 other fellow EE's at Whats Best Forum. Also, and this is serious food for thought, Alex was asked to perform a bias controlled test. He said yes and Amir offered to fly out. Alex abruptly ceased posting there.

 

It's all in the public record.

 

 

The more than >3,000 people who purchased the Regen's don't give a stuff what Amir, yourself, and a handful of other members and jealous EEs from elsewhere believe about whether the USB Regen works as described or not . In case you haven't noticed, there are now other independently designed items that perform a similar function.The remarkable thing is that the original Regen achieved all those sales due to positive word of mouth reports, and without any advertisements.

Apparently, not everybody is as stupid and gullible as you seem to believe they are, and trust their ears more than dodgy and irrelevant measurements performed by so called "experts" with an axe to grind.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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The more than >3,000 people who purchased the Regen's don't give a stuff what Amir, yourself, and a handful of other members and jealous EEs from elsewhere believe about whether the USB Regen works as described or not . In case you haven't noticed, there are now other independently designed items that perform a similar function.The remarkable thing is that the original Regen achieved all those sales due to positive word of mouth reports, and without any advertisements.

Apparently, not everybody is as stupid and gullible as you seem to believe they are, and trust their ears more than dodgy and irrelevant measurements performed by so called "experts" with an axe to grind.

 

I treat the 3K number bandied about with the same seriousness that I gave to Alex standing behind his product. The other EE's aren't jealous. They are curious how UpTone develops product when they didn't even has so much as a laboratory grade audio analyzer to work with.

 

Bottom line is Alex up and disappeared like a fart on the wind when someone said they would fly out. I trust the UpTone as much as Alex does I guess.

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John's been challenged by no fewer than 4 other fellow EE's at Whats Best Forum. Also, and this is serious food for thought, Alex was asked to perform a bias controlled test. He said yes and Amir offered to fly out. Alex abruptly ceased posting there.

 

It's all in the public record.

 

4 other fellow EE's on WBF? I'm on WBF too, so who are they?

 

If Amir is your reference, you're as much of a troll as he is.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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I treat the 3K number bandied about with the same seriousness that I gave to Alex standing behind his product. The other EE's aren't jealous. They are curious how UpTone develops product when they didn't even has so much as a laboratory grade audio analyzer to work with.

 

Bottom line is Alex up and disappeared like a fart on the wind when someone said they would fly out. I trust the UpTone as much as Alex does I guess.

 

Who cares what you believe ? I don't blame Alex C for not wishing to humour an upstart like Amir by wasting precious production time on him when he was having trouble keeping up with demand.

Could Amir have improved Uptone's sales if he came up with a positive report ? Most people except a few disciples like yourself wouldn't even know him from a bar of soap.

 

If Amir is your reference, you're as much of a troll as he is.

 

Most members already know that !

Perhaps Plissken should have waved his usual wad of cash around to make it worthwhile for Alex C to waste his time humouring the guy ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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4 other fellow EE's on WBF? I'm on WBF too, so who are they?

 

If Amir is your reference, you're as much of a troll as he is.

 

Amir is an E.E. Amir is also the Microsoft VP that birthed WASAPI and MS's current bit perfect audio stack. He's also written a book or two on Unix. So if you are attempting to hit him in the credentials you'll have to think again.

 

Here is the thread with the other EE's chiming in.

 

Knock yourself out.

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