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UltraCap™ LPS-1 Troubleshooting, system grounding, etc.


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OK, this talk about isolation transformers has gone far a field from my original intent. It was supposed to be about ways to decrease the effects of leakage loops.

 

The PRIMARY part was to decrease the AC mains impedance between devices in the audio system. Many people have power conditioners that as a byproduct of filtering line noise significantly INCREASE impedance between outlets. My recommendation is to get rid of these power distribution devices and use a simple power strip that just has wires between outlets. No filters, no MOVs.

 

BUT that can lead to a situation where noise from the rest of the house and neighborhood can get into the audio system and it leaves the system unprotected from AC line surges.

 

This is where my recommendation of a SPECIFIC type of isolation transformer comes in, these have extremely low inter-winding capacitance and carefully designed magnetics which result in a very high amount of noise suppression AND very good surge suppression in one simple device. Most isolation transformers do NOT have these parameters.

 

This is NOT the only way to do this, there are other devices that filter the line noise and provide surge suppression, BUT it needs to be something that you can drive the power strip with.

 

So look at your power conditioner, if there is ANYTHING other than wire between outlets you will not have the lowest possible impedance between audio devices. If the power conditioner just has its "filtration" upstream of any outlets and just wire between outlets it will probably give good results.

 

But be aware that very few power conditioners will be as effective as the specific isolation transformers mentioned.

 

So a few ways you can do this:

 

a power conditioner with all the filtration/surge suppression before any outlets and all outlets connected with just wire.

 

A filtration/ surge suppression device with a simple power strip plugged in.

 

A special isolation transformer being used as a surge suppressor/filter with a simple power strip plugged in.

 

The third option is, in my opinion, the best way to go for most people.

 

This should give you a way to determine whether a particular system meets my criteria.

 

NOTE I am NOT saying you HAVE to do any of this!!!!! The LPS-1 is a very effective tool for breaking some leakage loops, the above is a way to decrease the negative sonic impact of other leakage loops which cannot be broken with an LPS-1, such as a DAC with its own PS, preamp, poweramp etc. Once you hear what dealing with some leakage loops, which the LPS-1 can do, you might want to think about decreasing the impact of others. This is a way to do that.

 

John S.

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Thanks for bring clarity (as usual) to the big picture.

I quoted/pasted your entire above post into the other active thread on isolation transformers, so any discussion of same can continue over there.

 

Also effected a copy-pasta on the AC Filtering...etc thread as my own AC Filter is built upon a power strip where all the outlet GND connect to that power strip's GND rail but filtering occurs between the strip and each outlet's Live + Neutral (does that affect impedance or leakage currents?).

 

Trying to keep up in between learning and trying to build a Linear PSU for our external HDD based on John's original SB Touch LPSU design :D

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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Also effected a copy-pasta on the AC Filtering...etc thread as my own AC Filter is built upon a power strip where all the outlet GND connect to that power strip's GND rail but filtering occurs between the strip and each outlet's Live + Neutral (does that affect impedance or leakage currents?).

 

Trying to keep up in between learning and trying to build a Linear PSU for our external HDD based on John's original SB Touch LPSU design :D

 

Yes the separate filtering to each outlet increases impedance between outlets, this is what is to be avoided.

 

The traditional view is that noise between neutral and hot is what matters, it gets injected back into the mains from the PS in each box, so you WANT to add filtration between outlets. BUT this is ignoring leakage loops, my experience from working with this is that the leakage loops produce far more SQ degradation than the actual noise between neutral and hot.

 

BTW the filters do not increase leakage currents, they increase the impedance which causes increased voltage noise from the leakage current flowing through them. It is just Ohms law E=IR, decrease R and E decreases.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the talk about filters decreasing the current capability to amps causing SQ degradation is really about impedance increase and leakage loops.

 

John S.

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Yes the separate filtering to each outlet increases impedance between outlets, this is what is to be avoided.

 

The traditional view is that noise between neutral and hot is what matters, it gets injected back into the mains from the PS in each box, so you WANT to add filtration between outlets. BUT this is ignoring leakage loops, my experience from working with this is that the leakage loops produce far more SQ degradation than the actual noise between neutral and hot.

BTW the filters do not increase leakage currents, they increase the impedance which causes increased voltage noise from the leakage current flowing through them. It is just Ohms law E=IR, decrease R and E decreases.

I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the talk about filters decreasing the current capability to amps causing SQ degradation is really about impedance increase and leakage loops.

 

Thanks a lot, John. Looks like I will have to copy-paste this one as well! :D

 

This will be useful for me to try and understand the underlying mechanisms and possibly further inform my design for the setup.

 

Also interesting to me with regards to leakage currents was one of your original posts on your Linear Regulated PSU for the SBT, where you mentioned you tested several 'well-designed' SMPSes but none came close to the LR PSU one. Could have been Leakage Currents as well there, makes sense.

 

With regards to instantaneous current and filtering and impedance, perhaps that explains why some recommend parallel filtering rather than inline?

 

Looks like I need to learn much more about all this.

 

I have come to the conclusion that I'll probably need to build a new computer and actually build a fully linear PSU for it or else get one of those motherboards with a DC input like ASRock does and use a simple Linear PSU for it, rather than just try to minimise the AC detrimental effects internal to the SMPS in the iMac with my AC Filter box.

 

Not to mention dealing with the Modem, the HDD power supplies, the new Wi-Fi router I just received from my ISP (not connected yet).

 

And perhaps the last frontier will be to power RAM with linear instead of switching, if such a thing can indeed be done and done simply.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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Not to mention dealing with the Modem, the HDD power supplies, the new Wi-Fi router I just received from my ISP (not connected yet).

 

Not to mention the monitor, which also normally uses a cheap and nasty SMPS plugpack and is connected directly to the PC !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Sandy, you have monitor connected to your music PC?

 

I don't have the luxury of , or the room for a specialised PC for music. I have needed to minimise non essential programs at start up. As it is a general purpose W10/64 PC which is also used for video editing and conversions etc. I have had to pay a great deal more attention to the PSU areas and internal cabling etc.as well as disconnecting the PC from the Broadband Router when ripping or doing audio conversions. I now use a push button 4 input switchbox for that, as Cat.5e cables don't like too many reinsertions and will eventually cause problems including loss of Internet connectivity.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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I don't have the luxury of , or the room for a specialised PC for music. I have needed to minimise non essential programs at start up. As it is a general purpose W10/64 PC which is also used for video editing and conversions etc. I have had to pay a great deal more attention to the PSU areas and internal cabling etc.as well as disconnecting the PC from the Broadband Router when ripping or doing audio conversions. I now use a push button 4 input switchbox for that, as Cat.5e cables don't like too many reinsertions and will eventually cause problems including loss of Internet connectivity.

Got it, thanks.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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  • 1 month later...

I've been running my MicroRendu with an iFi PS into a Marantz SA8005 USB-DAC with no problems. Just received my UltraCap PS and while I've been enjoying the sound, I 've been experiencing annoying random dropouts. These occur every 30 seconds to a minute or so. I unplugged the PS from my power conditioner and went straight into the wall. The problem persists. I have the UltraCap set to 7v output into the MR. This problem did not occur with the iFi. Any suggestions welcome.

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I've been running my MicroRendu with an iFi PS into a Marantz SA8005 USB-DAC with no problems. Just received my UltraCap PS and while I've been enjoying the sound, I 've been experiencing annoying random dropouts. These occur every 30 seconds to a minute or so. I unplugged the PS from my power conditioner and went straight into the wall. The problem persists. I have the UltraCap set to 7v output into the MR. This problem did not occur with the iFi. Any suggestions welcome.

 

I recently bought some somewhat inexpensive Ebay LPS's from Zero Zone to power my two Uptone LPS-1 units. The Zero Zone's have LED displays for voltage, and one of the two units has a hard time keeping the Uptone LPS-1's charged adequately - the LED voltage dips from 9V down to 3V until the LPS-1 shifts into its full charge mode - thus turning off its output and the item it's powering shutting down. I'm pretty sure my situation is that the current draw from the LPS-1 is more than the Ebay power supply can provide on a consistent basis.

 

It might be that your iFi can't keep up with the LPS-1 demands. I'd check if this is happening with your LPS-1 and microRendu. Do you know which version of the iFi yours is? I think there's a version that has less current capability than the others.

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It might be that your iFi can't keep up with the LPS-1 demands. I'd check if this is happening with your LPS-1 and microRendu. Do you know which version of the iFi yours is? I think there's a version that has less current capability than the others.

 

Sorry not to be clearer: I'm using the MeanWell SMPS supplied by Uptone. The iFi has been removed from the system, although if I can't find a solution to this problem it will be going right back in...These dropouts are a dealbreaker. Wondering if I got a bum unit from Uptone...

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Sorry not to be clearer: I'm using the MeanWell SMPS supplied by Uptone. The iFi has been removed from the system, although if I can't find a solution to this problem it will be going right back in...These dropouts are a dealbreaker. Wondering if I got a bum unit from Uptone...

 

I see. Well then I got nothing. Sorry. Hopefully Alex or JS will be in touch soon. Have you contacted Alex yet?

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I've been running my MicroRendu with an iFi PS into a Marantz SA8005 USB-DAC with no problems. Just received my UltraCap PS and while I've been enjoying the sound, I 've been experiencing annoying random dropouts. These occur every 30 seconds to a minute or so. I unplugged the PS from my power conditioner and went straight into the wall. The problem persists. I have the UltraCap set to 7v output into the MR. This problem did not occur with the iFi. Any suggestions welcome.

 

Hi:

 

Sorry to hear you are experiencing difficulty. Please position the LPS-1 so that its back faces you so you can observe the status LED indicator. Does it at any time during operation (after boot up when you are playing music) turn red? If not, then the cause of the problem is not the LPS-1.

 

The only thing that will cause the LED to go red—and the output voltage to drop to zero while the LPS-1 continuously checks the load status (see the instruction booklet)—is if the output load (in your case the combination of the microRendu and the Marantz DAC the mR is providing 5V to) exceeds about 1.1 amp.

 

Please retest and let us know what you observe.

 

Thanks,

 

--Alex C.

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Seems to be a problem with the MicroRendu and Roon/Tidal. Began after powering down the MR to switch from the iFi to the UltraCap, ergo my erroneous assumption that it was the UltraCap. Something appears to have gone wrong when the MR powered back up...am troubleshooting now. Thanks.

 

Can you please give us some more information about how your system is connected, what mode you are using in the microRendu etc.

 

It's very important that we know if you are running in NAA mode (Roon sending its output to HQP which sends to the microRendu configured as an NAA)

 

It is also very important to know if you are using DSD and if so are you using DoP or native interface.

 

On the connectivity side what is between the microRendu and the DAC, is it just a USB cable or are you using a DDC and feeding S/PDIF or I2S to the DAC? On the Ethernet side are you using wired Ethernet connections? What is the cable connected to, a switch, a router etc. Are you using an Ethernet cable with a shield that is carried through to the boxes on both ends?

 

I'm asking all this because there are some connections that can be right on the edge of working and changing a power supply can push it over the edge (either way). It is frequently easy to make such a connection much more robust so power supply changes don't cause the effects you are seeing.

 

John S.

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I posted a similar thread in the Roon Community, which I updated earlier. Will do the same here. To cut to the chase: The ghosts in the machine fixed themselves after rebooting the lot.

 

MacBook as Roon Core running OS 10.12.1, using RoonReady for MicroRendu> Apple Airport Extreme hardwired to MicroRendu via Cat6 cable>MR powered by UltraCap and MeanWell SMPS>USB cable from MR to USB DAC input on Marantz SA8005. In other words, as simple a setup as could be imagined.

 

As mentioned, the problem made the system unlistenable. Dropouts every ten seconds or so, a disturbing digital hash, much distortion especially on high notes (massed female voices). After rebooting and powercycling and restarting Roon, the problem was gone.

 

How/Why? No clue.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Hi:

 

Sorry to hear you are experiencing difficulty. Please position the LPS-1 so that its back faces you so you can observe the status LED indicator. Does it at any time during operation (after boot up when you are playing music) turn red? If not, then the cause of the problem is not the LPS-1.

 

The only thing that will cause the LED to go red—and the output voltage to drop to zero while the LPS-1 continuously checks the load status (see the instruction booklet)—is if the output load (in your case the combination of the microRendu and the Marantz DAC the mR is providing 5V to) exceeds about 1.1 amp.

 

Please retest and let us know what you observe.

 

Thanks,

 

--Alex C.

 

Hi Alex,

 

I was having problems with my microRendu running with the LPS-1 (hangups, freezes,dropouts) so I checked the red light and it would blink occasionally so I went back to my CIAudio 9V linear and all that stopped. I was running a BelCanto U-Link from the microRendu so I guess the combo would draw too much under any heavy software operation on the microRendu. I could not update or reboot among other things.

 

The LPS-1 is now in my bedroom system running my Regen connected to an ARCAM rDAC. No problems there so far.

 

Happy Holidays,

 

Bob

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Hi Alex,

 

I was having problems with my microRendu running with the LPS-1 (hangups, freezes,dropouts) so I checked the red light and it would blink occasionally so I went back to my CIAudio 9V linear and all that stopped. I was running a BelCanto U-Link from the microRendu so I guess the combo would draw too much under any heavy software operation on the microRendu. I could not update or reboot among other things.

 

 

Hi Bob:

 

Well any properly-speced USB device should never draw more than 500mA from the VBUS.

So for a microRendu>BelCanto uLink combo to overdraw (more than 1.1A) an LPS-1 to get it to shut off, the uLink would need to be drawing pretty much the full 500mA (0.5A) ad the microRendu would have to be really working.

What software mode do you use the microRendu in? I know it does not work/draw very hard as an NAA; I don't know about the other modes, but we have not had other reports of this.

 

And to be clear, the LPS-1 will not just flash a red light without actually turning off the voltage. As indicated in the User Guide:

Flashing red (five red pulses, then a brief pulse of green) means that your connected device is drawing more than a continuous 1.1 amps. The LPS-1 will shut off its output voltage and then return to solid green once the load is reduced.

 

Let us know if you need any additional assistance. I am always here to help! :)

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Hi Bob:

 

Well any properly-speced USB device should never draw more than 500mA from the VBUS.

So for a microRendu>BelCanto uLink combo to overdraw (more than 1.1A) an LPS-1 to get it to shut off, the uLink would need to be drawing pretty much the full 500mA (0.5A) ad the microRendu would have to be really working.

What software mode do you use the microRendu in? I know it does not work/draw very hard as an NAA; I don't know about the other modes, but we have not had other reports of this.

 

And to be clear, the LPS-1 will not just flash a red light without actually turning off the voltage. As indicated in the User Guide:

Flashing red (five red pulses, then a brief pulse of green) means that your connected device is drawing more than a continuous 1.1 amps. The LPS-1 will shut off its output voltage and then return to solid green once the load is reduced.

 

Let us know if you need any additional assistance. I am always here to help! :)

 

Hi Alex, I use the Squeezelite output mode. What is odd is that when I first got the LPS-1 this did not happen. It started happening about a week or so ago and it took me a while to discover what was going on. At first my attempts to update the microRendu were failing with the unit stopping the process, then I noticed that any reboot was likely to fail and software commands like restart LMS would freeze the unit. I thought it might be a very short power drop off as the unit did stay online but the software became unusable and even though the unit was powered it became unreachable on sonicOrbiter so I had to physically disconnect it and repower.

 

I decided to check the LPS-1 light on a hunch and as the unit is some distance from the computer I use to control it, I noticed that the light would be red or amber or green by the time I could get to it. When I went back to my 9V linear supply all worked normally again. I know that this is very odd as the ULink is only supposed to use 200ma/5V which is one watt.

 

Right now I have the LPS-1 on my Regen which is connected to an ARCAM rDAC in my bedroom system and it seems to be working well there. The LPS-1 is being charged by a 9V/2A ifi in the bedroom system. When it was in the main system it was being charged by the CIAudio 9V/2A linear supply that I had connected directly to the microRendu before I got the LPS-1. I suppose there is a possibility that the CIAudio unit is too weak to handle the charging duty.

 

Let me know if you have any ideas.

 

Thanks for you reply,

 

Bob

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I thought it might be a very short power drop off as the unit did stay online but the software became unusable and even though the unit was powered it became unreachable on sonicOrbiter so I had to physically disconnect it and repower.

 

I decided to check the LPS-1 light on a hunch and as the unit is some distance from the computer I use to control it, I noticed that the light would be red or amber or green by the time I could get to it.

 

Two thoughts Bob:

a) You really need to face the LPS-1 so that you can see the LED. There really is not such thing as a "short power drop off" for the LPS-1. If overcurrent occurs, the output will drop (okay, it does not drop to zero instantly), the LED will flash red for about 4 seconds, then green to retry/test for if the load has gone down to acceptable level. It will then stay green and output full voltage if the conditions are okay. At no time during that process will the LED turn amber as you report. If that is happening, then it means your LPS-1 is going through a full reboot cycle--perhaps if the charging supply is not up to the task.

 

b) Based on your report, it is quite possible that your CIAudio 9V supply is not up to the task. John has explained elsewhere that the sort of load the LPS-1 represents to its charging supply is variable and demanding. We do not guarantee function of the unit with third-party supplies, and the only way to properly diagnose what is going on is for you to use our supplied Mean Well 7.5V/2.93A/22W unit and to report accurately on the LED indication during operation.

 

All the best,

 

--Alex C.

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Two thoughts Bob:

a) You really need to face the LPS-1 so that you can see the LED. There really is not such thing as a "short power drop off" for the LPS-1. If overcurrent occurs, the output will drop (okay, it does not drop to zero instantly), the LED will flash red for about 4 seconds, then green to retry/test for if the load has gone down to acceptable level. It will then stay green and output full voltage if the conditions are okay. At no time during that process will the LED turn amber as you report. If that is happening, then it means your LPS-1 is going through a full reboot cycle--perhaps if the charging supply is not up to the task.

 

b) Based on your report, it is quite possible that your CIAudio 9V supply is not up to the task. John has explained elsewhere that the sort of load the LPS-1 represents to its charging supply is variable and demanding. We do not guarantee function of the unit with third-party supplies, and the only way to properly diagnose what is going on is for you to use our supplied Mean Well 7.5V/2.93A/22W unit and to report accurately on the LED indication during operation.

 

All the best,

 

--Alex C.

Hi Alex, I think that it is the CIAudio that I am using that is not up to the task. I am not going to worry about it because the LPS-1 is working great in my bedroom system with the Regen and it makes an even bigger difference there than it did in the main system as the Regen had been powered by the ifi which is now charging the LPS-1. I mean really quite noticeable immediately.

 

I will probably order another LPS-1 for the main system and use the Meanwell with it. For the moment the CIAudio is powering the microRendu and it is pretty good on its own. The LPS-1 is better so I will go that route when funds allow.

 

Thanks,

 

Bob

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Two thoughts Bob:

a) You really need to face the LPS-1 so that you can see the LED. There really is not such thing as a "short power drop off" for the LPS-1. If overcurrent occurs, the output will drop (okay, it does not drop to zero instantly), the LED will flash red for about 4 seconds, then green to retry/test for if the load has gone down to acceptable level. It will then stay green and output full voltage if the conditions are okay. At no time during that process will the LED turn amber as you report. If that is happening, then it means your LPS-1 is going through a full reboot cycle--perhaps if the charging supply is not up to the task.

 

b) Based on your report, it is quite possible that your CIAudio 9V supply is not up to the task. John has explained elsewhere that the sort of load the LPS-1 represents to its charging supply is variable and demanding. We do not guarantee function of the unit with third-party supplies, and the only way to properly diagnose what is going on is for you to use our supplied Mean Well 7.5V/2.93A/22W unit and to report accurately on the LED indication during operation.

 

All the best,

 

--Alex C.

I got some fairly inexpensive Chinese linear power supplies with 30VA R-core transformers that were spec'd as over 3A into 9V. The numbers John and Alex have posted on the Uptone website is that 2A supply should be sufficient at 9V. Well, these 30VA supplies can't support an LPS-1 powering an FMC at 5V/1A. They can support powering an LPS-1 feeding my microRendu, but not the FMC with higher current demand on the LPS-1. It can charge the LPS-1 through initial boot cycle, but only makes it about 30 seconds before needing to power down and reboot.

 

It seems to me that the amperages posted by Alex/John are not strictly true in all circumstances - either that or the Chinese LPS's that I bought can't do anywhere near what they were specified. But variable and demanding load on the charging supply certainly fits with my experiences with the LPS-1's, for sure.

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