Aerial 10T v2 versus Revel Studio2 ?

[jmdesignz2]

Getting the itch for new gear - Currently have Aerial 10T v2 and considering some Revel Studio 2 speakers ?

 

Or upgrade amps and DAC ?

[jcn3]

i think i would upgrade the amps -- my biggest regret is getting rid of my 10ts.

[semente]

Getting the itch for new gear - Currently have Aerial 10T v2 and considering some Revel Studio 2 speakers ?

 

Or upgrade amps and DAC ?

What are your complaints regarding the performance of the Aerials?

Do you think that those shortcomings could be addressed with the Revels?

 

R

[17629v2]

Getting the itch for new gear - Currently have Aerial 10T v2 and considering some Revel Studio 2 speakers ?

 

Or upgrade amps and DAC ?

 

If you don't have some type of goal or reference to try for, you'll just get something that sounds different than what you have now, but not necessarily better. The only thing I can tell you for sure about the 2 speakers, is that the Aerial's will play louder than the Revel's.

 

Looking at the system, I can tell you what I would do if it was my system. But keep in mind, we may both have different tastes, and disagree on what sounds "good". To me it looks like you can't decide if you want a pro system or an audiophile system. I would replace the Metric Halo. Many people would disagree with that because if you look at it, I'm sure it has good specs and features. For me, all that processing ans adjustment comes at a price. You're not in a recording studio. Also, and more important, is the analog section of the dac. For some reason, everyone seems to overlook it. I don't see why as its half the dac. If you can, try a dac that allows you to control volume. I good choice would be an Ayre Codex. It matches well with your amps. If you like the McCormack sound, Ayre takes it a step further. McCormack has a very nice, clear midrange. Ayre is even better in this regard, and it is also much more refined at the frequency extremes. As with any component, you'll still need to listen to it before you make a purchase, but you should like the Ayre. Looking at your system, it makes sense.

 

You may ask, how much of a difference will something like the Ayre make? I can only guess, but I would expect the differences to be major. I fully understand the type of differences a speaker change can make. They can be very large. If I thought that my suggestion was a tweak or small change, I wouldn't recommend it. You want to put your money where it will do the most good. I get that. So if you can, see if you can demo an Ayre dac in your system. If you don't have a local dealer, post. I know a few good ones and its possible that they may send you a demo unit for you to try first.

[jmdesignz2]

@17629v2 - thanks for the suggestions and info. I am considering a Codex but more towards the Exasound E28 for multi channel.

 

Why do you say the Aerials will play louder than the Revels?

 

The full range tower Revel Studio 2 specs show it should play just as loud.

However, to address your question - I am looking for I believe some more treble refinement and larger scale dynamic handling as the Aerials seem to congest and lack dynamics on large complicated orchestral movements.

 

Yes, my amps are on dedicated 20amp outlet. The rest of the system is running off another dedicated 20 amp outlet.

Perhaps I should run another dedicated 20amp so I have one for each mono-block?

[kennyb123]

Getting the itch for new gear - Currently have Aerial 10T v2 and considering some Revel Studio 2 speakers ?

 

Or upgrade amps and DAC ?

 

Place Stillpoints Ultras under your 10Ts and you will realize you hadn't yet heard what this speaker is capable of. Then also get Stillpoints between the head and base sections. You will be blown away.

 

Sure these will cost more than the speakers are worth now. But you'd have to spend a lot more money to find a speaker that beats the 10Ts enhanced by Stillpoints.

 

I have the original 10Ts. Adding Stillpoints as I suggested above was one of the most significant upgrades I've done. The Stillpoints drain off extra energy that's blurring the sound. You'll hear a significant improvement in focus and dynamics - both micro and macro.

[semente]

Place Stillpoints Ultras under your 10Ts and you will realize you hadn't yet heard what this speaker is capable of. Then also get Stillpoints between the head and base sections. You will be blown away.

 

That's surely an understatement...

[17629v2]

"Why do you say the Aerials will play louder than the Revels?"

 

Just experience from hearing both speakers in different systems. Its common to use Aerial's in high end HT systems. They just have the ability to play very loud under harsh conditions than most other speakers. Revel is just a different kind of speaker. You can use them in a HT setup, but they're not the kind of speaker that you can beat on.

 

That said, unless you are going to have a situation like I just described, either speaker should be more than loud enough for anyone listening at sane volume levels. To be honest, I only used the volume example as a cue to get some more detailed info from you as to what you need to achieve from the upgrade.

 

"I am looking for I believe some more treble refinement and larger scale dynamic handling as the Aerials seem to congest and lack dynamics on large complicated orchestral movements."

 

That's much more helpful. The only problem is, the issue may not lie with your speakers. Any component in the system can give you treble refinement issues. As for dynamics, you need to go a little deeper. Some type of dynamics come from power and volume, and other types (dynamic contrast) doesn't. You need to differentiate the 2. Dynamic contrast is not the type of volume change you get from an increase in power and control. Its how well a system handles volume changes within a given range. To envision what I'm talking about, think of an orchestra. Dynamic contrast is best heard when listening to a quiet passage and then have a quick attack of louder, sharper instruments. To here this, the system doesn't have to be playing loud. (You can actually hear it much better at normal volumes). Its often described as a jump, or jump factor. You feel that jump in range. If your system isn't capable of this type of dynamic, the opposite is usually a smooth, polite sound. Some people prefer it. Actually, Revel/Levinson systems are known for being on the polite side of the spectrum.

 

Taking the above into consideration, that's why I recommended the Ayre. Ayre is exceptional at dynamic contrast. Pro gear is not. Up to this point, its a quality that I've only seen in high end home gear. You're amps aren't the best at this, but they are pretty good. I do, however, see the treble as possibly amp related. He does a great job with the midrange but the treble on McCormack amps can be a bit aggressive. Your speakers, of course, will pass that right along because they're very detailed.

 

So, that's why I said in my first post that you need to demo. You're dealing with components that are not cheap, and are very revealing. There's too much risk in buying stuff unheard. At this level, its much easier to make a mistake than an improvement,

[kennyb123]

However, to address your question - I am looking for I believe some more treble refinement and larger scale dynamic handling as the Aerials seem to congest and lack dynamics on large complicated orchestral movements.

 

Dynamics are the greatest strength of my 10Ts. That congestion is not the fault of your speakers.

 

Treble refinement is partly a fault of the speakers - but it can be corrected. All that bass energy delivered to the head section really takes a toll on treble and midrange refinement. As I mentioned above, Stillpoints really help in this application

 

I also just got a huge bump in treble clarity by addressing power. That's why I said it's only partly the fault of the speaker. But I would address resonance control first. Too much is being obscured now.

[jmdesignz2]

@17629v2 - that does make sense.

 

I still have a Bryston 4BSST that I compared the McCormack DNA1 Dlx monoblocks to and preferred the DNA's due to the much more palpably real mid-range that gave cellos and other wood bodied instruments the correct sound.

 

I would not say the system is smooth or polite, it is capable of dynamic attack. It was not as dynamic as with the Bryston so perhaps I need to step up my amps instead of the speakers... However, since the Aerial 10T's are such a demanding load; changing to more efficient speakers could have a similar effect. Revel Ultima Studio2's are 89-90dB/W/m and don't dip much below 4ohms. The Aerial 10T's are known to be difficult 4-3ohm and below and only 86dB/W/m efficiency.

 

Wonder what the system will sound like with MF KWA750 amp + Codex or Exasound E28?

[jmdesignz2]

Dynamics are the greatest strength of my 10Ts. That congestion is not the fault of your speakers.

 

Treble refinement is partly a fault of the speakers - but it can be corrected. All that bass energy delivered to the head section really takes a toll on treble and midrange refinement. As I mentioned above, Stillpoints really help in this application

 

I also just got a huge bump in treble clarity by addressing power. That's why I said it's only partly the fault of the speaker. But I would address resonance control first. Too much is being obscured now.

 

I believe I have addressed resonance control - the Aerial heads have the internal rod removed and are sitting on sorbothane pucks. The base is spiked on the Aerial specific sound anchor stands. All sitting on berber over concrete foundation. Spikes go through to the concrete.

[kennyb123]

I believe I have addressed resonance control - the Aerial heads have the internal rod removed and are sitting on sorbothane pucks. The base is spiked on the Aerial specific sound anchor stands. All sitting on berber over concrete foundation. Spikes go through to the concrete.

 

My guess is that energy will be reflected back into the speakers by spiking them directly to concrete. I bet the heads of your speakers are wobbling on those sorbothane pucks, and this is muddying up your treble and midrange.

 

Since adding Stillpoints, my 10Ts stop and start on a dime. Dynamics are as stunning - I'm not sure that I've ever heard better from any speaker. My Spectral amp helps as it's very fast with great fidelity to both the leading and trailing edge of transients.

 

I have several times upgraded the Stillpoints. I started with their cones both under the speakers and under the heads. This was significant but moving to the stainless Ultras helped to more quickly drain energy. I was using Ultra Minis under the heads but a month or so ago swapped them for their big brother the Ultra SS. This was profound. It doesn't get more rigid than that concrete head, but the head needs to rest on a stable platform to take advantage of that rigidity. That head section can do a remarkable job with micro dynamics. And I think that's one of the most important things to get right to make music sound alive.

 

Probably the thing most holding back the 10T from being competitive with speakers twice its price is that bass cabinet. It just doesn't deal well with all the energy generated by the woofer. Stillpoints drain off that energy and get the 10Ts to perform at a much higher level. You should borrow some from the Cable Company. I really do think you will be stunned by how much better your 10Ts are then you realized.

[jmdesignz2]

@kennyb123 - are you using your 10T's with the SoundAnchor stands?

 

My 10T's are bolted to the Sound Anchor stands which in turn are spiked into the concrete foundation/ floor.

 

What kind of floor do you have?

 

I think that coupling the speakers to the concrete foundation makes their effective mass increase. Which is why all high end speakers I know of are heavy and spiked.

 

My guess is that energy will be reflected back into the speakers by spiking them directly to concrete. I bet the heads of your speakers are wobbling on those sorbothane pucks, and this is muddying up your treble and midrange.

 

Since adding Stillpoints, my 10Ts stop and start on a dime. Dynamics are as stunning - I'm not sure that I've ever heard better from any speaker. My Spectral amp helps as it's very fast with great fidelity to both the leading and trailing edge of transients.

 

I have several times upgraded the Stillpoints. I started with their cones both under the speakers and under the heads. This was significant but moving to the stainless Ultras helped to more quickly drain energy. I was using Ultra Minis under the heads but a month or so ago swapped them for their big brother the Ultra SS. This was profound. It doesn't get more rigid than that concrete head, but the head needs to rest on a stable platform to take advantage of that rigidity. That head section can do a remarkable job with micro dynamics. And I think that's one of the most important things to get right to make music sound alive.

 

Probably the thing most holding back the 10T from being competitive with speakers twice its price is that bass cabinet. It just doesn't deal well with all the energy generated by the woofer. Stillpoints drain off that energy and get the 10Ts to perform at a much higher level. You should borrow some from the Cable Company. I really do think you will be stunned by how much better your 10Ts are then you realized.

[kennyb123]

@kennyb123 - are you using your 10T's with the SoundAnchor stands?

 

My 10T's are bolted to the Sound Anchor stands which in turn are spiked into the concrete foundation/ floor.

 

What kind of floor do you have?

 

I think that coupling the speakers to the concrete foundation makes their effective mass increase. Which is why all high end speakers I know of are heavy and spiked.

 

I sold the Sound Anchor stands after moving to Stillpoints. Sprung floor here now, but I have heard from friends who were amazed of the improvements with Stillpoints over directly spiking to concrete.

 

You are right that all high end speakers are heavy and spiked, but that doesn't mean they won't be improved by Stillpoints.

 

Check out some reviews on the Stillpoints site and you will see that they were mostly tried with expensive high end speakers. Example:

 

http://stillpoints.us/index.php/news/reviews-3/professionals/107-harley-nov2011

 

I have had my 10Ts since the late 90s - longer than any other component. They've moved with me five times. I started with the original Sound Anchors stands but eventually swapped them for the lower profile stands. Flooring has been both concrete and sprung. All that time I've pretty much always enjoyed the 10Ts, but it was only after introducing the Stillpoints that they started really surprising me. I'm now getting fast and dynamic bass and clarity and speed in the upper frequencies that wasn't even hinted at previously. And I have also seen the exact same problems you reported totally vanish.

 

That you expressed concerns about dynamics and treble refinement lead me to suggesting Stillpoints, as those areas were significantly improved by them.

[jmdesignz2]

Kennyb123 - thanks for the info

 

Which stillpoints exactly are you using and how? Would you mind sharing photos of your set up?

 

I changed out the sorbathane pads under the heads and switched to 3 ball bearings per head and I think I noticed a difference in treble refinement. More listening is required

[kennyb123]

jmdesignz2 said:

Which stillpoints exactly are you using and how? Would you mind sharing photos of your set up?

 

I have three of the Ultra SS shown here arranged under the heads.

 

A set of four Ultra SS can be tucked away under the speaker base by attaching them directly with a 1/4-20 threaded stud. Both the Ultra SS and the 10Ts have 1/4-20 threaded inserts, which makes it easy.

 

 

The Ultra SS aren't cheap, but I think they more than deliver the goods. The less expensive Ultra Minis helped under the heads too, but weren't nearly as effective as their big brothers. You can always start with the Minis and then later upgrade.

 

I hope this helps.

[jmdesignz2]

Thanks - very good info

 

I believe the stillpoints are captured ball bearing design?

[kennyb123]

I believe the stillpoints are captured ball bearing design?

 

That's correct.

 

This describes their original cone:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6655668

 

This design has evolved in their latest products. Good background here:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/stillpoints.htm

[17629v2]

@17629v2 - that does make sense.

 

I still have a Bryston 4BSST that I compared the McCormack DNA1 Dlx monoblocks to and preferred the DNA's due to the much more palpably real mid-range that gave cellos and other wood bodied instruments the correct sound.

 

I would not say the system is smooth or polite, it is capable of dynamic attack. It was not as dynamic as with the Bryston so perhaps I need to step up my amps instead of the speakers... However, since the Aerial 10T's are such a demanding load; changing to more efficient speakers could have a similar effect. Revel Ultima Studio2's are 89-90dB/W/m and don't dip much below 4ohms. The Aerial 10T's are known to be difficult 4-3ohm and below and only 86dB/W/m efficiency.

 

Wonder what the system will sound like with MF KWA750 amp + Codex or Exasound E28?

 

I may have something for you. Whatever the problem is, it should be clear that its risky to buy anything unheard. Like I said before, its much easier for you to make a mistake at this level. After reading everything, I still feel the source is the major concern. But I could be wrong, and so can anyone else here, no matter how well meaning we all are.

 

I suggest you call The Cable Company. I'm sure you've heard of them and their demo program. The Stillpoints came up a number of times, and from the comments it seems like it would be worthwhile to demo some. Cable Company sells them and I'm sure they can send you some to try. From what I can see, they're not cheap so it makes sense to try them first. As far as my recommendation of the Ayre Codex, it still stands. But Cable Company doesn't sell Ayre. They do, however, sell Wadia. I own pieces from both companies, and find them to be fairly similar overall. Both companies are very good at delivering dynamic contrast like I was talking about before. Wadia came out with a new dac recently, the 321. Its a bit more expensive than the Ayre, but its just as good, if not better (at least I think so). Have CC send you one of those, as well. Taking that path will not only eliminate a great deal of risk, you'll learn a lot about where you need to go with your system.

[kennyb123]

I suggest you call The Cable Company. I'm sure you've heard of them and their demo program. The Stillpoints came up a number of times, and from the comments it seems like it would be worthwhile to demo some. Cable Company sells them and I'm sure they can send you some to try. From what I can see, they're not cheap so it makes sense to try them first.

 

Excellent advice

[jmdesignz2]

I have three of the Ultra SS shown here arranged under the heads.

 

A set of four Ultra SS can be tucked away under the speaker base by attaching them directly with a 1/4-20 threaded stud. Both the Ultra SS and the 10Ts have 1/4-20 threaded inserts, which makes it easy.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29868[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]29867[/ATTACH]

 

The Ultra SS aren't cheap, but I think they more than deliver the goods. The less expensive Ultra Minis helped under the heads too, but weren't nearly as effective as their big brothers. You can always start with the Minis and then later upgrade.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Those pics actually make me think that the Ultra SS are having another effect other than their design intent. In the review of the Aerial 10T's the measurements showed if the heads were too low there would be a marked difference in the frequency response experienced at the listening position. By using much taller supports, this would reduce this effect and smoothen the response / make it more accurate.

[kennyb123]

Those pics actually make me think that the Ultra SS are having another effect other than their design intent. In the review of the Aerial 10T's the measurements showed if the heads were too low there would be a marked difference in the frequency response experienced at the listening position. By using much taller supports, this would reduce this effect and smoothen the response / make it more accurate.

 

The frequency balance does change slightly with height. I prefer the balance with the midrange drivers at ear height. I have that now.

 

I thought the lower profile Sound Anchor stands were an improvement over the original ones because they brought the height of the midrange down closer ear level. I've maintained just about that same height with the Stillpoints as they are now in place. I absolutely love the frequency balance right now. My 10Ts have never sounded better. Imaging and soundstaging has never been better. Dynamics are as good as I've heard from any speaker.

[kennyb123]

I was reminded of the first time I tried the original Stillpoints cones with my 10Ts. There was actually a downside initially as I became aware of a coloration impacting my turntable. At the time my table sat on one of those Symposium shelves. The Stillpoints cleaned things up so much that I was actually was able to hear that the stainless steel surface was reflecting energy back into my table and causing that coloration. Prior to the Stillpoints that was obscured due to all the blurring.

 

Of course on the flip side, the Stillpoints allowed me to hear more of the good stuff from both of my digital and analog sources, with all kinds of previously-obscured details made much easier to hear.

[Kevin M.]

You will be very happy if you move to a speaker with a more modern tweeter. While changes to other components may improve the sound, nothing will give you true refinement which is why Aerial moved to different tweeters. It's a great speaker the 10t but the sound of the tweeter is dated.Not sure what I would recommend but most of the more current designs will offer considerable improvement in mostly that one area. That's the only real flaw of the speaker.

[jmdesignz2]

Also, in the review; it was noted that the drivers were not time-aligned. Tweeter arrives first, followed closely by the mid-range and then a bit later the woofer. Exact time values were not given but perhaps some further tweaks could be beneficial from moving the heads back a bit further / tilting the whole speaker back more?