UltraCap™ LPS-1 Troubleshooting, system grounding, etc.

[earnmyturns]

Two LPS-1s, both powering microRendus, both with the default Meanwell wall warts on garden-variety Tripp Lite Isobar Ultra surge protectors powered by standard house outlets. Can't hear anything even close by, or as electrical interference.

[JohnSwenson]

Yeah, John had chimed in previously that he suspected noise finding its way into the interconnects through unshielded interconnects, produced from the Meanwell unit. I had unplugged my interconnects from amp and found the noise to be gone, so suspected he was right. And I believe I posted so on one of these threads.

 

However, I have subsequently done a bit more experimentation. I plugged the Meanwell into a completely different outlet in the room, and with the Meanwell brick as far away from the LPS-1, and the LPS-1 as far away from the main system as any of the cords would allow. I still get the noise through my speakers. And at the same volume as when they were closer to the system. It should be quieter if John's explanation was the complete story, right?

 

And as for your "agree to disagree" statement - that's kind of ridiculous. You're basically telling me I'm completely making up something I'm very clearly hearing!! Well, maybe I'll just have to make a quick video of the phenomenon and post it on youtube or something to prove that I'm not making something up.

 

It's not a loud click or anything, but with my head within about 12 inches of the unit, it can be heard. And with ear up to the unit, I can hear the supercaps charging.

 

Hi Ben,

I'm sorry for not replying sooner, with what is happening in my life right it is going be be days between visits to the forums.

 

I want to try and narrow down what you are hearing, just to get it clear in my mind.

 

Are the clicks coming from the speakers, or from the LPS-1 box itself? (or both)

 

The "ping pong" rate changes with load current, ie with different load currents the time between bank switches changes. Higher load current produces shorter time between bank switches. Could you try different loads and see if that does in fact happen with the clicks. For example a REGEN not power anything will probably have 30 seconds or more between switching but something like the FMC might be 4-5 seconds.

 

If this is coming through the speakers, do you have a preamp in the system? (I think I read that in one of your posts, I just want to be sure), This is rather important, there are some very strange leakage loops that can happen through preamps that can wind up significantly magnifying things happening in the system. Some of these bypass the volume control so even if the volume is turned down it is theoretically possible for high gain to happen.

 

You might have a situation where leakage current from the feeder supply is forming a loop through the preamp. Since the feeder supply sees the current ramp up as the caps are being charged you might be hearing how it deals with things. A test for this is to listen to the "charging sound" and see if it sounds the same with either the meanWell or the other supply. If it does sound the same this is not likely to be the source.

 

Let's see what the answers are to these questions and we'll go from there.

 

Thanks,

 

John S.

[genjamon]

Hi Ben,

I'm sorry for not replying sooner, with what is happening in my life right it is going be be days between visits to the forums.

 

I want to try and narrow down what you are hearing, just to get it clear in my mind.

 

Are the clicks coming from the speakers, or from the LPS-1 box itself? (or both)

 

The "ping pong" rate changes with load current, ie with different load currents the time between bank switches changes. Higher load current produces shorter time between bank switches. Could you try different loads and see if that does in fact happen with the clicks. For example a REGEN not power anything will probably have 30 seconds or more between switching but something like the FMC might be 4-5 seconds.

 

If this is coming through the speakers, do you have a preamp in the system? (I think I read that in one of your posts, I just want to be sure), This is rather important, there are some very strange leakage loops that can happen through preamps that can wind up significantly magnifying things happening in the system. Some of these bypass the volume control so even if the volume is turned down it is theoretically possible for high gain to happen.

 

You might have a situation where leakage current from the feeder supply is forming a loop through the preamp. Since the feeder supply sees the current ramp up as the caps are being charged you might be hearing how it deals with things. A test for this is to listen to the "charging sound" and see if it sounds the same with either the meanWell or the other supply. If it does sound the same this is not likely to be the source.

 

Let's see what the answers are to these questions and we'll go from there.

 

Thanks,

 

John S.

 

Hi John, thanks for the message. The clicks are coming from the actual LPS-1 boxes/chassis. Right now, I have to have my ear within a few inches of the chassis to hear them. And, yes, they vary in time between clicks depending on load. Yesterday, I used a stopwatch. 5 seconds for the FMC, with LPS-1 on 5V setting, and FMC pulling about 1A. 7 seconds when I put the LPS-1 to 7V mode, powering the same FMC. Around 30 seconds spacing when there is no load on the LPS-1.

 

The sound of the click itself isn't so much of a very clean and precise "click", it's more of a quiet "clunk" or "thunk". And I also noticed that when the device goes from its initial charge-up sequence and transitions to providing power to the device, there's a very quick triple-"clunk" as it engages the power.

 

I do not use a preamp. I have a Lampizator Big7 DAC with an internal volume control, running directly into a Line Magnetic 518ia, into it's direct line-in which bypasses the volume control pot. However, the preamp stage in the Line Magnetic is still active in this configuration - it just bypasses the volume control pot itself.

 

The sounds I have heard through my speakers are a combination of the "charging sound" and the clicking bank switching sound - although it doesn't sound the same as what I have heard coming from the LPS-1 chassis itself. It's a more digitized kind of sound. And I have not heard these sounds through the speakers while using linear power supplies as feeder supplies. Only with the Meanwell, and with the iFi iPower device I also have on hand.

 

These are very quiet sounds - I can only hear them with ear close to tweeter with no music playing. However, I feel like it affects listening quality - adding a subtle digititus to high frequency sounds in music. Music is just not as relaxed and realistic when these SMPS's are used as feeders, which I attribute to these low level sounds being present. The effect is definitely in the subtle category, and I admit it's possible there's some placebo at work. But it's one of those things that makes the difference between the music being pleasant, and being toe-tapping engaging. Subtle, and hard to say for certain in a conscious sense, but there are all these other cues about the listening experience that tell me something's different. So, I've just been using a linear power supply as feeder, and all is well when this is the case.

 

Again, I've been very pleased with the benefits these LPS-1's provide, even with these tiny attributes. My main concern in pressing these issues is that they deviate from some of the claims that have been made about these devices. It very well could be particular aspects of my system at play here, and that's what I've chalked these issues up to until now, and why I haven't pressed to return the LPS-1's for diagnostics. However, if the "clicking" really shouldn't be occurring at all and is a sign of potential faulty performance, I will certainly return for diagnostics and repair/replacement.

 

Regards,

Ben

[ecwl]

Hmmm. Really funky. I wonder if it's some weird interaction between SMPS (Meanwell/iFi) and Zenwave SurgeX power conditioner and your DAC. Does the problem go away if you replace the SurgeX with a regular power bar? Or if you plug everything in the SurgeX into a regular power bar and then plug that power bar into the SurgeX? Just curious.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[genjamon]

I've had the issue with the Meanwell/iFi directly into the wall, and not the SurgeX. Although it's there when SMPS's are into the SurgeX too.

[JohnSwenson]

Hi John, thanks for the message. The clicks are coming from the actual LPS-1 boxes/chassis. Right now, I have to have my ear within a few inches of the chassis to hear them. And, yes, they vary in time between clicks depending on load. Yesterday, I used a stopwatch. 5 seconds for the FMC, with LPS-1 on 5V setting, and FMC pulling about 1A. 7 seconds when I put the LPS-1 to 7V mode, powering the same FMC. Around 30 seconds spacing when there is no load on the LPS-1.

 

The sound of the click itself isn't so much of a very clean and precise "click", it's more of a quiet "clunk" or "thunk". And I also noticed that when the device goes from its initial charge-up sequence and transitions to providing power to the device, there's a very quick triple-"clunk" as it engages the power.

 

I do not use a preamp. I have a Lampizator Big7 DAC with an internal volume control, running directly into a Line Magnetic 518ia, into it's direct line-in which bypasses the volume control pot. However, the preamp stage in the Line Magnetic is still active in this configuration - it just bypasses the volume control pot itself.

 

The sounds I have heard through my speakers are a combination of the "charging sound" and the clicking bank switching sound - although it doesn't sound the same as what I have heard coming from the LPS-1 chassis itself. It's a more digitized kind of sound. And I have not heard these sounds through the speakers while using linear power supplies as feeder supplies. Only with the Meanwell, and with the iFi iPower device I also have on hand.

 

These are very quiet sounds - I can only hear them with ear close to tweeter with no music playing. However, I feel like it affects listening quality - adding a subtle digititus to high frequency sounds in music. Music is just not as relaxed and realistic when these SMPS's are used as feeders, which I attribute to these low level sounds being present. The effect is definitely in the subtle category, and I admit it's possible there's some placebo at work. But it's one of those things that makes the difference between the music being pleasant, and being toe-tapping engaging. Subtle, and hard to say for certain in a conscious sense, but there are all these other cues about the listening experience that tell me something's different. So, I've just been using a linear power supply as feeder, and all is well when this is the case.

 

Again, I've been very pleased with the benefits these LPS-1's provide, even with these tiny attributes. My main concern in pressing these issues is that they deviate from some of the claims that have been made about these devices. It very well could be particular aspects of my system at play here, and that's what I've chalked these issues up to until now, and why I haven't pressed to return the LPS-1's for diagnostics. However, if the "clicking" really shouldn't be occurring at all and is a sign of potential faulty performance, I will certainly return for diagnostics and repair/replacement.

 

Regards,

Ben

 

Thanks for the details, that really helps me understand what is going on.

 

As far as the sounds from the unit itself, there are two inductors inside which can theoretically cause some sound, but I have only heard this once with a very early prototype that was severely overloading the inductors, this does not happen with the current version.

 

One possibility is that the very low level vibrations from these inductors are being amplified by the case resonances. How are you mounting the case? Sitting on its rubber feet or mounted in some other fashion? One thing you can try is to hold the LPS-1 in your hand and see if you hear the same thing. Your hand will tend to damp the aluminum case resonances which should change the sound if indeed the case is part of the issue.

 

The inductors in the LPS-1 were very carefully chosen, the parts of the inductors (cores, wires etc) are potted in a material which dramatically reduces movement (hence acoustic noise), transfers heat from the structures to the outer surface and provides electrical and magnetic shielding. This should keep acoustic output to a low enough level that no human should be able to hear it.

 

On the sound from the speaker, yes the SMPS do inject a small amount of noise into the AC line which can get picked up by other devices, it is sufficiently low enough that is not an issue in most systems. LPS do this as well, but the spectrum is usually very different.

 

My experience is that in most systems the SQ degradations from SMPS are caused by leakage current not the actual noise injected back into the AC mains, so the LPS-1 will usually eliminate SQ issues caused by an SMPS powering it, but that is not ALWAYS going to be the case, you seem to have found one of those few cases.

 

John S.

[Superdad]

The clicks are coming from the actual LPS-1 boxes/chassis. Right now, I have to have my ear within a few inches of the chassis to hear them. And, yes, they vary in time between clicks depending on load. Yesterday, I used a stopwatch. 5 seconds for the FMC, with LPS-1 on 5V setting, and FMC pulling about 1A. 7 seconds when I put the LPS-1 to 7V mode, powering the same FMC. Around 30 seconds spacing when there is no load on the LPS-1.

 

The sound of the click itself isn't so much of a very clean and precise "click", it's more of a quiet "clunk" or "thunk". And I also noticed that when the device goes from its initial charge-up sequence and transitions to providing power to the device, there's a very quick triple-"clunk" as it engages the power.

 

Hi Ben:

 

Have you mailed the units back to us yet? Please be sure to include the Mean Well charging supplies so that I can inspect those too. As mentioned in e-mail, I could not hear the clicks in the YouTube video link you posted--even with headphones and the volume turned way up. Could be the nasty cold I've had since Thursday--hard to hear much of anything, which is too bad as I was planning some end of year listening/upgrading sessions (a Holo Spring Level 3 DAC gets delivered Wednesday!).

 

I am going to be very interested in examining your units since you say they make those sounds both under load and not under load. And yet the units we have here and those with others in the field don't exhibit the problem. So I do expect there is some sort of defect.

 

We'll continue this discussion off-line, and after I can test your units here I'll report back the findings.

 

Thanks,

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S. One can clearly see that John and I do not coordinate our postings! Bizarre that we both happened to be writing replies at the exact same time. He must be writing at lunchtime from the chip company he is retiring from on Wednesday--after 33 years of crazy-advanced, bowels-of-the-chip engineering. This audio stuff--other than when he makes it really complicated such as with the LPS-1--must be like kindergarten for him in comparison. Though sound and perception is a tricky affair...

[d_elm]

To reduce noise injection into the AC supply I have put a power strip on an AC-7, see URL https://www.arraysolutions.com/index.php?_route_=ac-7

 

and plug the few SMPSs into the strip. Perhaps an experiment, without the AC-7, would be to connect a strip of SMPSs to another circuit.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[genjamon]

Interesting thought about the AC-7. I do have one of those units. Can't remember if I tried using it for this purpose before - maybe I'll try tonight. I did bring the LPS-1's to work with me with intent of mailing them on my way home, but I didn't bring the Meanwell unit. I'll have to grab that at home tonight, and mail the package tomorrow. This will give me a chance to try the AC-7 as well this evening.

[Superdad]

Hi John, thanks for the message. The clicks are coming from the actual LPS-1 boxes/chassis. Right now, I have to have my ear within a few inches of the chassis to hear them.

 

Hi Ben:

 

Received your package with your two LPS-1 units and the Chinese ZeroZone 9V/2.7A LPS.

 

To hear any clicks coming from your LPS-1 boxes I had to turn off my already very quiet fanless hard drives in my extremely quiet room, and stack one LPS-1 on top the the other. With my ear 1/2-inch from the chassis, near the front, I could hear the faintest of ticks at regular intervals (I used a REGEN feeding an iFi micro iDSD to load it so it would switch banks)--if I held my breath! My wristwatch held at twice the distance (1-inch) ticks louder than what I can hear from the LPS-1. I think John said it could be the inductor.

 

So you definitely got me: The LPS-1 is NOT 100% silent. But even a very quiet relay would be at least 5 times louder.

 

Your units test fine in every respect.

 

As for the supposed 9V/2.7A Chinese power supply: I am afraid you got taken. While it looks nice, it performs miserably. Regulation is terrible, and it does not come anywhere close to delivering its rated power. Here is the photo proof:

 

 

 

As you can see, at 2.0A it was putting out less than 7.7V; at 2.5A you get less than 5.6V; and at 3A (I thought that's what it was rated at until I just looked it up with your eBay link) it pretty well gives up and outputs 3.6V.

 

Sadly, we do see this with a lot of the $80-200 LPS units coming out of China.

 

I'll get in touch with you via private e-mail and will ship everything back to you this coming week.

 

Have a great holiday weekend!

 

--Alex C.

[genjamon]

Thanks for sharing all this information, Alex. Holiday events, a birthday, and then my wedding on Friday pretty much required me to check out completely from audio and online stuff since before Christmas.

 

It's great to know what the ZeroZone is actually capable of, so thanks for doing those measurements. I received the package this morning, and will be anxious to have the LPS-1's back in the system. For what it's worth, I agree the clicks are very quiet. I never claimed the clicks were a problem. I had simply noticed them as I was inspecting the LPS-1's close-up in trying to determine why I was hearing high frequency noise through the speakers. And when I mentioned them, you were the one who said there should be zero clicking and that it was a possible sign of a defect. I'm glad John was able to chime in with a plausible explanation for them, and that everything checks out in terms of their performance. It's still strange to me that out of so many hundreds of units in the field, I'm the only one who has heard any high frequency noise through their speakers using the Meanwell charging supply. I do have some sensitive tube electronics and high efficiency speakers, but would think there would be some others out there with equally sensitive stuff. But I guess it is what it is.

 

Thanks again for the quality products and service.

 

Regards,

Ben

[Superdad]

Thanks again for the quality products and service.

 

Happy New Year Ben. As my junior high shop teacher used to tell me: You are a gentlemen and a scholar--and there aren't many of us left!

[mozes]

Thanks for sharing all this information, Alex. Holiday events, a birthday, and then my wedding on Friday pretty much required me to check out completely from audio and online stuff since before Christmas.

 

It's great to know what the ZeroZone is actually capable of, so thanks for doing those measurements. I received the package this morning, and will be anxious to have the LPS-1's back in the system. For what it's worth, I agree the clicks are very quiet. I never claimed the clicks were a problem. I had simply noticed them as I was inspecting the LPS-1's close-up in trying to determine why I was hearing high frequency noise through the speakers. And when I mentioned them, you were the one who said there should be zero clicking and that it was a possible sign of a defect. I'm glad John was able to chime in with a plausible explanation for them, and that everything checks out in terms of their performance. It's still strange to me that out of so many hundreds of units in the field, I'm the only one who has heard any high frequency noise through their speakers using the Meanwell charging supply. I do have some sensitive tube electronics and high efficiency speakers, but would think there would be some others out there with equally sensitive stuff. But I guess it is what it is.

 

Thanks again for the quality products and service.

 

Regards,

Ben

 

Hi Ben

 

I have been enjoying my LPS- 1 for a little less than 2 months and I only plugged it to my JS-2 for energizing. I heard absolutely zero noise in my speakers, but your post made me curious so I disconnected it from the JS-2 and looked for the meanwell charger to try. With some luck I found it and guess what... I heard a very slight buzzing noise in my tweeters but you have to get your ears to like 20 cm to hear it. With the JS-2 absolutely nothing. I have Naim btw.

Now back to the JS-2 and LpS-1 combination and the joy of listening to music.

 

Maybe this would make you feel better

 

Cheers

Moussa

[Superdad]

I have been enjoying my LPS- 1 for a little less than 2 months and I only plugged it to my JS-2 for energizing. I heard absolutely zero noise in my speakers, but your post made me curious so I disconnected it from the JS-2 and looked for the meanwell charger to try. With some luck I found it and guess what... I heard a very slight buzzing noise in my tweeters but you have to get your ears to like 20 cm to hear it. With the JS-2 absolutely nothing. I have Naim btw.

Now back to the JS-2 and LpS-1 combination and the joy of listening to music.

 

Hi Moussa:

 

As I think John mentioned upthread, what you experienced can only be from the input/charging side of the setup--most likely some radiation from the unshieled DC cable from the Mean Well to the LPS-1. Be sure that cable is not near any analog interconnects. The DC cables off the now unavailable earlier Mean Well supplies--the ones that shipped with the first 2,000 REGENs--were 16awg coax, as opposed to 16awg parallel "zip" cord. I wonder if those had less of a stray field.

 

In any case, the output of the LPS-1 is absolutely not effected by choice of "energizing"/charging supply. So what you and Ben--with his admittedly very sensitive electronics paired with high efficiency speakers--have experienced is about the only instance of reported downside to use of our supplied SMPS to power the fully isolated UltraCap LPS-1.

 

Regards,

--Alex C.

[mozes]

Hi Moussa:

 

As I think John mentioned upthread, what you experienced can only be from the input/charging side of the setup--most likely some radiation from the unshieled DC cable from the Mean Well to the LPS-1. Be sure that cable is not near any analog interconnects. The DC cables off the now unavailable earlier Mean Well supplies--the ones that shipped with the first 2,000 REGENs--were 16awg coax, as opposed to 16awg parallel "zip" cord. I wonder if those had less of a stray field.

 

In any case, the output of the LPS-1 is absolutely not effected by choice of "energizing"/charging supply. So what you and Ben--with his admittedly very sensitive electronics paired with high efficiency speakers--have experienced is about the only instance of reported downside to use of our supplied SMPS to power the fully isolated UltraCap LPS-1.

 

Regards,

--Alex C.

 

Hi Alex

 

Thanks for your tips and advice. I have absolutely no issues with my LPS-1 and I actually ordered a second one as well!

 

Waiting for the new 2017 gadgets from you

 

Rgs

Moussa

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[ElviaCaprice]

I need to combine two LPS-1's to power my Hugo DAC. One will be set to 5V, the other 3.3V. When I combine the two, solder the postives together and the negatives. All I get from the 3.3V LPS-1 is flashing red lights, it won't go green. How can I combine these two units so as to get 8.3V total? Where should I connect them at?

[lmitche]

You need to make serial connections. You have made a parallel connection.

 

You have three devices, two lps-1s and one chord Hugo. You need one wire between each making a triangle. Connect the hugos red + terminal to the red + terminal of one lps-1. Connect the hugos black - terminal to the black - terminal to the second lps-1. Connect the two lps-1s together using the remaining unused terminals, black to red.

[Superdad]

You need to make serial connections. You have made a parallel connection.

 

You have three devices, two lps-1s and one chord Hugo. You need one wire between each making a triangle. Connect the hugos red + terminal to the red + terminal of one lps-1. Connect the hugos black - terminal to the black - terminal to the second lps-1. Connect the two lps-1s together using the remaining unused terminals, black to red.

 

Larry is quite correct of course. In one othe threads here I recently posted a picture of a really easy to make series cable--one that does not require any soldering.

In fact, John and I used it (he has been visiting all week for some work and play) last night to provide 12V to power my Geek Pulse--and that was terrific.

[pl_svn]

Alex... question: do LPS-1 and Regen have inverted polarity protection?

you now... just in case! LOL

[kennyb123]

I need to combine two LPS-1's to power my Hugo DAC. One will be set to 5V, the other 3.3V. When I combine the two, solder the postives together and the negatives. All I get from the 3.3V LPS-1 is flashing red lights, it won't go green. How can I combine these two units so as to get 8.3V total? Where should I connect them at?

 

Why power the Hugo from an LPS-1? I thought the Hugo's SMPS only charges the battery, and the Hugo itself only draws power from the battery. I believe the battery already isolates the Hugo from the AC.

 

Do you hear a difference with Hugo running entirely off battery vs with SMPS charging it?

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[ElviaCaprice]

Thanks Larry, Superdad. Okay got the two LPS-1's combined and outputting 8.3 to 8.4 Volts. But, I am going to power my Hugo and it had two Lipo batteries each connected to different inputs on each side of the hugo board. How should I cross over these separate inputs to make one for the LPS-1's to inject power? I tried a parallel connection with the two inputs but that didn't work. Do these need to be in a series???

 

Okay, also I see (upon reading) I should have remained in parallel to get double the amperage at 7V, which is what I really need? I think? Depends on the above answer? Maybe I did that wrong to begin with and 1 LPS-1 would have sufficed?

[ElviaCaprice]

I should also add, that I had two single cell lipo batteries in the Hugo connected to the motherboard with their own inputs. Was told by Chord I could just link the two inputs and run my single source power supply to it. But it doesn't seem to work. Didn't work with one LPS-1 at 7V, would get blinking red lights with one green - not enough amperage. So I guess I should have done the two LPS-1s in parallel for more amperage at 7V?

In series I'm getting no response with 8.4V, lights are solid green on the LPS-1's, but no power up for the Hugo.

According to Chord 7V 1amp should work. Although ideal voltage is 8.1V and consumes 1.8 watts. ???

[ElviaCaprice]

Okay, I changed the two LPS-1s back to parallel, set both to 7V. Should be getting about 2.2A. Hooked them up to the hugo and turned it on, I get the underpowered 5 blinking red with one green on both units. I can't believe this DAC actually uses that much power. But it's asking for it. The Lipo battery can do nominally 3.75V with 2.2Ah X 2 batteries.

[pl_svn]

ok, no hp amp, no Bt, just one pair of SE outs but... weird: the 2Qute only needs .5A (at 12v)

[ElviaCaprice]

I wish Chord would be more helpful. There has to be a way to bypass those two battery inputs on the motherboard. Remember the Hugo has a preamp/headphone, whereas the 2Qute, no preamp.

Still, I've got to be doing something wrong.